Was the Buddha a vegetarian?

[George-ananda]

It seems that from what I've read that the scripts actually get into the issue, and the scripts explicitly say that buying meat from a store is not the same as hunting an animal for meat, but the acknowledgement of what your debating is there. Its the scripts which disagree, depending on the school of thought, and many may adhere to it.

The scripts were written at a time before refrigeration when animals were killed with the end-eater in mind. And the scripts are saying if you were not the end-user in mind then it is acceptable. If you were the intended end-user then there is an issue. However, my point is that this scenario doesn't apply today where there is no connection to any specific end-user. The purchasers of the meat are the end user the animals were killed for.

 

[buddhist]

You can't be serious. The FDA doesn't allow meat from already deceased animals to be sold in stores. They all come from slaughterhouses.

I'm not under the jurisdiction of your FDA.

Explain why the Buddha allowed monastics to eat meat.

 

[idav]

The scripts were written at a time before refrigeration when animals were killed with the end-eater in mind. And the scripts are saying if you were not the end-user in mind then it is acceptable. If you were the intended end-user then there is an issue. However, my point is that this scenario doesn't apply today where there is no connection to any specific end-user. The purchasers of the meat are the end user the animals were killed for.

Well I'm not necessarily one to judge what religious texts people want to follow, there are certainly more concerning texts than those coming from the Buddhist religion.

 

[MountainPine]

Now that you've answered your own question.... be the judge, is it wrong to give your meat(thoughts and ideas) to those who don't want them?

How is this relevant? If Nowhere Man or anyone else isn't interested in what I have to share, then that's their choice. I was merely pointing out his hypocrisy.

I'm not under the jurisdiction of your FDA.

Explain why the Buddha allowed monastics to eat meat.

Not sure. My guess is that he may have allowed it, but didn't encourage it. Or maybe the sutras that said he did are false accounts. The Mahaparinirvana Sutra gives evidence that he didn't.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You're the one in denial since you refuse to read what I posted for you. I had the courtesy to read your source, but you won't read mine? Don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you won't bother checking out the resources you're given and then accusing your opponents of being in denial. Not only is it immature, it is also hypocritical.

You didn't resd it fully. Better note again what it says.

It was addressing the the brain/body mass ratio between early herbivores and meat eaters and noted that brain growth and development was more prevalent throughout the course of evolution for which B12 played a significant part.

You ended up going all over the board about vitamin B12 and a bunch of other nonsense not related to the focus of the article and what it was relating.

But like I mentioned, keep going on with it.

Still won't find any plants containing B12 you know. No matter how much people want to go on about it. Facts are facts.

It's through animal meat and animal products such as cheese and milk which may or may not qualify as vegetarian depending upon one's personal views.

 

[MountainPine]

I'm not under the jurisdiction of your FDA.

Why would you want to eat a carcass anyway, especially when there are other things you can eat?

 

[George-ananda]

In my view; If you encourage someone to murder you are an accomplice to the crime if the crime takes place. Except for one slight distinction/difference;

Can you guess what that is-?

Just asking -

That you are not guilty of murder; just as an accessory?

 

[Unification]

I'm not under the jurisdiction of your FDA.

Explain why the Buddha allowed monastics to eat meat.

I'd have to imagine that the inner human being would be welcome to inner thoughts and ideas of light.
Or in other words, "the spiritual being would be welcome to spiritual thoughts and ideas" of light.

 

[George-ananda]

I see the avid vegetarians pretty much avoiding this point completely in this thread.

I'm not avoiding it, I was pointing out the logical difference between involuntary killing and paying someone else to kill for you.

 

[MountainPine]

Still won't find any plants containing B12 you know

B12 is only found in bacteria in the soil, which would still be present on plants provided they are not killed with pesticides. The animals you eat get their B12 from the plants they eat. It not that meat by itself has B12, you are actually obtaining it as a digested nutrient contained in the meat of the animal who consumed the B12 while it was still alive.

 

[buddhist]

Not sure. My guess is that he may have allowed it, but didn't encourage it. Or maybe the sutras that said he did are false accounts. The Mahaparinirvana Sutra gives evidence that he didn't.

OK, then we have nothing left to debate, as we have different scriptures.

 

[Vinayaka]

B12 is only found in bacteria in the soil, which would still be present on plants provided they are not killed with pesticides. The animals you eat get their B12 from the plants they eat. It not that meat by itself has B12, you are actually obtaining it as a digested nutrient contained in the meat of the animal who consumed the B12 while it was still alive.

One step up from 'Where did you get your protein?' but just as that one died or is nearly dead from knowledge, so too will, 'Where do you get your B12?' die from the piercing vel called knowledge. If the 2 false assumptions in those 2 questions were true, this body would have ended its run 40 years back.

 

[buddhist]

Why would you want to eat a carcass anyway, especially when there are other things you can eat?

I have a genetic variation which requires me to consume long-chain fatty acids (DGLA, AA, GLA, etc.), things extremely hard to come by from only eating vegetables. Without these fats, people like me with this genetic variation can easily descend into alcoholism and other addictions and diseases (e.g. brain or nervous system not supplied with or enough of the correct fuels).

 

[buddhist]

I'm not avoiding it, I was pointing out the logical difference between involuntary killing and paying someone else to kill for you.

No, I pay someone for meat, not for them to kill it for me.
Using your reasoning, monks should also discard meat, because they were given meat which were knowingly killed for them. Yet the Buddha accepted a meat offering, and allowed such for all monks.

 

[MountainPine]

I wish I was. -

What is stopping you?

 

[Chakra]

No, I pay someone for meat, not for them to kill it for me.

Is there a way to separate the two?

 

[MountainPine]

I have a genetic variation which requires me to consume long-chain fatty acids (DGLA, AA, GLA, etc.), things extremely hard to come by from only eating vegetables. Without these fats, people like me with this genetic variation can easily descend into alcoholism and other addictions and diseases (e.g. brain or nervous system not supplied with or enough of the correct fuels).

Or you can just choose not to be an alcoholic... besides, veganism cures disease and prevents it (source 1, source 2, source 3). Have you ever heard of substitution meat?

 

[buddhist]

Is there a way to separate the two?

Indeed, like I've written throughout this thread.

My kamma applies to my intent and actions, not to the whole chain of intent and actions of others before mine.

I purchase meat with the intent to eat. The store delivers meat with the intent to sell & make a profit. The delivery person transports the meat with the intent to earn a salary. Likewise with the butcher, the animal farmer, the animal feed farmer, the seed provider, the seed-sorting equipment manufaturers, the machinists, et cetera, et cetera.

As I understand early Buddhism, I am *not* responsible for all of their intentions through the whole chain, nor are they responsible for mine either - I am only responsible for my own immediate intent and action.

 

[buddhist]

Or you can just choose not to be an alcoholic... besides, veganism cures disease and prevents it (source 1, source 2, source 3). Have you ever heard of substitution meat?

In the absence of such fatty acids, the structure of the brain and nervous system degrades dramatically over time, basically creating holes, malfunctions, mis-transmissions, and other issues.

What "substitution meat" provides the fatty acids that I need? Do you understand the difference between genetic issues in the genome, and other diseases?

 

[LuisDantas]

In my perspective, my reasoning is my way of harmonizing the Buddha's 1. precept against killing, 2. right intention, and 3. his allowance for meat-eating.

I have yet to hear from naysayers which takes all 3 points into account together, especially point 3. They're either ignoring point 3, or they are presenting a completely different idea of Buddha and Buddhism altogether. Perhaps some later sects ignore point 3? I'm not sure.

The way I see it, the Buddha is pragmatic towards the lack of control over actions of others and recognizes that dwelling too much on a mistake may be worse than the alternative.

I've heard of Dependent Origination, but not of Interdependent Origination. Care to elaborate?

It is another name for the same thing.

Under dependent origination, I am kammically responsible for my own immediate intention & action, not the whole chain of intention and actions done by others preceding, or occurring after, my own. I do not see this latter idea taught in the early suttas.

That is not how I read it. Our responsibility over the chains of intentions and actions is limited, but not always or even often only to the people we are directly in contact with.

There is a kammic duty not to encourage adharmic actions. E.g., by not creating a demand for intoxicating drugs if we can help it. Likewise for meat.