Well, seeing as how He was and is God, to deny that, is to deny who Jesus is. It's confessing who He is. Thomas confessed to Jesus Himself that he was his Lord and his God when he saw him resurrected. And we are to confess our sins to God. And throughout scripture it is The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit who are called God.Tell me please. Do you need me to confess that Jesus is God? Why and to whom? To God?
Confessions are made to God. Are they not? Why does God need to know that um God is Jesus?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Do you agree that what I think about God and Jesus do not change them? Is your Bible god? Why do you believe it as though it is? The Jehovah's Witnesses think the same about the Bible as you do and are they saved by doing so?
The Doctrine of the Trinity in Early Church History
Many people who reject the doctrine of the Trinity argue that it developed after the time of the apostles. Most critics of the Trinity point to the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 and the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381 as the events that introduced the doctrine of the Trinity into the church. This claim is not supported by the historical record. This can be shown by examining the writings of Christians before the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople.
Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the church at Corinth around A.D. 96. In this letter, he explains God in terms compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. He writes, "Do we not have one God, one Christ, one Spirit of grace which was poured out on us?" (Cyril Richardson, Early Christian Fathers, New York: The Macmillan Co., 1970, p. 65). Clement also writes, "For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives and the Holy Spirit (on whom the elect believe and hope) . . . " (Ibid., p. 70). In addition, the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 is quoted twice in The Didache, a church manual written around A.D. 90-100.
Ignatius of Antioch wrote several letters before his death in A.D. 117. He affirmed both the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ in his letter to the Ephesians. "The source of your unity and election is genuine suffering which you undergo by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God" (Ibid., pp. 87-88). In the same letter he also writes, "There is only one physician-of flesh yet spiritual, born yet unbegotten, God incarnate, genuine life in the midst of death, sprung from Mary as well as God, first subject to suffering then beyond it-Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ibid., p. 90). In his letter to the Romans, Ignatius also refers to Jesus Christ as "our God" (Ibid., p. 103). Another early Christian named Justin wrote his First Apology about A.D. 155. In this writing, he declared that the Son is divine (Ibid., p. 285).
The doctrine of the Trinity is also implied in Athenagoras' Plea to Emperors Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Aurelius in A.D. 176-77, "The Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit" (Ibid., p. 309). Athenagoras repeats his Trinitarian position later in his Plea, "We speak of God, of the Son, his Word, and of the Holy Spirit; and we say that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are united in power" (Ibid., p. 326).
Irenaeus of Lyons wrote his work Against Heresies in the late second century. He writes, "Christ Jesus our Lord and God and Savior and King, according to the pleasure of the invisible Father" (Ibid., p. 360). At about the same time, Tertullian argued that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in his treatise Against Praxeas (Justo L. Gonzales, A History of Christian Thought, vol. 1, Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1970, pp. 182-183). Other early Christians also affirmed their belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, including Origen (A.D. 185-254) and Novatian of Rome (mid-third century) (Ibid., pp. 226, 242).
Many people who reject the doctrine of the Trinity argue that it developed after the time of the apostles. Most critics of the Trinity point to the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 and the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381 as the events that introduced the doctrine of the Trinity into the church. This claim is not supported by the historical record. This can be shown by examining the writings of Christians before the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople.
Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the church at Corinth around A.D. 96. In this letter, he explains God in terms compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. He writes, "Do we not have one God, one Christ, one Spirit of grace which was poured out on us?" (Cyril Richardson, Early Christian Fathers, New York: The Macmillan Co., 1970, p. 65). Clement also writes, "For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives and the Holy Spirit (on whom the elect believe and hope) . . . " (Ibid., p. 70). In addition, the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 is quoted twice in The Didache, a church manual written around A.D. 90-100.
Ignatius of Antioch wrote several letters before his death in A.D. 117. He affirmed both the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ in his letter to the Ephesians. "The source of your unity and election is genuine suffering which you undergo by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God" (Ibid., pp. 87-88). In the same letter he also writes, "There is only one physician-of flesh yet spiritual, born yet unbegotten, God incarnate, genuine life in the midst of death, sprung from Mary as well as God, first subject to suffering then beyond it-Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ibid., p. 90). In his letter to the Romans, Ignatius also refers to Jesus Christ as "our God" (Ibid., p. 103). Another early Christian named Justin wrote his First Apology about A.D. 155. In this writing, he declared that the Son is divine (Ibid., p. 285).
The doctrine of the Trinity is also implied in Athenagoras' Plea to Emperors Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Aurelius in A.D. 176-77, "The Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit" (Ibid., p. 309). Athenagoras repeats his Trinitarian position later in his Plea, "We speak of God, of the Son, his Word, and of the Holy Spirit; and we say that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are united in power" (Ibid., p. 326).
Irenaeus of Lyons wrote his work Against Heresies in the late second century. He writes, "Christ Jesus our Lord and God and Savior and King, according to the pleasure of the invisible Father" (Ibid., p. 360). At about the same time, Tertullian argued that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in his treatise Against Praxeas (Justo L. Gonzales, A History of Christian Thought, vol. 1, Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1970, pp. 182-183). Other early Christians also affirmed their belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, including Origen (A.D. 185-254) and Novatian of Rome (mid-third century) (Ibid., pp. 226, 242).
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
It shows that the scripture can still be fulfilled literally without being in line with the exact way its written.
And Christ is literally ruling as a King right now. Millions of people around the world are already submitting to his rulership and living in harmony with his rules and regulations based on his governments constitution....which we all have a copy of.
Are you submitting to that rulership and living in harmony with it?
We dont believe he is in the literal city of Jerusalem on earth. He rules from heaven
He exists in 'the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven' as John called it:
Revelation 3:12 ‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God+ and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem+ that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
Hebrews 12;22 But you have approached a Mount Zion+ and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem,+ and myriads* of angels
Hebrews 12;22 But you have approached a Mount Zion+ and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem,+ and myriads* of angels
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. No it doesn't. This is a fallacy of equivocation. Names that were never literally used have no connection to whether someone will literally rule and dwell in a particular place in the future. Unfortunately, that is a shrewdly contrived GB fallacy in order to get around scriptures that do not agree with their beliefs.
2. I am by keeping the 10 commandments, which Christ told the rich young ruler would lead to eternal life. You are only keeping nine. That's right --you are not keeping the Sabbath as Christ implied His followers would be today (Mat 24:20). We've had the "Mosaic Law" conversation several times in the past and it never turns out well for you. We can do it again, if you'd like.
3. But you cannot prove from the scriptures He will always rule from there. Which brings us back to my question you have skillfully ignored. Using the law of non-contradiction, find me two passages that contradict the fact Jesus could and would never literally dwell and rule from Jerusalem in the future?
Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4. It descends out of heaven and ends up where, Pegg? May Jehovah finally open your eyes.Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
Last edited:
james2ko
Well-Known Member
So because of your ignorance of the doctrines of your own sect, you want me to spend my valuable time scouring their site for an answer?? No thanks.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Its reasonable to conclude that the rulership does not need to be in a particular place called by a particular name. Especially when the scriptures say its going to be a 'heavenly Jerusalem' which basically means the rulership of God from heaven.
Jesus also asked his followers to 'preach'
So I dont think you should limit yourself to the 10 commandments. But its very commendable that you do follow them, good on you.
Heaven is a spiritual place... nothing physical comes out of heaven. The rulership of Christ does not have a literal throne... God does not sit on anything in heaven.
Jesus own words tell us that he will not be on earth again:
John 14:19 “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
Open your spiritual eye and see that Christs kingdom is already ruling from heaven.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
John 17:6 (ESVST) 6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
John 17:25-26 (ESVST) 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
Hmmm, I don't see "Jehovah" in those 2 verses.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. A fallacy of equivocation is never reasonable. Take a look at some examples. Your example of equating the absence of a name to that persons future rule and dwelling fits right in:
Equivocation : Department of Philosophy : Texas State University
2. No. The scriptures say it is going to descend from heaven to the earth where God will finally dwell with men. This is the literal culmination of all the verses I have posted from the prophets! How exciting it is for God to finally dwell right here on earth with us. That is part of the gospel of the kingdom. How unfortunate your organization spiritualizes it away.
3. I don't because the 10 encompass all the others. Just as the two great commandments spoken of by Christ encompass the 10. The first four provide an outline on how to love God while the last six outlines how to love our neighbor.
.
4. But God can make them physical while on earth. Just like the angels that came out of heaven when they grabbed Lot and his family by their hands. Do you see how scripture interprets scripture? Yet you allow an organization to interpret it for you.
5. You are simply repeating what has already been refuted here . Return of Christ | Page 4 | ReligiousForums.com
I do acknowledge He is ruling from heaven currently. But your organization's spiritual glaucoma won't allow you to see that is not where He will stay.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
How come the JW's of today, that are commanded to "PREACH" the kingdom don't have the power Jesus gave to His disciples in the first century?
Luke 9:1-2 (ESVST) 1 And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.
Ahhh, you might say, "they were apostles", what about the 72 other disciples He sent out? They were given power to heal! How come, the "ONLY" true organization of God today wasn't given the same power?
Luke 10:7-9 (ESVST) Do not go from house to house. 8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
Luke 9:1-2 (ESVST) 1 And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.
Ahhh, you might say, "they were apostles", what about the 72 other disciples He sent out? They were given power to heal! How come, the "ONLY" true organization of God today wasn't given the same power?
Luke 10:7-9 (ESVST) Do not go from house to house. 8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
What does being "ANOINTED" mean to you?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus entrusts His message to the seventy in Luke 10:16. He tells them that those who won't listen are rejecting Him and in turn rejecting God. Jesus also entrusts ALL of His followers to carry His message to the whole world. He tells them, and us to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe everything He commanded (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15-16).
Where in Luke 10:16, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15-16, or ANYWHERE does it say Jesus' mediatorship extends outward from the anointed, literal 144,000, to the great crowd?
I agree with you that God's ruling power is everywhere, whether it be heaven, earth or the moon. However, the throne of God is in heaven. I'm sure you would agree.
Revelation 19:1, 6 tells us the great crowd is in heaven, standing before the throne of God.
Revelation 7:15 tells us the great crowd stand before the throne of God, and serve Him night and day in His temple.
You still have not answered my question.
Where in Scripture does it say that only the 144,000 are in heaven?
Watchtower claims there will be only 144,000 in heaven.
“the final number of the heavenly church will be 144,000, according to God’s decree” (Let God Be True, p. 113).
Last edited:
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I'm wondering why you have not addressed my last post to you. If you look at ALERTS, you can find it listed there.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Ahhhhhh, now that is the question!!!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If you think any of these statements are supportive of a three-in-one God, you have a major problem with reading comprehension. None of these statements -- all of which I actually agree with -- even remotely describe the Trinity most Christians believe in today. As a matter of fact, your quote of Athenagoros so perfectly describes Mormon doctrine that it could very well have been written by any LDS leader today.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
There isn't a thing wrong with JFish123's reading comprehension, and I question your personal attack against his intelligence. Who is being hateful now? It seems you still don't see the difference between attacking the person and attacking the doctrine.
The early church Fathers supported the trinitarian view from the beginning, even though the word "trinity" didn't come into vogue until later. They got the concept from the Scriptures, and their writings prove it. They understood that the Father is GOD. Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD.
- "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).8
- 140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).
- 150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63
- 170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21
- 177 AD Melito of Sardis "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's The Guide 13)
- 180 AD Irenaeus "...so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." - Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3.
- 180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)
- 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)
- 200 AD Tertullian "All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced...the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed." (Against Praxeas, ch 11)
averageJOE
zombie
"However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it."Deuteronomy 18:20-22
Oh well...as long as they continue to "correct" themselves, right?
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Try listening to Jesus--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- either Jesus is right--or God has a God.