Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Wharton]

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I asked my friend today about this, and I'd like to ask the JW's on this forum.

JW's don't vote, they do not recognize the US flag, do not support any form of the US Government. How can you justify living in a country and enjoy all the privilege's of freedom and talk crap on it and call it satans government like you do? All the people that died and were disabled protecting this country and you just treat it as garbage. How can you justify that?

By taking Satan's Social Security/MediCare with no problem?

 

[Katzpur]

Wow. You pay your taxes. Whoopee! Give you a medal.

No further comments except for the following:

Why do you assume that we think everyone would be a Christian? This all or nothing suggestion is silly.

Silly is an understatement, which is why I never even implied such a thing.

Only two categories of people will not survive the end of this system....those who don't know, because they don't want to know...and those who know, but fail to obey. (2 Thess 1:6-10) "Just like the days of Noah", Jesus said...how many survived the flood? (Matt24:36-39) The Bible's message could not be plainer.

Well, apparently it could be, because if it were as plain as you seem to think it is, we'd all be JWs, wouldn't we? You know, I used to quite like JWs. A lot has changed over the past couple of years.

 

[Wharton]

Is that "doing the will of the Father" or doing your own will whilst ignoring Christ's teachings?

You better read Joshua 10, 11 and 12, then get back to us on that one.

 

[Wharton]

Jesus accepts no compromise, when there is no ignorance to excuse it..

He is also genuinely PO;d when you commit sins of omission by not voting to correct evil and thus, allowing evil to occur. By not participating in civic functions such as zoning boards, town councils and planning boards to ensure that justice is done to your neighbor.

 

[Wharton]

JW's don't vote, they do not recognize the US flag, do not support any form of the US Government. How can you justify living in a country and enjoy all the privilege's of freedom and talk crap on it and call it satans government like you do? All the people that died and were disabled protecting this country and you just treat it as garbage. How can you justify that?

Yeah, I guess my father and his fellow Marines wasted their time in Australia protecting JayJayDee's relatives before being shipped out to New Guinea. We should have let the Japanese take over Australia so they could be nice to the JW's.

 

[JayJayDee]

Wow. You pay your taxes. Whoopee! Give you a medal.

So when you can't reply to the points made, you use sarcasm.....yep. I have come to expect that from you Katzpur.

No further comments except for the following:

Silly is an understatement, which is why I never even implied such a thing.

Read your reply again...that is exactly what you implied.

This is what you said......

"I'm just wondering how Jehovah's Witnesses think any country in the world could function without an earthly government. Can you even imagine the chaos that would ensue if we all just declined to involve ourselves in any civic or government affairs? Suppose absolutely nobody were to vote or be willing to serve in elected office. We'd have no law enforcement because we'd have no laws! We'd have crime unlike anything any of us could possibly imagine. I mean it's just utterly absurd to even try to imagine such a situation. Jesus may have said that we should be no part of this world, but there's more than one way to interpret those words. He did, after all, say, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." He didn't say, "Render nothing unto Caesar. Show no support for any laws except God's. Close your eyes and pretend the world simply doesn't exist."

You were suggesting that chaos would reign if "nobody" was willing to vote or to serve in the military or public office. The world will provide its own to do that. Christians were not to be among them. We do render Caesars things to Caesar, but we know where to draw the line.

@Wharton I hope you and Katzpur will kindly consider the following......

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)

“It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276)

“In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382)

“The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125)

“The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would notserve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131)

“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (Editorial introduction to “Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)

“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.

History disagrees with your position. Christians have no business in politics or bloodshed.

if it were as plain as you seem to think it is, we'd all be JWs, wouldn't we?

No we wouldn't...because there are "sheep" and "goats" in this world and Jesus is about to do some separating. There are "wheat" and "weeds" as well.....(Matt 7:21-23) Thankfully Christ is the judge...not you or I.

You know, I used to quite like JWs. A lot has changed over the past couple of years.

Your personal opinion of JW's is really no concern of mine. Your truth is pitted against my truth in a public forum. And there is nothing in the rules that says we have to like each other.
You got your nose out of joint over something I said quite some time ago and your comments to me have been sarcastic ever since. What is that old saying?...if you can't stand the heat...?
Time to let it go, don't you think?

I have had some really nice conversations with young Mormon missionaries here over the years, but I don't judge them by your attitude. I still like them very much as people and admire their strong family values.....but I totally disagree with their beliefs, as they disagree with mine. Shame we never see them anymore.

 

[Pegg]

Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

John 10:16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

Where in these two verses you quoted does it say Jesus'mediatorship extends outward from the 144,000 anointed JW's to the rank and file JW's by association.

When I find it hard to understand something, I think and Pray about it...sometimes for weeks before I can see it clearly.

I would encourage you to mediate on why Jesus addressed some of his disciples as his 'little flock' but others as the 'other sheep' ...what makes these two groups different? Who are they? Do some digging around in the bible because the answers are there.

What these verses say is absolutely true. The problem YOU are having is PROVING who the "called" are. Can you prove with Scripture that the 144,000 is a literal number? Unless you can prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, then it is really just your opinion.


Please prove the 144,000 to be the literal number of those called out.

We believe it is a literal number for a few reasons.

1. In the book of Revelation, John could count the number of those he saw standing with Christ, but then when he saw the Great Crowd he said he could not number them. That is significant and to us indicates that one number is limited while the other is not.

2. Gods purpose for the earth has not changed. He says at Isaiah 45:18 “he formed it to be inhabited.” He obviously wants mankind to continue living here. So someone is going to remain on earth... it wont be angels and it definitely wont be the ones who are judging the 'entire inhabited earth'

3. Those who do go to heaven to be with Christ are said to sit as judges and kings over mankind. So you have to ask, who are they judging? It is not perfect angels they judge...nor do they judge anone in heaven. The logical conclusion is that they are judging the people who will remain on earth to fulfill Gods purpose on earth.

​

I promise you I did take the time to read each passage slowly and carefully.​

I did not see in any of the verses you posted where it says the New Covenant is between God and the 144,000 ONLY. So I'll ask again.

What Scripture says the New Covenant, signed in Jesus' blood, is an agreement between God and the 144,000 ONLY?

Jehovah made his own covenant with Jesus.
The covenant Jesus made with his Apostles was called the 'new' covenant and is different to the one Jehovah made with Jesus.
Jesus said to his apostles: Luke 22: 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me+ in my trials;+29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,+30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Do you see how Jesus makes his own covenant with his apostles? 'I make a covenant with you JUST AS my Father made a Covenant with me'
This is Jesus making a covenant with his apostles for a seat in his kingdom.
It is not the covenant that God made with Jesus to be the King of the kingdom, but a secondary covenant which Christ made with his apostles to sit as judges with him.

 

[Pegg]

How did the GB become anointed. Who picked them?

Jehovah selects them personally.

 

[Pegg]

Civil parasites.

all of Gods creations have their place

 

[Pegg]

I totally agree! (JayJayDee is not an American, by the way, so she may say that your comments do not apply to her.) I'm just wondering how Jehovah's Witnesses think any country in the world could function without an earthly government. Can you even imagine the chaos that would ensue if we all just declined to involve ourselves in any civic or government affairs? Suppose absolutely nobody were to vote or be willing to serve in elected office. We'd have no law enforcement because we'd have no laws! We'd have crime unlike anything any of us could possibly imagine. I mean it's just utterly absurd to even try to imagine such a situation. Jesus may have said that we should be no part of this world, but there's more than one way to interpret those words. He did, after all, say, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." He didn't say, "Render nothing unto Caesar. Show no support for any laws except God's. Close your eyes and pretend the world simply doesn't exist."

You raise a good point Katzpur. But isnt it true that even with governments, we still have a degree of Chaos?

Can you imagine what it must be like to live in Iraq or Syria or Egypt at the moment? Those countries have governments, and yet chaos reigns.

What does it tell you about human government?

 

[Pegg]

Yeah, I guess my father and his fellow Marines wasted their time in Australia protecting JayJayDee's relatives before being shipped out to New Guinea. We should have let the Japanese take over Australia so they could be nice to the JW's.

Why would it matter what nationality rules any given country? The Japanese gave us Sushi And they are a very civil and respectful people. I wouldnt mind a Japanese person being the head of our little piece of dirt.

 

[james2ko]

@james2ko i might just ask you 8f you believe Jesus has all authority in Heaven an on earth?

He does. And as the authority of both places, it gives Him the prerogative as to where He chooses to rule from and when! The scriptures plainly state He will eventually make earth His dwelling place. Now please answer the question that you've been dodging for several days-- Utilizing the law of non-contradiction, find me two scriptures that contradict the fact Jesus could and would never dwell or rule from the earth?

 

[james2ko]

I see Pegg had already answered you--I would give you the same answer.Then if you wont look it up for yourself, you obviously do not care to have the answer, so why bother asking.

No. She didn't. When she gets cornered, she dodges the tough questions and statements and starts asking trivial questions:

Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God?? | Page 189 | ReligiousForums.com

 

[katiemygirl]

When I find it hard to understand something, I think and Pray about it...sometimes for weeks before I can see it clearly.

I would encourage you to mediate on why Jesus addressed some of his disciples as his 'little flock' but others as the 'other sheep' ...what makes these two groups different? Who are they? Do some digging around in the bible because the answers are there.



We believe it is a literal number for a few reasons.

1. In the book of Revelation, John could count the number of those he saw standing with Christ, but then when he saw the Great Crowd he said he could not number them. That is significant and to us indicates that one number is limited while the other is not.

2. Gods purpose for the earth has not changed. He says at Isaiah 45:18 “he formed it to be inhabited.” He obviously wants mankind to continue living here. So someone is going to remain on earth... it wont be angels and it definitely wont be the ones who are judging the 'entire inhabited earth'

3. Those who do go to heaven to be with Christ are said to sit as judges and kings over mankind. So you have to ask, who are they judging? It is not perfect angels they judge...nor do they judge anone in heaven. The logical conclusion is that they are judging the people who will remain on earth to fulfill Gods purpose on earth.

​

Jehovah made his own covenant with Jesus.
The covenant Jesus made with his Apostles was called the 'new' covenant and is different to the one Jehovah made with Jesus.
Jesus said to his apostles: Luke 22: 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me+ in my trials;+29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,+30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Do you see how Jesus makes his own covenant with his apostles? 'I make a covenant with you JUST AS my Father made a Covenant with me'
This is Jesus making a covenant with his apostles for a seat in his kingdom.
It is not the covenant that God made with Jesus to be the King of the kingdom, but a secondary covenant which Christ made with his apostles to sit as judges with him.

Thank you for your response.

I'm going to reread your post again, and I will address it later, but for the time being, you have not provided a Scripture which says,

"Jesus' mediatorship extends outward from the 144,000 anounted to the great crowd."

Can I take this to mean that there is no such Scripture?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I totally agree! (JayJayDee is not an American, by the way, so she may say that your comments do not apply to her.) I'm just wondering how Jehovah's Witnesses think any country in the world could function without an earthly government. Can you even imagine the chaos that would ensue if we all just declined to involve ourselves in any civic or government affairs? Suppose absolutely nobody were to vote or be willing to serve in elected office. We'd have no law enforcement because we'd have no laws! We'd have crime unlike anything any of us could possibly imagine. I mean it's just utterly absurd to even try to imagine such a situation. Jesus may have said that we should be no part of this world, but there's more than one way to interpret those words. He did, after all, say, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." He didn't say, "Render nothing unto Caesar. Show no support for any laws except God's. Close your eyes and pretend the world simply doesn't exist."

I said to my JW friend, do you think God doesn't want His people in control of this world? The old testament tells us God chose kings to represent Him on earth." Then I asked him, " what do you think this world would be like if, the GB, God's only channel to the world today would be elected into presidential offices and all government offices were held by JW's?" All he would say is, "they would never do that because we are no part of the world." I asked him if he really believed that God wants His people to just sit back and do nothing except wait for the Kingdom to come. All he could say was "satan is the ruler of this world." I said, yes he is, but where are we commanded not to take it back! He couldn't answer that.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Mountain_Climber, post: 4369379, member: 57086"] Leaves me speechless.

Nothing leaves you speechless.

Question One: "Where in Scripture does it say that Jesus' mediatorship is extended outward from the 144,000 anointed to the great crowd."

Answer: Actually the scriptures speak of that at Matthew 5:13-16 as well as a few other places. It is to the born again members of the 144,000 that the words of Jesus at John 7:38 apply, "He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." This is why, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

Indeed at Revelation 7:17, the "living fountains of waters" are the 144,000 who have that life giving water flowing from their bellies just as Jesus spoke concerning at John 7:38.

None of the Scriptures you've cited say that there are 144,000 mediators. There is only ONE mediator. What part of "ONE" don't you get?

1 Tim. 2:5
There is ONE God and ONE mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Question: "Where in Scripture does it say the New Covenant is between God and the 144,000 anointed ONLY?"

Answer:
Acts 3:25 "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."

Now reason that on through. Those that enter the covenant with Christ become the "One New Man." (Ephesians 2:15) Thus these ones are that conquering 144,000 who as "One New Man" in Christ, become as that One seed by whom , "all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." There is of necessity those who are one seed with Christ and there is those who are blessed by means of those who are one seed ("one new man") with Christ. The saving of these ones has been about preparing fountains of life-giving water for the redemption of the nations during the millennial reign of Christ's kingdom, shortly to begin.

The burden of proof is on YOU to first show the 144,000 is a literal number, and not a figurative one.

ALL men are commanded to enter into the New Covenant (Acts 17:30).

ALL Christians enter into the New Covenant when they obey the gospel of Jesus Christ (when they are born again).

Acts 3:25 says ALL the kindreds in the earth be blessed.

Question: "Where in Scripture does it say that only the 144,000 are in heaven?"

I will bow out from that question as it is my belief that the entire idea of humans who were made for the earth going to literally live in heaven as spirit creatures is a major missed understanding of the scriptures by the many.

Good, because it is easily proven that the elders and multitudes stand before the throne of God and serve Him night and day in His temple, which is heaven.

 

[katiemygirl]

No. She didn't. When she gets cornered, she dodges the tough questions and statements and starts asking trivial questions:

Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God?? | Page 189 | ReligiousForums.com

Pegg may have not seen your question. She is usually very good at answering all questions. You might want to try reposting your question to her.

Pegg and I may disagree on many things, but in my book, she is the most reasonable and forthcoming JW I've come across on forums.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Answer: Actually the scriptures speak of that at Matthew 5:13-16 as well as a few other places. It is to the born again members of the 144,000 that the words of Jesus at John 7:38 apply, "He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." This is why, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

WOW! Do you believe in Jesus? I know I do! Does that make me one of the 144,000?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

except the JW teachers make corrections and the light is very bright now but not 100% yet

I guess Proverbs 4:18 was written specifically for the GB, because no one in the Bible had ever used that excuse when they wrote what they were led by the spirit to write. Seems they always got it right. Imagine that, WOW, imperfect men who listen to God getting it right the first time! How could that be?

 

[katiemygirl]

WOW! Do you believe in Jesus? I know I do! Does that make me one of the 144,000?

The burden of proof lies squarely on Watchtower and its followers to show that the 144,000 is a literal number of Christians and not a figurative one.

It is very poor hermeneutics to take one term in a passage and claim it is literal, while saying all other terms are figurative.

All of Christendom believes the 144,000 is a figurative number. The tiny percentile of JW's are the only ones who say it is a literal number. This is why the burden of proof lies with JW's.