Was there evidence of the Philistines around 1500 BCE, before the time of the Exodus?

[shunyadragon]

What you present above is not the present consensus of scholars, Yes, there was a Bronze Age collapse during the 12th century BCE, but we have no Hebrew records at this time before or after the collapse. In the history of Judah is there is no evidence of Hebrew authors writing until after 600 BCE. We do have Egyptian, Cabaabite/Ugarite, Babylonian records, and evidence around the Mediterranean Sea of the collapse.

The cause of the collapse was primarily climate change across the Mesic climate band across Europe and the Middle East causing years of extreme drought. There is also evidence of widespread large Earthquakes in the Mediterranean region.

I wanted to add that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe or tribes in the Hills of Judah and pastoral farming is not as dependent on specialized large scale farming in the surrounding civilizations, which largely collapsed in the 12th and 11th centuries. The Hebrews began moving into regions of Palestine as the Egyptian, Hittite/Phoenician Civilizations slowly weakened in the region between 1100 and 800 BCE.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A couple of weeks ago, you recommended to me a good book on the historicity of the Exodus.

My whole life, I have been a voracious reader. However, in the last 10 years or so, diabetes have made my eyes so bad, that I can no longer read unless I have a large text. Fortunately I can configure my website browser to increase text size. But most books are simply out of my reach these days. It's been a huge adjustment.

I realize that online videos are not what you would call the best sources, LOL. However, given the condition of my eyes, they have become my main source of learning new information.

I am wondering if you have any quality historical video that you can similarly recommend that approaches the Exodus as something likely to have happened?

BTW, I did try sending this request to you via PM, but for some reason, it will not allow me to PM you.

First of all, I'm sorry about your eyesight. FWIW, I got yet another eye injection yesterday morning.

As far as videos go, I tend to avoid them and, therefore, have nothing to offer.

Parenthetically, I do not believe that the Exodus conveys history. I do, however, suspect that it provides historical clues.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Parenthetically, I do not believe that the Exodus conveys history. I do, however, suspect that it provides historical clues.

I agree.

 

[River Sea]

Oh, its an extremely important event in history. During the Bronze Age, there were a number of empires in the Mediterranean area: the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Myceneans (proto-Greeks), etc. There was extensive trade between these empires that provided a level of wealth and art and stuff that was far greater than at any time previous. And THEN around 1200 BCE something happened that destroyed this world. There are many ideas that historians and archeologists have natural disasters, such as earthquakes and famine, revolts and invasions of the Sea Peoples. But basically in the short span of one lifetime, these civilizations were decimated. Entire cities were reduced to ash and rubble. Egypt was gravely hurt, but survived.

Connecting it to the Bible, it is remembered as that period of time when the Philistines (one of the Sea Peoples) invaded Canaan and conquered the coastline.

You can google it on your own of course. But here is an easy to watch video on it.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Bthoth @Tamino

What are your thoughts about the Bronze Age Collapse (approximately 1200 B.C.E.)?

 

[Tamino]

What are your thoughts about the Bronze Age Collapse (approximately 1200 B.C.E.)?

My thoughts? That video you linked seems pretty solid. I have nothing important to add.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Bthoth @Tamino

What are your thoughts about the Bronze Age Collapse (approximately 1200 B.C.E.)?

I actually watched this video some time ago, but did enjoy watching it again.

I think the Bronze Age Collapse is one of the most significant events to happen in human history. I imagine that people in the Iron Age that followed probably grouped time into "before' and "after" this event. It is one of the Great Mysteries, right up there with What Happened to the Anasazi or What Happened to the Mayans?

The authors of the Bible largely lived during the iron age. It is interesting that if you look at which people in the Bible can be verified by other sources, they are all iron age individuals. The stories from the Bronze Age appear to be passed on orally before they were written down, and so, even though I think there is probably some truth behind them, they are obviously mixed with a lot of legend. It is best to read them as literature designed to teach, rather than historical accounts. The stories from after the Bronze Age Collapse on the other hand seem to be a fairly reliable source of genuine history.

Anyhow, that's my less than two cents worth. I'm not a historian. I just really love learning about these sorts of things.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Where did you read this BS? Jhunjhunwala?
Gerar is Mohenjo Daro (which is in Pakistan-Punjab). Girivraja (Rajgriha, Magadha, modern Rajgir, which is in India-Bihar).
The first is 1741 km from the second. .. Google Search
Stop reading fake history. It is only for idiots.

There was no rajgir at 1500 bce. Let us be decent in discussions.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I actually watched this video some time ago, but did enjoy watching it again.

I think the Bronze Age Collapse is one of the most significant events to happen in human history. I imagine that people in the Iron Age that followed probably grouped time into "before' and "after" this event. It is one of the Great Mysteries, right up there with What Happened to the Anasazi or What Happened to the Mayans?

The authors of the Bible largely lived during the iron age. It is interesting that if you look at which people in the Bible can be verified by other sources, they are all iron age individuals. The stories from the Bronze Age appear to be passed on orally before they were written down, and so, even though I think there is probably some truth behind them, they are obviously mixed with a lot of legend. It is best to read them as literature designed to teach, rather than historical accounts. The stories from after the Bronze Age Collapse on the other hand seem to be a fairly reliable source of genuine history.

Anyhow, that's my less than two cents worth. I'm not a historian. I just really love learning about these sorts of things.

Generally agree with you. But bronze age has left much info such as in Egypt. So cannot dismiss all as legend.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Generally agree with you. But bronze age has left much info such as in Egypt. So cannot dismiss all as legend.

No one is saying that Ancient Egypt is a mere legend. My comment was about Bible stories from the Bronze Age, not about Egyptian records.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Generally agree with you. But bronze age has left much info such as in Egypt. So cannot dismiss all as legend.

So, you mean Gerar is Girivraja is Mohenjodaro? What evidence? Your flight of fancy?

 

[River Sea]

Generally agree with you. But bronze age has left much info such as in Egypt. So cannot dismiss all as legend.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Bronze Age Beginning about 3500 BCE.

Chalcolithic Beginnings of the Bronze Age after 4000
BCE. How?

How did Chalcolithic beginnings, how?

What were Chalcolithic people thinking of Egypt? Did they get along or not get along and how come?

How was Indus Valley India similar and different from Egypt, during the Chalcolithic era?

Did this affect the Philistines? What happened during the Chalcolithic era?

The Sea that's attached to the Indus River that the Philistines were involved with, how often did they deal with the sea before leaving? Were they still called Sea people before leaving, compared to other tribes?

 

[shunyadragon]

There was no rajgir at 1500 bce. Let us be decent in discussions.

The age Rajger is unknown. Pottery at the cite is dated to1000 BCE, but a wall is dated to 2500 BCE.

Rajgir - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The town's date of origin is unknown, although ceramics dating to about 1000 BC have been found in the city. The 2,500-year-old cyclopean wall is also located in the region.

The Cyclopean Wall of Rajgir is a 40 km (25 mi) long wall of stone which encircled the ancient city of Rajgriha (present-day Rajgir), in the Indian state of Bihar, to protect it from external enemies and invaders. It is among the oldest examples of cyclopean masonry in the world.

Cyclopean Wall of Rajgir which encircled the former capital of Magadha

History​

[edit]
It was erected by the early Magadha rulers using massive undressed stones.

Condition​

[edit]
Only some portions of it remain. Most of the original structure has disappeared with time. The wall is currently designated as a national monument, and the Bihar Archaeological Department has recommended to the Archaeological Survey of India that it should be included in the list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites, which was achieved in 1987.[1][2]

Characteristics​

[edit]
The wall is a type of stonework built with massive limestone boulders, roughly filled together with minimal clearance between adjacent stones and no use of mortar. The boulders typically seem unworked, but some may have been shaped with a hammer.

 

[shunyadragon]

I thought the king's name was Gerar? I was wrong.

Philistine king of Gerar, reigned during the time of Abraham

Ok I learn something Gerar is a place
Place is Mohenjo Daro
Gerar, Land of the Philistines
Hindu name is Girivraja, Rajgriha,Magadha



Still how long do treaties last, when Abraham made these treaties, will they last 'till Moses is born 1525 BC or even later?

What causes previous famine in Abraham’s time? Do famine cause more treaties or ruin some treaties?

Not remotely related to the Philistines.

Philistines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Philistines (Hebrew: פְּלִשְׁתִּים, romanized: Pəlīštīm; LXX: Koinē Greek: Φυλιστιείμ, romanized: Phulistieím; Latin: Philistaei) were an ancient people who lived on the south coast of Canaan during the Iron Age in a confederation of city-states generally referred to as Philistia.

The Philistines may have originated as a Greek[1][2][3] immigrant group from the Aegean that settled in Canaan circa 1175 BC during the Late Bronze Age collapse. Over time, they gradually assimilated elements of the indigenous Levantine Semitic societies while preserving their own unique culture.[

 

[shunyadragon]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Bronze Age Beginning about 3500 BCE.

Chalcolithic Beginnings of the Bronze Age after 4000
BCE. How?

How did Chalcolithic beginnings, how?

Humans discovered how to use copper indifferent cultures around the world. Raw copper is common and it has a low melting point and it is easily malleable..

copper history - Google Search

Chalcolithic

Copper is one of the oldest metals used by humans, dating back more than 10,000 years. Archaeological evidence suggests that Neolithic humans first used native copper in the regions of modern-day Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and the Indian subcontinent around 8,000–5,000 BCE. They used it as a substitute for stone in coins and ornaments, and may have also hammered it into shapes.

Copper's many useful properties made it important to early humans and continue to make it a material of choice today:

• Easy to shape: Copper can be stretched, molded, and cast into shapes
  
  
• Resistant to corrosion: Copper is more resistant to corrosion than other metals
  
  
• Conducts heat and electricity: Copper is an efficient conductor of heat and electricity
  
  
• Can be melted down: If copper breaks, it can be melted down and reshaped, which was useful for farmers

Here are some other notable events in copper's history:

• 5500 BCE: Copper tools helped civilization emerge from the Stone Age. Different cultures all over the world developed the use of copper independently at different times.
  
  
• 4000 BCE: Copper was cast into molds in Mesopotamia
  
  
• 3500 BCE: Copper was intentionally alloyed with tin to create bronze, marking the beginning of the Bronze Age
  

What were Chalcolithic people thinking of Egypt? Did they get along or not get along and how come?

Chalcolithic is not the designation of a people or a tribe. It is the designation of the period when people used copper,

How was Indus Valley India similar and different from Egypt

Entirely different culture, related over the millennia through trade.

t, during the Chalcolithic era?

Did this affect the Philistines? What happened during the Chalcolithic era?

The Sea that's attached to the Indus River that the Philistines were involved with, how often did they deal with the sea before leaving? Were they still called Sea people before leaving, compared to other tribes?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Bronze Age Beginning about 3500 BCE.

Chalcolithic Beginnings of the Bronze Age after 4000
BCE. How?

How did Chalcolithic beginnings, how?

What were Chalcolithic people thinking of Egypt? Did they get along or not get along and how come?

How was Indus Valley India similar and different from Egypt, during the Chalcolithic era?

Did this affect the Philistines? What happened during the Chalcolithic era?

The Sea that's attached to the Indus River that the Philistines were involved with, how often did they deal with the sea before leaving? Were they still called Sea people before leaving, compared to other tribes?

I did some research for you. The chalcolithic era aka Copper Age was precipitated by advancements in metallurgy, agricultural surpluses and population growth, specialization in labor, and the development of trade. Of course, some regions developed skills with copper first because the ore is simply more plentiful some places than others. Once the skill developed, it spread via trade. And yes, skill with copper developed every continent except Australia and Antarctica, although it was not always as widespread.

Egypt compared to Indus Valley:

1. Similarities.
Both places the era was preceded by urban development and development of trade routes. In both civilizations, they began working with copper by cold hammering, but later learned smelting.

2. Differences.
The Egyptian copper age came around 700 years earlier, roughly from 4000 to 3000 BCE, whereas the era in the Indus Valley ranged from 3300 BCE to 2600 BCE. The skill with copper was more sophisticated in the Indus Valley, where they learned how to cast moulds and thus create elaborate jewelry and other objects, although in Egypt copper gave way more quickly to Bronze (about 500 years earlier than Indus Valley).. In Egypt, copper metallurgy was closely connected to government and religion, whereas in the Indus valley, it was more widespread among the general population.

The Philistines aka the Peleset or the P'lishtim, were one of the Sea Peoples, most likely from Greece, who contributed to the Bronze age collapse. Their civilization in Canaan, which began around 1200 BCE, was not around during the Chalcolithic period. It existed at the end of the Bronze age and into the early Iron age. Philistine civilization existed in that area of Canaan that is known today as Gaza. It was not even close to Indus Valley.

Not much is known about the Sea Peoples, but historians generally agree they were an alliance of many different peoples, all of whom invaded the Eastern Mediterranean as the Bronze age was ending. Although they did not single handedly cause the Bronze Age collapse, they were a contributing factor. There is no evidence that any of the Sea Peoples ever reached Indus Valley or had any direct influence on it.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The age Rajger is unknown. Pottery at the cite is dated to1000 BCE, but a wall is dated to 2500 BCE.

Rajgir - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The town's date of origin is unknown, although ceramics dating to about 1000 BC have been found in the city. The 2,500-year-old cyclopean wall is also located in the region.

The Cyclopean Wall of Rajgir is a 40 km (25 mi) long wall of stone which encircled the ancient city of Rajgriha (present-day Rajgir), in the Indian state of Bihar, to protect it from external enemies and invaders. It is among the oldest examples of cyclopean masonry in the world.

Cyclopean Wall of Rajgir which encircled the former capital of Magadha

History​

[edit]
It was erected by the early Magadha rulers using massive undressed stones.

Condition​

[edit]
Only some portions of it remain. Most of the original structure has disappeared with time. The wall is currently designated as a national monument, and the Bihar Archaeological Department has recommended to the Archaeological Survey of India that it should be included in the list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites, which was achieved in 1987.[1][2]

Characteristics​

[edit]
The wall is a type of stonework built with massive limestone boulders, roughly filled together with minimal clearance between adjacent stones and no use of mortar. The boulders typically seem unworked, but some may have been shaped with a hammer.

If you read the quotation carefully, the 2500-year-old cyclopean wall, which dates from 500 BCE, indicates that Rajgir did not exist at 1500 BCE.

 

[River Sea]

Where did you read this BS? Jhunjhunwala?
Gerar is Mohenjo Daro (which is in Pakistan-Punjab). Girivraja (Rajgriha, Magadha, modern Rajgir, which is in India-Bihar).
The first is 1741 km from the second. .. Google Search
Stop reading fake history. It is only for idiots.

@Aupmanyav
I looked this up on the map, and you're correct the Hindu names were not in the same location as Mohenjo Daro, and please, @Bharat Jhunjhunwala will you explain this to me? How come the Hindu names weren't in the same location as Mohenjo Daro?

Mohenjo Daro was west and in Pakistan, while the Hindu names of Mohenjo Daro were Girivraja, Rajgriha, Magadha was east. How come the Hindu names weren't in the same location as Mohenjo Daro?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Can you help me with this please

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav
Mohenjo Daro was west and in Pakistan, while the Hindu names of Mohenjo Daro were Girivraja, Rajgriha, Magadha was east. How come the Hindu names weren't in the same location as Mohenjo Daro?

Mohenjodaro is very much Indian - (Mohana jo dero - The camp of fisherfolk). This is in Sindhi/Multani/Saraiki languages of Pakistan).
The fisherfolk of Indus river are known as Mohanas in Pakistan.
Of course, this was not the actual name of whatever the people of Mohenjodaro and Harappa called their cities as. We do not know that.

 

[shunyadragon]

Generally agree with you. But bronze age has left much info such as in Egypt. So cannot dismiss all as legend.

The Pentateuch account of Creation, Adam and Eve, Eden, and the account of the Noah flood are based on legend and mythology with absolutely no basis in the facts of the history and archeology, and easily dismissed..

The Pentateuch lacks provenance of author and origin including the account of Exodus. There is absolutely no evidence that Exodus ever took place as described or Moses ever was a true person in history, Nonetheless the Exodus account is based on Levant and Egypt history, and the fact that the Hebrews were a Canaanite tribe culturally, historically, based on genetics, archeology. Based on history, and archeology the Exodus is likely loosely based on the Canaanite Hyksos driven out of Egypt to the Levant where they came from.

 

[PureX]

What's a philistine and where are you focused on?

Heck an exodus is suspect as written in torah. No actual record anywhere.

Not only that, but the Egyptians built the pyramids and temples themselves. They did not use slaves.