Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Pegg]

I did what most 13 year old kids would do who was taught that the elders were appointed by the Holy Spirit. I thought at that time that I wasn't good enough for God and he didn't want me. They never told me that I could try again, so at that age I was under the impression that I was unbaptizable. Obviously, the older I got I realized that they were only power hungry men and that God wasn't involved at all. Elders are just men that have no backing from God.

So what you thought as a 13 yr old is very different to what think now.

There is a good reason why very few young people get baptised as jw's.

It seems that your understanding back then was not complete if you took it to mean that you were not good enough and Jehovah did not want you. He wants everyone to dedicate themselves to him....but only when they are ready to do so. And if you really concluded that you wer'ent good enough, then you really didnt understand exactly what Jehovah required of you. So the right decision was made and it was Jehovah who made it.

What do you think baptism means nowadays?

 

[Shak34]

So what you thought as a 13 yr old is very different to what think now.

There is a good reason why very few young people get baptised as jw's.

It seems that your understanding back then was not complete if you took it to mean that you were not good enough and Jehovah did not want you. He wants everyone to dedicate themselves to him....but only when they are ready to do so. And if you really concluded that you wer'ent good enough, then you really didnt understand exactly what Jehovah required of you. So the right decision was made and it was Jehovah who made it.

What do you think baptism means nowadays?

Most people are young when they are baptized as a jw. Mark Sanderson recently gave a talk saying how the governing body urges parents to have their children baptized between the ages of 9 to 11. At the 2015 convention governing body member Anthony Morris gave a talk, I think it was the Sunday talk, where he said that if a kid is not ready to be baptized by the age of 16 then no drivers license. JW's have always been about baptizing young.

I believe the same thing about baptism as I did back then. It is a persons way of fully giving your life over to God. Living your life no longer for yourself but in service to God. The only difference now is that I know that the elders are not appointed by the Holy Spirit and that their decision are not gods.

 

[JayJayDee]

Really? Did the scriptures talk of a judicial committee or of a meeting?
Acts 15:6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

It wasn't an ongoing committee it was once. It wasn't about individuals it was about the whole movement. It was made up of Apostles and elders. Are these judicial committees made up of Apostles and elders? The JWs are not practicing Acts 15:6, they have adapted it and turned it into something altogether different.

Can I ask how many elders or overseers there are assigned in any congregation?

Can you tell me when a single clergyman was put in charge of a congregation in Christendom's church system? You see, in the first century, there was no "clergy". There were shepherds and teachers who were appointed men in the congregation....men with qualifications as to fitness to hold that position. It didn't require a university degree in theology. It was not a position of power, but one of service to the entire congregation. These elders as a collective were true shepherds, who knew the members of the flock individually. There was never just one of them, but a body of men who shouldered and shared the responsibilities between them. This is the pattern that JW's have followed. We have a body of older men who are shepherds and teachers...the ones we are told to "obey" and whose faith we are to imitate when they fulfil their role in a worthy way. (Heb 13:7, 17)

Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was instruction to these elders when someone was found to be disregarding the laws of God in an unrepentant manner. This is what Paul said....

1 Corinthians 5:9-13...."I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (NASB)

Who were in a position to take this action if not the body of elders? Who were to keep watch over the souls of the ones in their care by removing a corrupting influence in the congregation. Who was to administer this discipline?

Hebrews 12:5-6..."And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Hebrews 12:8, 11....."If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons......For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. "(ESV)

Discipline is a loving arrangement. Paul said it could be "painful" and that we could "be weary when we are reproved" by that discipline. But who actually carries it out? The Bible is clear that the elders are to judge "inside" the congregation. Those who just see the imperfect men are forgetting that they are directed by God's spirit to carry out that assignment faithfully and impartially. They are also doubly accountable to God for administering justice. No member is disfellowshipped lightly. There are hearings and witnesses called, prayer and much deliberating, just as if it were in a court of law....but it is Jehovah's court and he will see that justice is done.

What would happen in the churches today if members who had sinned were disciplined by being put out of the congregation? There would be an uproar! But it is encumbent upon the shepherds to discipline the flock. They are not showing love by allowing anyone to do as they please and to influence others to do likewise.

If you just see the discipline without the motive behind it, you will fall to self centred satanic thinking. That just inspires anger and a vengeful spirit. Those who come back to Jehovah are chastened by the discipline and grateful for it. Those who chafe under it and become belligerent and angry will not be welcomed back. As Paul said...they are "handed over to satan"....why? So that they might be "saved in the day of the Lord". (1 Cor 5:5) Those who learn their lesson will not perish with this wicked world, but will among those saved for everlasting life as obedient sheep of the Great Shepherd, when he comes as judge of all the earth.

 

[Pegg]

Most people are young when they are baptized as a jw. Mark Sanderson recently gave a talk saying how the governing body urges parents to have their children baptized between the ages of 9 to 11. At the 2015 convention governing body member Anthony Morris gave a talk, I think it was the Sunday talk, where he said that if a kid is not ready to be baptized by the age of 16 then no drivers license. JW's have always been about baptizing young.

That is easy to say, but the reality is that the majority of baptismal candidates are adults.
Parents have no say in when a young person is baptised because its not the parents decision to make. I think the talk you are refering to was about a parent teaching their children in such a way that the child is spiritually mature enough to be baptised at a younger age then what is currently the norm.
The Elders will not baptise any young person who is not mature enough to fully comprehend the serious step of baptism.

How old do you think Jesus was when he was baptised?

I believe the same thing about baptism as I did back then. It is a persons way of fully giving your life over to God. Living your life no longer for yourself but in service to God. The only difference now is that I know that the elders are not appointed by the Holy Spirit and that their decision are not gods.

What does it mean to be baptised in the Name of the Father?

 

[savagewind]

I would disagree with you on that point.

The scriptures do not record any further communication between Jehovah and Adam. He was exiled.

That is what spiritual death implies... God, our spirituak Father and source of our spiritual light, is no longer with us.

ISAIAH 1:15
And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;​

To me its evidence that it is not the elders who decide when a person is restored to Jehovahs favor but Jehovah himself who decides.

If it is Jehovah who decides who gets reinstated then is it always Jehovah who accepts or rejects a person for a place in the organization?

If it is then we have to assume your god is stupid because he accepts child abusers for honorable posts.

 

[e.r.m.]

Can I ask how many elders or overseers there are assigned in any congregation?

Can you tell me when a single clergyman was put in charge of a congregation in Christendom's church system? You see, in the first century, there was no "clergy". There were shepherds and teachers who were appointed men in the congregation....men with qualifications as to fitness to hold that position. It didn't require a university degree in theology. It was not a position of power, but one of service to the entire congregation. These elders as a collective were true shepherds, who knew the members of the flock individually. There was never just one of them, but a body of men who shouldered and shared the responsibilities between them. This is the pattern that JW's have followed. We have a body of older men who are shepherds and teachers...the ones we are told to "obey" and whose faith we are to imitate when they fulfil their role in a worthy way. (Heb 13:7, 17)

Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was instruction to these elders when someone was found to be disregarding the laws of God in an unrepentant manner. This is what Paul said....

1 Corinthians 5:9-13...."I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (NASB)

Who were in a position to take this action if not the body of elders? Who were to keep watch over the souls of the ones in their care by removing a corrupting influence in the congregation. Who was to administer this discipline?

Hebrews 12:5-6..."And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Hebrews 12:8, 11....."If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons......For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. "(ESV)

Discipline is a loving arrangement. Paul said it could be "painful" and that we could "be weary when we are reproved" by that discipline. But who actually carries it out? The Bible is clear that the elders are to judge "inside" the congregation. Those who just see the imperfect men are forgetting that they are directed by God's spirit to carry out that assignment faithfully and impartially. They are also doubly accountable to God for administering justice. No member is disfellowshipped lightly. There are hearings and witnesses called, prayer and much deliberating, just as if it were in a court of law....but it is Jehovah's court and he will see that justice is done.

What would happen in the churches today if members who had sinned were disciplined by being put out of the congregation? There would be an uproar! But it is encumbent upon the shepherds to discipline the flock. They are not showing love by allowing anyone to do as they please and to influence others to do likewise.

If you just see the discipline without the motive behind it, you will fall to self centred satanic thinking. That just inspires anger and a vengeful spirit. Those who come back to Jehovah are chastened by the discipline and grateful for it. Those who chafe under it and become belligerent and angry will not be welcomed back. As Paul said...they are "handed over to satan"....why? So that they might be "saved in the day of the Lord". (1 Cor 5:5) Those who learn their lesson will not perish with this wicked world, but will among those saved for everlasting life as obedient sheep of the Great Shepherd, when he comes as judge of all the earth.

Timothy and Titus led their congregations, along with the Elders.

I understand disfellowshipping, we have disfellowshipped people before.

 

[Shak34]

That is easy to say, but the reality is that the majority of baptismal candidates are adults.

Your reality isn't the same as the organizations.

w11 6/15 p. 6 Should Youths Get Baptized? ***A Christian mother writes: “Children who are baptized have more reasons to stay away from the bad things of the world. My son, baptized at 15, feels that baptism is a protection. ‘You don’t think about doing something contrary to Jehovah’s law,’ he said. Baptism is a strong motivation for righteousness.”



w06 7/1 pp. 29-30 par. 16 Youths, Make It Your Choice to Serve Jehovah ***Numerous Witnesses around the world feel that their decision to get baptized when they were young helped them greatly. Take as an example a 23-year-old Witness in Western Europe. He recalls that getting baptized at the age of 13 motivated him to be careful not to be swept away by “the desires incidental to youth.” (2 Timothy 2:22) Early on, he set his sights on serving as a full-time minister. Today, he serves happily at a branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rich blessings await all youths, including you, who choose to serve Jehovah.



w87 4/15 p. 13 par. 14 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***If one has ‘counted the cost,’ it places one at no disadvantage to make a dedication as a youth. With almost all new Christians, after baptism appreciation deepens. “Getting baptized as a youngster was a protection for me,” explained David. “As I got older, I noticed how some unbaptized teenagers in the congregation felt free of the authority of the elders and as a consequence veered into bad conduct. But I always remembered that I had dedicated my life to God. My life was already taken, so I could not follow such teenagers.”

There are many more articles about members being baptized at young ages and how good it is.

Parents have no say in when a young person is baptised because its not the parents decision to make. I think the talk you are refering to was about a parent teaching their children in such a way that the child is spiritually mature enough to be baptised at a younger age then what is currently the norm.
The Elders will not baptise any young person who is not mature enough to fully comprehend the serious step of baptism.

In the end it is the elders that have the yes or no to baptism, but it is the parents that study with and prep the child. So wanting to have children baptize at the age of 9 -11 as GB Mark Sanderson said in his may 2015 Germany public talk starts with the parents and is reality.

How old do you think Jesus was when he was baptised?

Jesus was 30, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. The only way that would be relevant is if the JW's followed in those foot steps and weren't allow baptism until that age.

What does it mean to be baptised in the Name of the Father?

It means that a person is accepting the fathers(God's) authority and laws. His purpose is now your purpose.

 

[JFish123]

Your reality isn't the same as the organizations.

w11 6/15 p. 6 Should Youths Get Baptized? ***A Christian mother writes: “Children who are baptized have more reasons to stay away from the bad things of the world. My son, baptized at 15, feels that baptism is a protection. ‘You don’t think about doing something contrary to Jehovah’s law,’ he said. Baptism is a strong motivation for righteousness.”



w06 7/1 pp. 29-30 par. 16 Youths, Make It Your Choice to Serve Jehovah ***Numerous Witnesses around the world feel that their decision to get baptized when they were young helped them greatly. Take as an example a 23-year-old Witness in Western Europe. He recalls that getting baptized at the age of 13 motivated him to be careful not to be swept away by “the desires incidental to youth.” (2 Timothy 2:22) Early on, he set his sights on serving as a full-time minister. Today, he serves happily at a branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rich blessings await all youths, including you, who choose to serve Jehovah.



w87 4/15 p. 13 par. 14 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***If one has ‘counted the cost,’ it places one at no disadvantage to make a dedication as a youth. With almost all new Christians, after baptism appreciation deepens. “Getting baptized as a youngster was a protection for me,” explained David. “As I got older, I noticed how some unbaptized teenagers in the congregation felt free of the authority of the elders and as a consequence veered into bad conduct. But I always remembered that I had dedicated my life to God. My life was already taken, so I could not follow such teenagers.”

There are many more articles about members being baptized at young ages and how good it is.



In the end it is the elders that have the yes or no to baptism, but it is the parents that study with and prep the child. So wanting to have children baptize at the age of 9 -11 as GB Mark Sanderson said in his may 2015 Germany public talk starts with the parents and is reality.


Jesus was 30, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. The only way that would be relevant is if the JW's followed in those foot steps and weren't allow baptism until that age.



It means that a person is accepting the fathers(God's) authority and laws. His purpose is now your purpose.

It is interesting that JW's proclaim that they follow the bible and Jesus to the letter, avoiding even a birthday party? But Jesus was baptized as an adult, so why do they not follow and baptize kids?

 

[averageJOE]

What do you think baptism means nowadays?

From my post #3520
1985: (2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

A JW baptism means to make a vow to be a non-paid employee to the Watchtower and bible Tract Society business corporation.

 

[e.r.m.]

Your reality isn't the same as the organizations.

w11 6/15 p. 6 Should Youths Get Baptized? ***A Christian mother writes: “Children who are baptized have more reasons to stay away from the bad things of the world. My son, baptized at 15, feels that baptism is a protection. ‘You don’t think about doing something contrary to Jehovah’s law,’ he said. Baptism is a strong motivation for righteousness.”



w06 7/1 pp. 29-30 par. 16 Youths, Make It Your Choice to Serve Jehovah ***Numerous Witnesses around the world feel that their decision to get baptized when they were young helped them greatly. Take as an example a 23-year-old Witness in Western Europe. He recalls that getting baptized at the age of 13 motivated him to be careful not to be swept away by “the desires incidental to youth.” (2 Timothy 2:22) Early on, he set his sights on serving as a full-time minister. Today, he serves happily at a branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rich blessings await all youths, including you, who choose to serve Jehovah.



w87 4/15 p. 13 par. 14 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***If one has ‘counted the cost,’ it places one at no disadvantage to make a dedication as a youth. With almost all new Christians, after baptism appreciation deepens. “Getting baptized as a youngster was a protection for me,” explained David. “As I got older, I noticed how some unbaptized teenagers in the congregation felt free of the authority of the elders and as a consequence veered into bad conduct. But I always remembered that I had dedicated my life to God. My life was already taken, so I could not follow such teenagers.”

There are many more articles about members being baptized at young ages and how good it is.



In the end it is the elders that have the yes or no to baptism, but it is the parents that study with and prep the child. So wanting to have children baptize at the age of 9 -11 as GB Mark Sanderson said in his may 2015 Germany public talk starts with the parents and is reality.


Jesus was 30, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. The only way that would be relevant is if the JW's followed in those foot steps and weren't allow baptism until that age.



It means that a person is accepting the fathers(God's) authority and laws. His purpose is now your purpose.

Water baptism in Jesus's name is to be accompanied with belief and repentance for salvation/forgiveness of sins Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38. Children 9-11 generally do not have the capacity for that kind of understanding and commitment.
Plus, I find it interesting that JWs told me in the 80s that they believed water baptism was for forgiveness of sins/salvation, but nowadays they've taken the by grace alone, through faith alone position that it's act of obedience, and all that. Plus, the last time they came to my house, they presented very much like Baptists. Are JW's moving in the direction of becoming more like evangelicals?

 

[e.r.m.]

I would disagree with you on that point.

The scriptures do not record any further communication between Jehovah and Adam. He was exiled.

That is what spiritual death implies... God, our spirituak Father and source of our spiritual light, is no longer with us.

ISAIAH 1:15
And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;​

Ok, I can't dispute no record of further communication with Adam.

 

[JFish123]

Ok, I can't dispute no record of further communication with Adam.

Because of Adam and Eve, they and there descendants are equally sinful, separated from God. But that doesn't mean God stopped communicating with them.
Did God walk and talk with Adam and Eve after they sinned and ate the forbidden fruit?
We know that God would not permit Adam and Eve back into the Garden of Eden after they sinned, but He did continue to speak and fellowship with them and their descendants. Here are some verses that disclose this truth:
"Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden."
(Gen. 4:16)
"Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters."
"So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."
(Gen. 5:21-24)
Just because we don't have it recorded that God communicated with Adam, there's also no record that God did not. We see men after Adam had communication and walked with God, and since all these men are equally sinful and separated from God like Adam, and God talked with them, we can assume since the Bible doesn't say God didn't, that God did in some way after the fall still talk to His creation

 

[e.r.m.]

Because of Adam and Eve, they and there descendants are equally sinful, separated from God. But that doesn't mean God stopped communicating with them.
Did God walk and talk with Adam and Eve after they sinned and ate the forbidden fruit?
We know that God would not permit Adam and Eve back into the Garden of Eden after they sinned, but He did continue to speak and fellowship with them and their descendants. Here are some verses that disclose this truth:
"Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden."
(Gen. 4:16)
"Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters."
"So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."
(Gen. 5:21-24)
Just because we don't have it recorded that God communicated with Adam, there's also no record that God did not. We see men after Adam had communication and walked with God, and since all these men are equally sinful and separated from God like Adam, and God talked with them, we can assume since the Bible doesn't say God didn't, that God did in some way after the fall still talk to His creation

Yeah, I don't think God disowned Adam and Eve, just conceding the point that there was no record of Him talking with them.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yeah, I don't think God disowned Adam and Eve, just conceding the point that there was no record of Him talking with them.

When God confronted the pair with their sin, each blamed the other and Adam even blamed God for giving him the woman. (Gen 3:8-15) There is not one single expression of remorse from either of them, nor is there any sacrifice made to God as an expression that they were one bit sorry for what they did.
They were not happy about the penalty, but it didn't stop them from committing the offence in the first place. As perfect beings with a God-given capacity to make choices based entirely on being able to calculate the future based on current information, these two had no excuse to abuse their free will and steal what rightfully belonged to God, nor was there any basis to forgive them. Perfect beings with God's attributes and intelligence do not make mistakes...they make deliberate choices in full knowledge of the consequences. They chose to sin.

God communicated with Adam's obedient children through his representatives, but he did not have a basis to communicate directly with wilful sinners who were now on death row, with no way to make amends. His rescue mission stated as a prophesy in Eden before their eviction, was for their children, born in sin through no fault on their part. (Gen 3:15)

The players in this prophesy remained a mystery until Christ came and God revealed what it all meant.

 

[e.r.m.]

When God confronted the pair with their sin, each blamed the other and Adam even blamed God for giving him the woman. (Gen 3:8-15) There is not one single expression of remorse from either of them, nor is there any sacrifice made to God as an expression that they were one bit sorry for what they did.
They were not happy about the penalty, but it didn't stop them from committing the offence in the first place. As perfect beings with a God-given capacity to make choices based entirely on being able to calculate the future based on current information, these two had no excuse to abuse their free will and steal what rightfully belonged to God, nor was there any basis to forgive them. Perfect beings with God's attributes and intelligence do not make mistakes...they make deliberate choices in full knowledge of the consequences. They chose to sin.

God communicated with Adam's obedient children through his representatives, but he did not have a basis to communicate directly with wilful sinners who were now on death row, with no way to make amends. His rescue mission stated as a prophesy in Eden before their eviction, was for their children, born in sin through no fault on their part. (Gen 3:15)

The players in this prophesy remained a mystery until Christ came and God revealed what it all meant.

You made a good point about no remorse expressed. But there's no prophecy in Gen 4:15.

 

[Wharton]

Ask yourself this... when Adam and Eve sinned, where did God put them?

They didn't repent. But he still interacted with them.

 

[JayJayDee]

You made a good point about no remorse expressed. But there's no prophecy in Gen 4:15.

It was Gen 3:15......

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” (ESV)

The identity and of the players in this scenario remained a mystery for centuries.

This prophesy is addressing the serpent.

There is the woman, which turned out not to be Eve.

There is the offspring of the serpent (those whose father is the devil) and the offspring of the woman.

There was a crushing blow to the serpent's head by the woman's offspring after a glancing heel wound by the serpent.

Enmity was to be seen between the serpent and the woman, as well as between their offspring.

Have you never investigated this prophesy? It is fascinating to see how it all unfolded.

 

[e.r.m.]

It was Gen 3:15......

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” (ESV)

The identity and of the players in this scenario remained a mystery for centuries.

This prophesy is addressing the serpent.

There is the woman, which turned out not to be Eve.

There is the offspring of the serpent (those whose father is the devil) and the offspring of the woman.

There was a crushing blow to the serpent's head by the woman's offspring after a glancing heel wound by the serpent.

Enmity was to be seen between the serpent and the woman, as well as between their offspring.

Have you never investigated this prophesy? It is fascinating to see how it all unfolded.

Yes, sorry. I meant 3:15.
I agree with your description. Much of Christendom makes this out to be a prophecy of Christ. I don't believe it is. But there is a prophecy of enmity between the offspring of the woman and the offspring of the serpent.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes, sorry. I meant 3:15.
I agree with your description. Much of Christendom makes this out to be a prophecy of Christ. I don't believe it is. But there is a prophecy of enmity between the offspring of the woman and the offspring of the serpent.

What are your thought as to the identity of the characters in this prophesy? Why was it given?

 

[JayJayDee]

They didn't repent. But he still interacted with them.

Can you show us where God interacted with them after he evicted them from the garden?