Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Isn't it interesting how you peddle pathetic over-generalizations?

Isn't it interesting that your own Tanakh says the Hebrew originally worshiped a Goddess, and were better off under her?

Nice dodge.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Isn't it interesting that your Tanakh - written by a Patriarchal religion - didn't say - the whole world worshipped a God - but instead states that, - THE WHOLE WORLD WORSHIPS THE GODDESS?

Wow ... more caps!

 

[Ingledsva]

They have dug up 100,000 naked female figures carved from rock in an age when photography had not yet been invented. Who could possibly need so many statues of naked women? It is a conundrum. They may indeed be representations of goddesses, but it doesn't sound conclusive. It also doesn't satisfactorily prove the existence of a matriarchy.

Good grief they are Goddesses.

If they are sexual - where are the male partners? Where are the sexual positions? All of these are done under later patriarchy.

*

 

[outhouse]

Good grief they are Goddesses.

Asherah had quite the status for 600 years, but she was reduced to cult status, AND was used as a fertility goddess after being gods wife.

Both El and Yahweh at times were married to her.


What needs to be taken into account, is that there were waves in her popularity in these multi cultural communities

 

[rosends]

Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

I take it that these are your quotes to demonstrate that, as you write it, "the Hebrew originally worshiped a Goddess, and were better off under her". I just wanted to point out a few things:
1. By the time of Jeremiah, the people were not known as Hebrews
2. Jer 7 presents the behavior you refer to as idolatry that developed AFTER the Jewish people had already begun to worship God. There is nothing in the verse to indicate that it predates anything -- it speaks in the present tense about what the people "do".
3. The text speaks of other objects of idolatry which are not feminine, like Molech. Why wouldn't you assume that there was prevalent god worship? Why single out goddess?
4. If you read all of Jer 44, the text makes the order of events clear -- the people didn't listen to God. The people moved to Egypt and adopted the idolatrous ways of Egypt. The people were sent many prophets with warnings, but God did not take action even though they continued to disobey. Eventually, God took action and the people didn't learn from it but thought that because they weren't punished while being idolatrous, there was nothing wrong with it. So Jeremiah makes the cause/effect relationship clear and the people are eventually punished for their idolatry.

Now you can surely claim that this is the male god figure punishing them for worshipping a female goddess. That's because it is. But to claim that the goddess worship textually predates the "God" worship or that it made them better off ignores the text.

I would love to see what other texts you have in this regard.

 

[Baladas]

Well, despite the fact that this seems to have been derailed, I will just chime in to say that I also believe Eden to be entirely allegorical.
I think that it is very possible that it was based (as Nietzsche mentioned) on oral histories recalling a time of lushness for that region.

As for these arguments regarding the mention of a goddess, I definitely find them interesting but I unfortunately don't have much to add.

 

[outhouse]

If you read all of Jer 44, the text makes the order of events clear --

That is only a very narrow view of what happened.

It is a Deuteronomistic perspective only, and even then many did not jump on he monotheistic bandwagon.

 

[outhouse]

But to claim that the goddess worship textually predates the "God" worship or that it made them better off ignores the text.

All of the displaced Canaanites that would become Israelites were polytheistic early on, and long after King Josiah's reforms they remained such.

Better off? I agree it made no difference. Israelites have been beat down their whole existence.

 

[rosends]

All of the displaced Canaanites that would become Israelites were polytheistic early on, and long after King Josiah's reforms they remained such.

Better off? I agree it made no difference. Israelites have been beat down their whole existence.

The textual claim made was about a specific goddess worship as evidenced in a particular verse/chapter. Larger claims about other forms of worship across the history of the people is not my focus.

 

[outhouse]

The textual claim made was about a specific goddess worship as evidenced in a particular verse/chapter.

Context is key though to understanding these particular verses.

Despite monotheistic reforms by government, the people had not all followed that blindly.

And again the textual claim is a rather narrow biased statement by strict Yahwist

 

[Brickjectivity]

Good grief they are Goddesses.

If they are sexual - where are the male partners? Where are the sexual positions? All of these are done under later patriarchy.

Sorry for being obstinate about that. I understand there is significance beyond their nudity, and I also looked up the Masuo tribe in China you once mentioned to me. So they are in nonsexual positions and are sometimes found in temples etc. Its still a very broad leap to saying that matriarchies are a default situation. How did we get onto this subject from talking about Eden?

 

[rosends]

Context is key though to understanding these particular verses.

Despite monotheistic reforms by government, the people had not all followed that blindly.

And again the textual claim is a rather narrow biased statement by strict Yahwist

the textual claim is designed to counter a textual claim originally made. I find it most reasonable to argue on the same terms as the person who made the initial statement.

 

[Ingledsva]

I take it that these are your quotes to demonstrate that, as you write it, "the Hebrew originally worshiped a Goddess, and were better off under her". I just wanted to point out a few things:
1. By the time of Jeremiah, the people were not known as Hebrews

2. Jer 7 presents the behavior you refer to as idolatry that developed AFTER the Jewish people had already begun to worship God.

ING - That is pure bull. They had a Pagan multi God past like all the other pagans. They had a Goddess, Sacred Sex, etc. I provide several titles for you to read about this.

There is nothing in the verse to indicate that it predates anything -- it speaks in the present tense about what the people "do".

ING - Apparently you missed the next line- Their father's and Kings - past tense.

as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes,

3. The text speaks of other objects of idolatry which are not feminine, like Molech. Why wouldn't you assume that there was prevalent god worship? Why single out goddess?

ING - LOL! Why would I talk about Gods - when we are discussing GODDESS?

Here is a Biblical Archaeology page with some interesting links Ancient Israelite Religion Special Collection | The BAS Library

And remember, this is an Abrahamic Archaeology magazine - they call Goddess - consort - folk - etc. So - from that point of view. I am using it to show they definitely had a Goddess. Read the book - The Hebrew Goddess.


4. If you read all of Jer 44, the text makes the order of events clear -- the people didn't listen to God. The people moved to Egypt and adopted the idolatrous ways of Egypt. The people were sent many prophets with warnings, but God did not take action even though they continued to disobey. Eventually, God took action and the people didn't learn from it but thought that because they weren't punished while being idolatrous, there was nothing wrong with it. So Jeremiah makes the cause/effect relationship clear and the people are eventually punished for their idolatry.

ING - The people were originally Canaanite - had a Goddess, Sacred Sex, etc. It does not matter that the text written by the new religion doesn't like it - it SHOWS that they continued to worship Goddess. As does Kings, etc., which has stories over long amounts of time saying they killed their own people over and over and over for continuing to worship these old Goddess and God.


Now you can surely claim that this is the male god figure punishing them for worshipping a female goddess. That's because it is. But to claim that the goddess worship textually predates the "God" worship or that it made them better off ignores the text.

I would love to see what other texts you have in this regard.

As I have already shown - the name Asherah/Ashtoreth/Astarte goes back before One God, and the name links to older Goddesses names around the Middle East and Egypt.

More reading material -

Amazon.com: The Hebrew Goddess: Books

"The Great Goddess, the Divine Ancestress, was worshiped as far back as the Upper Paleolithic about 25,000 BC -- not 7000 BC as had been previously believed by archaeologists and scholars based on archaeological evidence. The last Goddess temples were closed about 500 AD."

"Archaeological evidence proves that the Goddess religion existed and flourished in the Near and Middle East for thousands of years before the arrival of the patriarchal Abraham, first prophet of the male deity Yahweh.

Ancient Goddess MAMA


*

 

[rosends]

As I have already shown - the name Asherah/Ashtoreth/Astarte goes back before One God, and the name links to older Goddesses names around the Middle East and Egypt.

More reading material -

Amazon.com: The Hebrew Goddess: Books

"The Great Goddess, the Divine Ancestress, was worshiped as far back as the Upper Paleolithic about 25,000 BC -- not 7000 BC as had been previously believed by archaeologists and scholars based on archaeological evidence. The last Goddess temples were closed about 500 AD."

"Archaeological evidence proves that the Goddess religion existed and flourished in the Near and Middle East for thousands of years before the arrival of the patriarchal Abraham, first prophet of the male deity Yahweh.

Ancient Goddess MAMA


*

ah, so your argument is not textual. Why then do you think that quoting Jeremiah is useful? And your citation of Jeremiah 44 "as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes" is silly because it cites WHERE those events took place: " in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem," which puts it AFTER, not before, any other God worship. But if your argument isn't textual then you can say whatever you want and not care about what the text actually reads. Carry on.

"Why would I talk about Gods - when we are discussing GODDESS?"
Well, actually, YOU were discussing goddesses and claiming preexisting goddess worship (actually, you wrote, "Hebrew originally worshiped a Goddess"). A single goddess. Not gods and goddesses. A GODDESS. So when you ignore all the gods like Molech in order to make your claim you are simply selecting facts to suit your argument and ignoring other things which contradict you.

 

[Greatest I am]

They have dug up 100,000 naked female figures carved from rock in an age when photography had not yet been invented. Who could possibly need so many statues of naked women? It is a conundrum. They may indeed be representations of goddesses, but it doesn't sound conclusive. It also doesn't satisfactorily prove the existence of a matriarchy.

Can a man/hunter rule the home or tribe from the hunting terrain, or is it more likely that a female/gatherer closer to home will rule the tribe and teach the children?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I have never heard any hint of matriarchy in place in the Fertile Crescent. Most places in the world historically are patriarchies, mainly because men tend to default to misogyny when they have emotional problems, and men can desert a pregnant woman.
.

You are correct for the times after the Bronze age.

Before that, not so much.

There is quite a bit of information available out there but let me just give you this one piece.

Role Of Women In Ancient Egypt - Historic Mysteries

Cleopatra was not the first Egyptian queen. Just the most famous.

Regards
DL

 

[outhouse]

(actually, you wrote, "Hebrew originally worshiped a Goddess").

Yes and it is not up for debate.

Israelites were polytheistic until roughly 200-400 BC

" is silly because it cites WHERE those events took place: "

Ah but they key is when was this book finished?


And the answer is far removed from any actual events, and parts are from a minority biased narrow view point..

" in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem," which puts it AFTER, not before, any other God worship.

Sorry your wrong here.

The multi cultural people here were not all on board with monotheism.

After is not correct.

Some people worshipped Yahweh alone, many did not. Some people still worshipped Asherah, some did not.

 

[outhouse]

ah, so your argument is not textual.

You mean biblically biased to the multiple authors ?

 

[Ingledsva]

ah, so your argument is not textual. Why then do you think that quoting Jeremiah is useful? And your citation of Jeremiah 44 "as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes" is silly because it cites WHERE those events took place: " in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem," which puts it AFTER, not before, any other God worship. But if your argument isn't textual then you can say whatever you want and not care about what the text actually reads. Carry on.

"Why would I talk about Gods - when we are discussing GODDESS?"
Well, actually, YOU were discussing goddesses and claiming preexisting goddess worship (actually, you wrote, "Hebrew originally worshiped a Goddess"). A single goddess. Not gods and goddesses. A GODDESS. So when you ignore all the gods like Molech in order to make your claim you are simply selecting facts to suit your argument and ignoring other things which contradict you.

BULL it's not textual. Bull to generations just sitting in Judah and Jerusalem. Fathers, and Kings, tells us generational, and they obviously were in multiple places.

The Hebrew did worship a Goddess - as shown - by bible text, and others.

They worshiped the Queen Of Heaven - whom I have shown to be connected way back before the Iron age, - and thousands of years before Abram.

Did you miss this up above?

"The Great Goddess, the Divine Ancestress, was worshiped as far back as the Upper Paleolithic about 25,000 BC -- not 7000 BC as had been previously believed by archaeologists and scholars based on archaeological evidence."


*

 

[outhouse]

and thousands of years before Abram.

How can that be when this character is said to be a 6th ish century literary creation?