I see what you mean. But I disagree. Interdependent Origination assures that the negative kamma is indeed ours.
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Was the Buddha a vegetarian?
- Thread starter MountainPine
- Start date
My sweet little kitty is a notorious mass murderer of anything smaller than her that she
can catch.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
My sweet little kitty is a notorious mass murderer of anything smaller than her that she
can catch.
I was thinking about getting a cat again, but decided against it partly for that reason.
Mine has a habit of leaving her leftovers (half eaten mouse carcass) at the threshold of my front door. I guess she's just trying to share.
But that's the nature of the predator. They have no choice. They are designed to kill and eat, unlike we as omnivores.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Sure, it's not the animal's fault.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
This is from the book, The Abomination of Desolation, I've been promoting on RF. Here is what it says about B12:
A.1b (Where will I get my) Vitamin B12?
Even as the question of where he gets his protein is the most common, the question of where a vegan will get an adequate supply of the vitamin B 12 (cobalamin) is routinely levied as the most valid objection (by far) which a person can raise in regards to the idea that a well-planned vegan diet can provide all our nutritional needs, especially considering that B12 is thought to be the only vitamin which cannot be gleaned from a vegan diet, and as supplements are also typically made from animal carcasses. (By “well-planned,” we simply mean a wide variety of plant sources—it does not need to be meticulously detailed or constructed, only adequately informed, which takes minimal effort and minimal preparation time when it actually comes time to prepare the food.) So, as with anything, make sure you check the label before you purchase any supplements, to make sure they are suitable. And our final position is not that you should avoid B12 supplements, but that you do not need them—you just need to eat right. The only reasons we even condone them in this one case are that there is so much controversy over the issue that we do not wish to offend all the vegans who have already made up their minds about it, and that it is actually quite impractical for most people (omnivores, vegetarians and vegans alike) to get sufficient amounts for optimal health, short of eating dirt.
As this is an issue which has garnered so much attention, the question of vegans being B12 deficient has been adequately dealt with elsewhere, and we defer to the article at lifesave.org (sources: 872, 873) for the specifics of our argument against the premise that vegans are necessarily deficient. However, we will not neglect to address the underlying issue here, as it is predictably the source of much misinformation. As with other (alleged) deficiencies, most of the propaganda concerning B12 deficiency is just hype, driven by profit incentives, but for whatever reason there is not a lot of good information available to dispel the hype, and we really had to dig for it. So, given all these facts, this particular objection requires more explaining than the others.
B12 deficiency is quite a serious concern, as it is thought to result in anemia, heart disease, nervous system degeneration or amenorrhea (missing a menstruation, which commonly results from eating disorders, especially deficiency disorders like anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa). However, none of these conditions are actually fatal, as the diseases which eating animal products are, and some of which (like Alzheimer’s) are 100% fatal. The one which can become fatal is heart disease, when it leads to heart attacks and strokes, and we can just throw the risk of that one out in this context, as it is already established that heart disease cannot result from a diet that does not cause inflammation, so that vegans are least at risk of it among all demographics. This is true whether the blood cholesterol levels are elevated as a result of inflammation or dietary cholesterol intake. The only way for a long-term vegan’s cholesterol levels to be comparable to a meat-eater’s is by regularly eating foods which he is allergic to, such as someone with Crohn’s disease eating yeast or other inflammation factors. However, Crohn’s is a gastrointestinal disease; it is difficult to come up with a suitable comparison for the circulatory system in regards to how dietary animal proteins lead to heart disease. Theoretically, it is possible, through the right combinations of inflammation factors, such as a diet of nuts for someone who is allergic to them, but realistically it is impossible, because someone who was trying to subsist on something he was allergic to would have acute (rather than chronic) reactions, and would die without constant medical treatment.
So, heart disease aside, the fact that veganism actually helps prevent the blood-related disorders that are associated with B12 deficiency should be evident in the fact that the risk of each is not nearly as great among vegans as it is among milk drinkers. And, of course, regularly consuming milk/dairy is the surest way to give yourself heart disease, and animal proteins of all kinds which are the culprits of all nervous system degeneration (most especially of neurodegenerative disorders, which are a very serious and very common outcome of an omnivorous diet), as we have explained in Chapter 2. In all honesty, we really think that the risk of either anemia or amenorrhea is negligible in comparison with heart disease, which is the number one cause of death in Western societies. Amenorrhea, which cannot even effect men, nor women who are not of reproductive age, could just as easily result from being healthy as from being unhealthy, as it typically results from hormonal imbalances induced by the rigorous physical training regimen or professional athletes. And that really just leaves anemia as the major concern for vegans.
First of all, it is not actually B12 deficiency which causes pernicious anemia. That results, rather, from deficiency of the intrinsic factor secreted by the stomach, which is necessary for B12 absorption. In the treatment of patients with pernicious anemia, B12 is taken as a supplement or injected into the bloodstream in order to compensate for this deficiency (that is, for the deficiency of the intrinsic factor), in the same way that insulin-deficient diabetics inject insulin in order to compensate for their insulin deficiency, even though all it would probably take for most diabetics to cure their diabetes altogether is to become vegans for about three weeks. (B 12, by this analogy, is comparable to blood glucose, whereas the intrinsic factor is comparable to insulin.) All that B12 treatment for anemia really amounts to is adding more of what is needed to compensate for the fact that the body cannot use what is there, because its ability to absorb it has diminished on account of chronic malnourishment. This malnourishment resulting in “B 12 deficiency” (more appropriately termed ‘intrinsic factor dependency’) is actually the long-term result of insufficient intake of cobalt, which is acquired in livestock from the soil of the pasture. Consequently, B12 supplements are routinely given to farm animals that are not allowed to graze.
Secondly, the widely-accepted belief that B12 does not exist in (and therefore cannot be acquired from) plants, upon which the objection is entirely based, is not true. It is common knowledge amount nutritionists that vegans are no more B12 deficient than anyone else. And this is simply a matter of problems with absorption (i.e. not having enough cobalt in one’s diet). The Institute of Medicine recommends everyone over the age of 50 take B12 supplements (or that they eat B12 fortified foods) due to the problems with B12 absorption (source: 874), but even this just shows how no one is looking at the underlying cause of malnutrition, and that supplements are only even advocated in lieu of a proper diet. In any case, vegans are not the only ones who are typically B12 deficient, and you will not find statistical analyses showing that meat-eaters are less likely to be deficient, because the numbers for both groups are the same. As for the viability of a vegan acquiring this elusive vitamin in his diet, recent studies have confirmed that B12 is present to varying degrees in raw mushrooms, as presented by the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (source: 875). In fact, shiitake mushrooms (perhaps the most commonly eaten mushrooms worldwide) are actually a more plentiful source of B12 than milk and fish. While mushrooms are not actually a reliable source, as it depends on growing conditions, this is still clear evidence that the need can be met by plant sources, provided that the soil is not destroyed. And, just to preempt the intuitive response that an omnivore might levy, this is not a matter of the “right type” of B vitamin, either. Researchers at the Centre for Plant and Food Science in Sydney have also recently concluded that B12 was present to varying degrees in the same form as found in foods traditionally known to be high in B12 (i.e. meats). (source: 876)
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MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
Continued ...
The only known natural source of cobalamin synthesis (called cyanocobalamin) is in microorganisms that grow in species of plants such as mushrooms, algae and mosses. Neither plants nor animals produce B 12, and this is exactly why both vegans and omnivores have a hard time getting it. By the same token, so do all other animals, and animal flesh is not actually a good source of it. Again, any animal source of B12 is only secondary, as with all other nutrients, but in this case, it is synthesized by microorganisms rather than plants. There is no practical difference, however, as the B12 which livestock ingest still comes from plants. Cyanocobalamin bacteria are aerobic, meaning they need air/oxygen and sunlight for their environment, and water and plants to feed on. Like other aerobic organisms, they do not survive in the anaerobic conditions of animal guts. When you eat animal flesh, the B12 you are getting is actually their excrement.
Still, the cuts of flesh which meat-eaters consume do not contain B12. What do contain it are the internal organs—particularly the liver, heart and kidneys. However, this is only because of the concentration of the bacteria; the vitamin is synthesized by the bacteria, not the animal itself. So the liver and the kidneys are good sources because the microorganisms have been ingested and entered the bloodstream of the victim, and its body is in the process of filtering them out—as waste. Obviously, these are not live bacteria at this stage, and we have cause to wonder why anyone would think that having an abundance of them in one’s bloodstream is a good idea. The fact that it is only possible to get them from animal products by way of blood, urine or feces ought to be a clue as to whether God intended it for us or not. However, it will be argued that plants are an equally poor source of B12. This is generally true, but it also assumes that the plants have been washed, and that the bacteria are therefore removed from the source, which is not necessarily applicable to every situation, though it is perhaps still advisable to wash one’s food, especially considering that most produce is grown with sewage (and organic produce is grown with bone meal), and you just do not know where it has been unless you grew it yourself. But this only points to the fact that ideally, people should be gardening to grow their own food, and that even the act of washing one’s vegetables is unnatural and counterproductive to health.
Furthermore—and this is where the objection falls apart—we hardly need any of this vitamin at all to sustain optimal health. The RDA for vitamin B12 is only 2.4 (or 3) micrograms, and the body’s cells are extremely conservative and efficient in its use. Only waste bile actually disposes of the body’s B12 stores, meaning, essentially, that B12 loss only actually happens by way of consumption of animal proteins, as that is what causes excess bile production. Deficiency can also result from digestive disorders such as Crohn’s disease or celiac disease, but not simply from being a vegan. If anything, the opposite is true; carbon monoxide is known to inhibit B 12 uptake, so avoiding oxidants is important for B12 absorption. And that necessarily means that the less antioxidants you have in your diet (which you can only get from plants), and the more ROS you have in it (which typically come from acidic foods), the more likely it will be that your body will not be able to make use of whatever B12 you consume.
Regardless of all the recent hype generated by the low-carb faddists, it has been known ever since its initial discovery that meat-eaters are more likely to be B12 deficient. The main problem is that the body requires so little of it that it could hardly be measured half a century ago, so there were no assays to determine whether foodstuffs in nutritional analyses contained sufficient quantities. The companies that are marketing their supplements now (and, therefore, that are informing the public) are relying on data which have literally been obsolete for decades. Due to advances in technology since then, current books on nutrition now state that there is B 12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, (source: 877) and that includes most plant foods, including not just dark green or orange-colored fruits and vegetables, but things like beans and fortified cereals or milks, as well.
Even the 3 mcg figure is unreasonable, as it is taken not from scientific analysis, but from hematological data demonstrating a rough norm among omnivorous humans, which is anything but an indication of what the true amounts ought to be. Even still, the low overall requirement means an extremely low concentration of B12 is sufficient for our dietary needs, and for practical purposes, can simply be gained from eating the right mushrooms, or even things like corn or alfalfa. As a general rule, the more surface area of a particular that is consumed, or the more contact which this surface has with the soil, the more B12-producing bacteria can be assumed to grow on it. So we are once again led back to the conclusion that the ideal source is leafy green vegetables, or beats and carrots (especially if the greens are eaten or juiced). Also, cyanobalamin bacteria are destroyed by pesticides, so using organic vegetables is as essential as leaving them unwashed is, as the modification of the plants is done specifically to make them resilient to insects and bacteria. For these reasons, we believe that the best source of B12 is what livestock would normally get it from if left to themselves: grass, which should be juiced. On the other hand, many nondairy milks are fortified with vitamins B12 and D 2, and with calcium, the other nutrients typically found in or used to fortify cow milk, so these provide a much healthier safer alternative.
The alternative, as we have stated over and over, is to get higher concentrations from the disease-infested corpses, breast milk and menstruations of shamelessly tortured sentient creatures, which inevitably leads to poor health, disease and premature, agonizing death. It is true that excessive consumption of B12 from highly concentrated sources like rat intestines and swine livers could potentially cover the loss attributable to malabsorption and inflammation factors like bile production and intestinal bleeding, but this in no way implies that even these, much less animal flesh in general, is a better source when all the other factors are considered. As with the role of insulin in glucose transport, the major factor to consider is not how much of the vitamin (or of the bacteria) is consumed, but how well the body uses it (how well the intrinsic factor is able to do its job, without encountering obstacles, such as damage to the pancreas, the presence of pharmaceutical chemicals, infection or internal bleeding).
In short, the principle cause for poor B12 transport (commonly mistaken for B 12 deficiency) is the same as any other: inflammation due to the presence of animal proteins. So, without a doubt, the best way to make sure you are not deficient is to go vegan. Beyond that, if you want to take supplements to be safe, we do not see any harm in that. However, the necessity of such an act depends on how far removed you are from a decent food source, and if that is a real cause for concern for you, then B12 deficiency really ought to be the least of your concerns. Truly, if there was anything actually wrong or inherently dangerous about a plant-based diet, then the omnivores would have found a better objection by now. Their failure, after all, is not due to a lack of trying.
The only known natural source of cobalamin synthesis (called cyanocobalamin) is in microorganisms that grow in species of plants such as mushrooms, algae and mosses. Neither plants nor animals produce B 12, and this is exactly why both vegans and omnivores have a hard time getting it. By the same token, so do all other animals, and animal flesh is not actually a good source of it. Again, any animal source of B12 is only secondary, as with all other nutrients, but in this case, it is synthesized by microorganisms rather than plants. There is no practical difference, however, as the B12 which livestock ingest still comes from plants. Cyanocobalamin bacteria are aerobic, meaning they need air/oxygen and sunlight for their environment, and water and plants to feed on. Like other aerobic organisms, they do not survive in the anaerobic conditions of animal guts. When you eat animal flesh, the B12 you are getting is actually their excrement.
Still, the cuts of flesh which meat-eaters consume do not contain B12. What do contain it are the internal organs—particularly the liver, heart and kidneys. However, this is only because of the concentration of the bacteria; the vitamin is synthesized by the bacteria, not the animal itself. So the liver and the kidneys are good sources because the microorganisms have been ingested and entered the bloodstream of the victim, and its body is in the process of filtering them out—as waste. Obviously, these are not live bacteria at this stage, and we have cause to wonder why anyone would think that having an abundance of them in one’s bloodstream is a good idea. The fact that it is only possible to get them from animal products by way of blood, urine or feces ought to be a clue as to whether God intended it for us or not. However, it will be argued that plants are an equally poor source of B12. This is generally true, but it also assumes that the plants have been washed, and that the bacteria are therefore removed from the source, which is not necessarily applicable to every situation, though it is perhaps still advisable to wash one’s food, especially considering that most produce is grown with sewage (and organic produce is grown with bone meal), and you just do not know where it has been unless you grew it yourself. But this only points to the fact that ideally, people should be gardening to grow their own food, and that even the act of washing one’s vegetables is unnatural and counterproductive to health.
Furthermore—and this is where the objection falls apart—we hardly need any of this vitamin at all to sustain optimal health. The RDA for vitamin B12 is only 2.4 (or 3) micrograms, and the body’s cells are extremely conservative and efficient in its use. Only waste bile actually disposes of the body’s B12 stores, meaning, essentially, that B12 loss only actually happens by way of consumption of animal proteins, as that is what causes excess bile production. Deficiency can also result from digestive disorders such as Crohn’s disease or celiac disease, but not simply from being a vegan. If anything, the opposite is true; carbon monoxide is known to inhibit B 12 uptake, so avoiding oxidants is important for B12 absorption. And that necessarily means that the less antioxidants you have in your diet (which you can only get from plants), and the more ROS you have in it (which typically come from acidic foods), the more likely it will be that your body will not be able to make use of whatever B12 you consume.
Regardless of all the recent hype generated by the low-carb faddists, it has been known ever since its initial discovery that meat-eaters are more likely to be B12 deficient. The main problem is that the body requires so little of it that it could hardly be measured half a century ago, so there were no assays to determine whether foodstuffs in nutritional analyses contained sufficient quantities. The companies that are marketing their supplements now (and, therefore, that are informing the public) are relying on data which have literally been obsolete for decades. Due to advances in technology since then, current books on nutrition now state that there is B 12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, (source: 877) and that includes most plant foods, including not just dark green or orange-colored fruits and vegetables, but things like beans and fortified cereals or milks, as well.
Even the 3 mcg figure is unreasonable, as it is taken not from scientific analysis, but from hematological data demonstrating a rough norm among omnivorous humans, which is anything but an indication of what the true amounts ought to be. Even still, the low overall requirement means an extremely low concentration of B12 is sufficient for our dietary needs, and for practical purposes, can simply be gained from eating the right mushrooms, or even things like corn or alfalfa. As a general rule, the more surface area of a particular that is consumed, or the more contact which this surface has with the soil, the more B12-producing bacteria can be assumed to grow on it. So we are once again led back to the conclusion that the ideal source is leafy green vegetables, or beats and carrots (especially if the greens are eaten or juiced). Also, cyanobalamin bacteria are destroyed by pesticides, so using organic vegetables is as essential as leaving them unwashed is, as the modification of the plants is done specifically to make them resilient to insects and bacteria. For these reasons, we believe that the best source of B12 is what livestock would normally get it from if left to themselves: grass, which should be juiced. On the other hand, many nondairy milks are fortified with vitamins B12 and D 2, and with calcium, the other nutrients typically found in or used to fortify cow milk, so these provide a much healthier safer alternative.
The alternative, as we have stated over and over, is to get higher concentrations from the disease-infested corpses, breast milk and menstruations of shamelessly tortured sentient creatures, which inevitably leads to poor health, disease and premature, agonizing death. It is true that excessive consumption of B12 from highly concentrated sources like rat intestines and swine livers could potentially cover the loss attributable to malabsorption and inflammation factors like bile production and intestinal bleeding, but this in no way implies that even these, much less animal flesh in general, is a better source when all the other factors are considered. As with the role of insulin in glucose transport, the major factor to consider is not how much of the vitamin (or of the bacteria) is consumed, but how well the body uses it (how well the intrinsic factor is able to do its job, without encountering obstacles, such as damage to the pancreas, the presence of pharmaceutical chemicals, infection or internal bleeding).
In short, the principle cause for poor B12 transport (commonly mistaken for B 12 deficiency) is the same as any other: inflammation due to the presence of animal proteins. So, without a doubt, the best way to make sure you are not deficient is to go vegan. Beyond that, if you want to take supplements to be safe, we do not see any harm in that. However, the necessity of such an act depends on how far removed you are from a decent food source, and if that is a real cause for concern for you, then B12 deficiency really ought to be the least of your concerns. Truly, if there was anything actually wrong or inherently dangerous about a plant-based diet, then the omnivores would have found a better objection by now. Their failure, after all, is not due to a lack of trying.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I think you are in spite of your beautiful post. For the first 500 years, Buddhism was a 'mata' (opinion) - Buddha mata, Jain mata and Sikh mata - and a sect of Hinduism. People venerated sannyasins and bikhkhus of all matas, just as they do now. Can I think of being disrespectful of a Bhuddhist or Jain monk or a Sikh granthi? Definitely not. Whatever people say, Hindus are tied to all the three.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
When you eat meat, you KNOW that your meat came from an animal that was murdered. Therefore your intention was for it to be killed so you could eat it. Every time people eat or buy meat, there is a demand for it. When there is a demand for it, animals die. Therefore, you demand the death of an animal when you eat it's meat whether you're thinking about its death or not. To say that no one who eats meat intends for the animal to die doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I agree. All our choices have consequences, whether we acknowledge them or not.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I think this is from a company who wants to sell B12 preparations. When I was in medical sales, we too had a mixture with B12. But what about those brahmins who have been vegetarians since pre-history? Where did they get their B12 from? And they are as healthy and hefty as anyone else? Nearly all top Indian wrestlers are traditionally vegetarians, that includes 2012 Silver medalist, Sushil Kumar, 2016 Silver medalist Sakshi Malik, Where do they get their B12 from? The wrestler diet in India is milk, clarified butter and almonds.
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MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
I think this is from a company who wants to sell B12 preparations. When I was in medical sales, we too had a mixture with B12. But what about those brahmins who have been vegetarians since pre-history? Where did they get their B12 from? And they are as healthy and hefty as anyone else? Nearly all top Indian wrestlers are traditionally vegetarians, that includes 2012 Silver medalist, Sushil Kumar, 2016 Silver medalist Sakshi Malik, Where do they get their B12 from?
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Ask Nowhere Man. He is the one saying that plant-based diets are deficient in B12. "A.1b (Where will I get my) Vitamin B12?" is the title of the article I posted, which refutes the notion that vegetarians and vegans are lacking in B12.
The science here is wrong, imho.
All evidence shows that it was specifically the act of cooking food that allowed early humans to evolve larger brains. Meat was helpful as it contained a lot of nutrients in a single take, but there is not a special ingredient in meat that inherently caused our brains to get larger.
Furthermore, our brain needs glucose more than anything, and plant foods are a good source. I think the estimate was that the brain relies on glucose for 65% of its functioning power, the rest with lipids and such.
So, our ancestors were primarily frugivores, and meat was NOT eaten as commonly as people think.
Also, this link right here is pretty amusing: http://www.livescience.com/23671-eating-meat-made-us-human.htmI
It's pretty obvious that early humans had a low life expectancy, due to predators and not getting enough food. The latter may be exactly the problem that this girl encountered, and NOT a vegan diet as the article states.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Then I am sorry for my knee-jerk reaction without reading carefully.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's not me saying that. It's what science has proven to be the case. Again you will find no vitamin B12 in any plant matter whatsoever. It dosent refute the any notion one bit. Our ancestors ate meat and animal products such as eggs for instance.
Keep on denying.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Milk and butter answers it. Animal products.I think this is from a company who wants to sell B12 preparations. When I was in medical sales, we too had a mixture with B12. But what about those brahmins who have been vegetarians since pre-history? Where did they get their B12 from? And they are as healthy and hefty as anyone else? Nearly all top Indian wrestlers are traditionally vegetarians, that includes 2012 Silver medalist, Sushil Kumar, 2016 Silver medalist Sakshi Malik, Where do they get their B12 from? The wrestler diet in India is milk, clarified butter and almonds.
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Why? You don't have to feed your cat living animals like you would if you had a snake. I give my kitty plenty of dried food, occasionally some wet food, and sometimes when I am eating a sandwich, I will share the lunch meat with her. Other than that, she eats the occasional fly or june bug that finds itself inside the apartment...
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
As I said, we do not have the concept of veganism. Wrestlers sure drink buckets of milk. Indians generally do not have any problem in digesting milk products and take them even in old age.