Was Voltaire right? A reflection on January 6

[Twilight Hue]

I was listening to Congressman Jamie Raskin (D-Maryland) reflecting on his work on the January 6 Committee, and something he said struck me as quite astute.

He was talking about the fact that after the 2020 election so many efforts were made to get judges (many appointed by Trump himself) to throw out results base on "fraud" -- all totally without any evidence whatsoever, and all summarily tossed out of court --and yet, Trump and his enablers seem to have managed to convince a very large number of Republicans that the November election was faked and January 6 was necessary. Raskin mentioned that "maybe Voltair was right."

What Voltaire said is that "anyone wbo can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." And in this case, given that there is STILL no evidence for election fraud, but that election fraud is STILL the rallying cry for millions -- it's a palpable absurdity. And believing it made a lot of people commit an atrocity on January 6 -- and a lot more people to continue to condone that atrocity right up until this very day.

While we're at it -- how do you "deprogram" millions of conspiracy-deluded people at once? Seems like an impossible task, to me.

Simple. Don't create people like this in the first place.

Then things like this won't happen.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I was listening to Congressman Jamie Raskin (D-Maryland) reflecting on his work on the January 6 Committee, and something he said struck me as quite astute.

He was talking about the fact that after the 2020 election so many efforts were made to get judges (many appointed by Trump himself) to throw out results base on "fraud" -- all totally without any evidence whatsoever, and all summarily tossed out of court --and yet, Trump and his enablers seem to have managed to convince a very large number of Republicans that the November election was faked and January 6 was necessary. Raskin mentioned that "maybe Voltair was right."

What Voltaire said is that "anyone wbo can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." And in this case, given that there is STILL no evidence for election fraud, but that election fraud is STILL the rallying cry for millions -- it's a palpable absurdity. And believing it made a lot of people commit an atrocity on January 6 -- and a lot more people to continue to condone that atrocity right up until this very day.

While we're at it -- how do you "deprogram" millions of conspiracy-deluded people at once? Seems like an impossible task, to me.

Simple. Don't create people like this in the first place.

Then things like this won't happen.

I have to say, I find that a pretty inferior, not very well-thought-out response. Who is it you are suggesting should stop doing this "creating people like this?" And how do you put it into effect?

 

[Valjean]

Like I'm said do the research.
It's easy to find even now.

Twitter suspended The New York Post’s account and barred anyone from sharing the story. Facebook similarly throttled its dissemination. Other than The Post and Fox News, no major news outlets would touch it except to aggressively discount it.

There's no need to actually tamper with voting machines when all you need to do is conceal information.

The research has been done, by many independent investigators. Each example of fraud, each questionable action by election officials, has turned out to be insignificant. Voter fraud was vanishingly rare.
What was widespread, on the other hand, was voter suppression.

 

[Stevicus]

I have to say, I find that a pretty inferior, not very well-thought-out response. Who is it you are suggesting should stop doing this "creating people like this?" And how do you put it into effect?

I can't answer for @Twilight Hue, but I think that many of these people were "created" by the culture we live in. That is, a confluence of cultures, both past and present, along with an idealized view of U.S. history and a belief in the traditional mythos of Americana, in opposition to the more progressive, liberal, and egalitarian ideals which have taken hold over the past 50-75 years. Then there's the actual reality which people have to deal with on a tangible level, every day - and it's rare to find that practical reality really matches up with the abstract ideals people embrace.

In practice, it leads to a society and culture with a lot of mixed messages, inconsistencies, double standards, hypocrisy - along with a general sense of corruption in politics and a good deal of angst, cynicism, and malaise among the masses. I believe the masses overall can tolerate it as long as their basic material needs are met. I don't really believe that things are that bad yet, though I don't think we're really out of the woods yet either.

Whatever dissension may be taking place - whatever or whoever it is that might have been "created," I don't think it's really about a dispute over the vote count in the 2020 election. That may be some kind of symbolic rallying cry they've latched on to - and maybe many of them sincerely do believe that Trump actually won and the whole thing was a fraud.

As far as that particular thing, I don't think there's any way that anyone could "deprogram" or disabuse them of that notion. But that's not really the issue. The underlying issue is conflicting visions and ideals for America, which has been an ongoing issue for a very long time.

As to your question about how they're created - or more to the point, how they can become enamored with various bizarre and kooky conspiracy theories - it's that for some people, their vision and ideal for America has somehow gone sour or turned not up to expectations. Whatever people might have been taught to believe about patriotism or the "American Dream" or whatever idealized mythos they've latched onto, some people have found disappointment in one form or another.

Part of the problem is that, up until recently, each generation of Americans would improve to varying degrees, in terms of standard of living and economic mobility. Even despite downturns such as the Great Depression, by and large, life has improved generation by generation for Americans - until more recent times when things have become more stagnant. And now, with the pandemic, supply chain issues, adjusting to climate change, etc., some people are saying this is "the new normal." We're not the land of plenty anymore, nor the land of opportunity. We've outsourced our industries so we can't even make our own toilet paper anymore. Our healthcare system is an overpriced shambles, which in practice is a living experiment in Darwinism - where only the wealthiest and the strongest survive.

I've noticed a general attitude of impending doom, even as subtle as it may be expressed. It's sometimes passively expressed as "well, this country is going down the tubes" or "to hell in a handbasket." It appears we once had a good thing going, but somehow, it went south. Many people just don't understand why, which makes them confused and vulnerable to politicians like Trump and notions that things are going bad because of some "enemy" conspiring to destroy them.

 

[wellwisher]

I was listening to Congressman Jamie Raskin (D-Maryland) reflecting on his work on the January 6 Committee, and something he said struck me as quite astute.

He was talking about the fact that after the 2020 election so many efforts were made to get judges (many appointed by Trump himself) to throw out results base on "fraud" -- all totally without any evidence whatsoever, and all summarily tossed out of court --and yet, Trump and his enablers seem to have managed to convince a very large number of Republicans that the November election was faked and January 6 was necessary. Raskin mentioned that "maybe Voltair was right."

What Voltaire said is that "anyone wbo can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." And in this case, given that there is STILL no evidence for election fraud, but that election fraud is STILL the rallying cry for millions -- it's a palpable absurdity. And believing it made a lot of people commit an atrocity on January 6 -- and a lot more people to continue to condone that atrocity right up until this very day.

While we're at it -- how do you "deprogram" millions of conspiracy-deluded people at once? Seems like an impossible task, to me.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion conspiracy theory that the Democrat party and swamp created? What it took to break the spell connected to that mass delusion was a deep dive into the accusations, via the Mueller Investigation. Federal power was used to take a deep dive into this conspiracy theory.

This deep dive has yet to happen into the accusation of election fraud. The Left avoided all attempts to have a Federal level deep dive. If the Left really wants this to end, they have to being willing to let a Federal investigation happen. Avoiding such a deep dive investigation and calling it done deal will never be enough.

The Twitter file release is showing that there was a conspiracy by the FBI; Fed/Swamp and Twitter to suppress the truth about the Hunter Biden Laptop, which implicated President Biden, just before the election. Polls suggest that this cheat alone was enough to influence the election; election tampering.

If this coverup had not occurred Trump would have won, and Jan 6 would not have occurred. The same people on the Left used same basic excuse for both sets of conspiracy theories; Russians were involved. There was a continuity to this.

Relative to the Russian collusion coup, Rep Adam Schiff constantly claimed to have smoking gun evidence. After this conspiracy was debunked the nutcase who never had any proof, was allowed to head a series of investigative committees, to go after the victim of their conspiracy theory; Trump Schiff headed 2 impeachments and Jan 6. Could anyone explain why would you promote the worse nut case, unless the coup was continuing and it needed a liar? We will see in Jan when there will finally be an investigation into the criminals who have yet to see justice.

 

[Revoltingest]

The research has been done, by many independent investigators. Each example of fraud, each questionable action by election officials, has turned out to be insignificant. Voter fraud was vanishingly rare.
What was widespread, on the other hand, was voter suppression.

And let's not forget that voter fraud by
Republicans has turned up too.

 

[metis]

FBI reached out to Twitter before Post broke Hunter Biden laptop story
Media’s suppression of Hunter Biden’s laptop was election interference
Twitter suspended The New York Post’s account and barred anyone from sharing the story. Facebook similarly throttled its dissemination. Other than The Post and Fox News, no major news outlets would touch it except to aggressively discount it.

Both sources are Murdoch owned, and you well should know what slant they have. Maybe try again.

 

[metis]

Other than The Post and Fox News, no major news outlets would touch it except to aggressively discount it.

They broadcast and posted it because they're in the right-wing propaganda business, not the actual objective news business as they are owned by Murdoch. Again, it is so important to "cross-check" one's sources as we even learned back in elementary school.

 

[metis]

This deep dive has yet to happen into the accusation of election fraud. The Left avoided all attempts to have a Federal level deep dive. If the Left really wants this to end, they have to being willing to let a Federal investigation happen. Avoiding such a deep dive investigation and calling it done deal will never be enough.

That is complete nonsense as the court decisions, including those made by Trump appointees, almost all went against the above. Only one didn't [61 did] as that was just a procedural decision.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion conspiracy theory that the Democrat party and swamp created? What it took to break the spell connected to that mass delusion was a deep dive into the accusations, via the Mueller Investigation. Federal power was used to take a deep dive into this conspiracy theory.

This deep dive has yet to happen into the accusation of election fraud. The Left avoided all attempts to have a Federal level deep dive. If the Left really wants this to end, they have to being willing to let a Federal investigation happen. Avoiding such a deep dive investigation and calling it done deal will never be enough.

There's already been a "deep dive." Several, in fact.

FBI: No credible threats to US election systems ahead of midterms
No Fraudulent Or Criminal Activity Occurred On Nov. 8 Election Night During Counting Of Votes, FBI Concludes
FBI Closes Case on General Election Night Video Confirming No Fraudulent or Criminal Activity | Elections System of the VI
The Myth of Voter Fraud

How many more investigations and court cases do you need to show that there is no evidence of mass voter fraud from the last election? What would be enough to convince you?

The Twitter file release is showing that there was a conspiracy by the FBI; Fed/Swamp and Twitter to suppress the truth about the Hunter Biden Laptop, which implicated President Biden, just before the election. Polls suggest that this cheat alone was enough to influence the election; election tampering.

If this coverup had not occurred Trump would have won, and Jan 6 would not have occurred. The same people on the Left used same basic excuse for both sets of conspiracy theories; Russians were involved. There was a continuity to this.

Relative to the Russian collusion coup, Rep Adam Schiff constantly claimed to have smoking gun evidence. After this conspiracy was debunked the nutcase who never had any proof, was allowed to head a series of investigative committees, to go after the victim of their conspiracy theory; Trump Schiff headed 2 impeachments and Jan 6. Could anyone explain why would you promote the worse nut case, unless the coup was continuing and it needed a liar? We will see in Jan when there will finally be an investigation into the criminals who have yet to see justice.

Ah, of course, it's the "Left's" fault that the Trumpers just had to do an insurrection. Is that what Fox News is saying this week? Anything, anything to evade responsibility for their own actions, eh? How pathetic.


By the way, what is the "truth about Hunter Biden Laptop" that you so confidently believe would have swayed the election in favour of Trump?

 

[Wildswanderer]

They broadcast and posted it because they're in the right-wing propaganda business, not the actual objective news business as they are owned by Murdoch. Again, it is so important to "cross-check" one's sources as we even learned back in elementary school.

It's all been proven to be true. In spades.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The research has been done, by many independent investigators. Each example of fraud, each questionable action by election officials, has turned out to be insignificant. Voter fraud was vanishingly rare.
What was widespread, on the other hand, was voter suppression.

You aren't paying attention. I'm not talking about election officials. I'm talking about how the MSM spiked the Hunter Biden story because it would have cost Biden the election.

 

[F1fan]

You aren't paying attention. I'm not talking about election officials. I'm talking about how the MSM spiked the Hunter Biden story because it would have cost Biden the election.

How would it cost Biden the election, it wasn't his laptop? And Trump was so bad he lost the election due to his incompetence and corruption.

And the story was dismissed by MSM because of the rampant disinformation being spread by right wing media, which seemed to think this would help Trump get more votes. It was due to the spread of so many rumors that could not be verified that MSM just wlked away from it. They are not in the business of helping right wing media spread disinformation.

This is the new "Benghazi" nonsense. The right wing might have succeeded in ruining Clinton's election just enough for an inept and corrupt Trump to win the EC, not the popular vote. But now more people are savvy and won't help the right wing spread their disinformation. Some two years later, what evidence is there about this laptop nonsense? Nothing, just more fake outrage.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You aren't paying attention. I'm not talking about election officials. I'm talking about how the MSM spiked the Hunter Biden story because it would have cost Biden the election.

Would it? What's the "story," exactly?

Is it that some weird dude that owns a computer store ended up with someone's laptop and then took it upon himself to give it to Rudy Giuliani to publish someone's personal property to the world? That story?

 

[SomeRandom]

Would it? What's the "story," exactly?

Is it that some weird dude that owns a computer store ended up with someone's laptop and then took it upon himself to give it to Rudy Giuliani to publish someone's personal property to the world? That story?

Okay so it’s not just me who’s beyond confused as to why Hunter Biden’s laptop would even matter.

I assumed at first it was because I’m not American and therefor not up on the lore.
But I kept hearing about it from right wing guys and continued to be confused.
Like does it contain pornography of Trump or something?

 

[SomeRandom]

On the contrary it's not even being hidden. Everyone knows that the internet was deliberately manipulated to exclude information about Biden's son which would have changed the outcome of the election.

Maybe it’s because I’m not American but why the hell would anyone give a damn as to what Biden’s son has on his laptop? Does he have the nuke codes or something?

Like I’m sure there’s plenty of awful things on the laptops owned by children of my political leaders. But you know. That’s their business. Why the hell would I vote based on that. It just seems so……random.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Okay so it’s not just me who’s beyond confused as to why Hunter Biden’s laptop would even matter.

I assumed at first it was because I’m not American and therefor not up on the lore.
But I kept hearing about it from right wing guys and continued to be confused.
Like does it contain pornography of Trump or something?

Well, I'm Canadian, so take that for what it's worth. We are inundated with American news on a daily basis over here though. But I'm in that boat right there with you.

The craziest thing I've heard is on it is some pornographic material and some photos of Hunter doing drugs. If that's the damning material they're talking about, I give that a great big, So What?
That's not anybody's business, really, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not sure how that would've cost Joe Biden the election, exactly.
I've heard other people kinda, sorta allude to something about foreign business dealings, but nothing more specific than that.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well, I'm Canadian, so take that for what it's worth. We are inundated with American news on a daily basis over here though. But I'm in that boat right there with you.

The craziest thing I've heard is on it is some pornographic material and some photos of Hunter doing drugs. If that's the damning material they're talking about, I give that a great big, So What?
That's not anybody's business, really, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not sure how that would've cost Joe Biden the election, exactly.
I've heard other people kinda, sorta allude to something about foreign business dealings, but nothing more specific than that.

Oh. Yeah we get a lot of US news as Murdoch owns ours. Usually it’s met with “them yanks be crazy” responses though lol

As an Aussie I’m like 99% sure that most of my parliament is at the very least borderline alcoholics given our drinking culture lol
So I doubt the public would give much of a damn if photos emerged of one of them doing drugs. Insofar as votes are concerned. It might very well result in a lot of mockery but not much else

Also wasn’t it widely speculated a few years back that Trump’s son was always on cocaine?
I feel like that was tabloid news everywhere in 2016/17.
Either that or it was just a long running joke about how weird his son was at public events.

Pretty sure Trump’s on something given his wealth. Not that I care either way.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Oh. Yeah we get a lot of US news as Murdoch owns ours. Usually it’s met with “them yanks be crazy” responses though lol

LOL We've got those too. We get it all here: Fox News, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC, you name it. Sometimes I watch Fox News just to see what nonsense I'm going to hear about later on in the day when I log on to this forum.

As an Aussie I’m like 99% sure that most of my parliament is at the very least borderline alcoholics given our drinking culture lol
So I doubt the public would give much of a damn if photos emerged of one of them doing drugs. Insofar as votes are concerned. It might very well result in a lot of mockery but not much else

Weirdly, being an alcoholic doesn't seem to be frowned upon at all, while drug use/abuse is seen as some sort of moral failing or something.
I remember back when it was scandalous to find out that a politician had smoked marijuana sometime in their past. There's some famous quote from Bill Clinton about how he "didn't inhale" or something. LOL

But you hear them going on and on about Hunter Biden being a "crackhead" and therefore a total piece of garbage. I don't take too well to that because my father was a drug addict and an amazing human being with a lot of problems he didn't know how to deal with, as I imagine may be an issue with Hunter Biden, as it is with so many people addicted to drugs.

Also wasn’t it widely speculated a few years back that Trump’s son was always on cocaine?
I feel like that was tabloid news everywhere in 2016/17.
Either that or it was just a long running joke about how weird his son was at public events.

Oh yeah, I remember one particular interview I saw (sorry can't remember where it was) where Don Jr. was all zonked out and jittery and stuff - definitely on something. But I don't recall any Republicans thinking it was noteworthy at all.

Pretty sure Trump’s on something given his wealth. Not that I care either way.

Plus, all the sniffling.

 

[SomeRandom]

LOL We've got those too. We get it all here: Fox News, Newsmax, CNN, MSNBC, you name it. Sometimes I watch Fox News just to see what nonsense I'm going to hear about later on in the day when I log on to this forum.

I do that, only through various (admittedly leftists) folks reporting on it and mocking it.


I’m honestly thankful that sort of thing didn’t catch on here in Oz. Last election we had, the conservatives and the United One Party in particular tried implementing US style right wing politics. We’re a conservative nation, don’t get me wrong. But that particular style of conservative politics absolutely bombed at the polls.
Looking at the way things are in the US currently, I’m convinced we wouldn’t have survived that kind of thing as a nation lol

Weirdly, being an alcoholic doesn't seem to be frowned upon at all, while drug use/abuse is seen as some sort of moral failing or something.
I remember back when it was scandalous to find out that a politician had smoked marijuana sometime in their past. There's some famous quote from Bill Clinton about how he "didn't inhale" or something. LOL

Huh that’s a good point.
I guess because alcohol is more widely used culturally speaking.
Possibly more so since all the lockdowns and folks generally had nothing to do for a while lol
Though I feel like that’s changing among zoomers and even some millennials

But you hear them going on and on about Hunter Biden being a "crackhead" and therefore a total piece of garbage. I don't take too well to that because my father was a drug addict and an amazing human being with a lot of problems he didn't know how to deal with, as I imagine may be an issue with Hunter Biden, as it is with so many people addicted to drugs.

Ikr. The way I hear some people talk about it, you’d think Biden was doing lines in the White House daily lol.
I don’t get the obsession.
Then again I don’t get the obsession with Trump either so I mean
Addicts shouldn’t be dehumanised, I agree. Sorry to hear about your dad

Oh yeah, I remember one particular interview I saw (sorry can't remember where it was) where Don Jr. was all zonked out and jittery and stuff - definitely on something. But I don't recall any Republicans thinking it was noteworthy at all.

I remember it being a meme for a while. But that’s about it

Plus, all the sniffling.

Lol true