We can't choose to believe?

[sandy whitelinger]

If there is no free will then there is no choice. Free will is about choice.

Why does will have any thing to do with choice. Why can't choice lead to will?

Yes. Damage to the brain causes issues just as it causes issues with the conscious mind. Mental illnesses also override both. If you accept free will then it can override it as well. This does not mean it will always override the subconscious but can.

Perhaps I used the wrong word. What precedes the subconscious mind?

 

[Willamena]

So, belief being, " a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true," is not dependent on truth only my perception of it?

Belief being, "acceptance that something is or is true," is your perception of that something. If it were false or in doubt, that would be your rejection of it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Belief being, "acceptance that something is or is true," is your perception of that something. If it were false or in doubt, that would be your rejection of it.

Yet, I have believed in things that are not true.

 

[Willamena]

Yet, I have believed in things that are not true.

Why?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why?

Because I believed them to be true.

 

[Shad]

Why does will have any thing to do with choice.

I see you do not understand the concept of free will. Rather than explain it I will let you read about it yourself

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-theories/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-arguments/

That should cover the basics

Why can't choice lead to will?

Free will is about choice

What precedes the subconscious mind?

Matter, the brain.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I see you do not understand the concept of free will. Rather than explain it I will let you read about it yourself

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-theories/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-arguments/

That should cover the basics

I understand the basics. I was looking for your view on it.

Free will is about choice

I believe the freedom precedes the will.

Matter, the brain.

There is a line of thought that the spirit gives rise to the will and the will give rise to the thought. Do you think that the spirit is a manifestation of the mind or just the will?

 

[Shad]

I understand the basics. I was looking for your view on it.

In relation to God or just humans?

I believe the freedom precedes the will.

Freedom is a concept not an attribute

There is a line of thought that the spirit gives rise to the will and the will give rise to the thought.

Sure in theology. If we are talking about humans this theology is irrelevent

Do you think that the spirit is a manifestation of the mind or just the will?

I do not believe in spirits or a spirit.

 

[Willamena]

Because I believed them to be true.

Do you mean that while you perceived them as true, you believed them? That's precisely what I'm saying. And when you no longer percieved them as true, you no longer believed. Belief is acceptance that something is true.

 

[Willamena]

In relation to God or just humans?

I'm guessing he meant in relation to you.

Freedom is a concept not an attribute

Like most things, it's both.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Do you mean that while you perceived them as true, you believed them? That's precisely what I'm saying. And when you no longer percieved them as true, you no longer believed. Belief is acceptance that something is true.

Ok, we are on the same page here. Now, I believe I am in control of my perceptions. Perceptions lead to beliefs. Should I choose to change my perceptions then my beliefs change. Ergo I am in control of my beliefs.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In relation to God or just humans?

Humans.

Freedom is a concept not an attribute

A concept for the physical you an attribute to the primordial you.

Sure in theology. If we are talking about humans this theology is irrelevent

Actually it comes from a philosophy. Should there be something which acts on the physical world then it is essential.

I do not believe in spirits or a spirit.

So, I can assume that you only believe in present physical universe?

 

[Willamena]

Ok, we are on the same page here. Now, I believe I am in control of my perceptions. Perceptions lead to beliefs. Should I choose to change my perceptions then my beliefs change. Ergo I am in control of my beliefs.

And I believe that perceptions of truth are beliefs, and so you are no more in control of beliefs than you are of truth.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And I believe that perceptions of truth are beliefs, and so you are no more in control of beliefs than you are of truth.

Soo, you do not believe that you control your perceptions?

 

[Willamena]

Soo, you do not believe that you control your perceptions?

Control, how? I can put on glasses and change my vision, but the truth of either perception hasn't changed. Without my glasses there is the truth of nearsightedness, and with them there is the truth that is nearsightedness corrected by lenses.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Control, how? I can put on glasses and change my vision, but the truth of either perception hasn't changed. Without my glasses there is the truth of nearsightedness, and with them there is the truth that is nearsightedness corrected by lenses.

You can decide which vision you want by either putting on your glasses or leaving them off.

 

[Willamena]

You can decide which vision you want by either putting on your glasses or leaving them off.

But nothing about my beliefs has changed by doing that.

 

[Willamena]

To give another example of where my beliefs have changed, until I was about 46 I used to believe that I had a handle on what "god" meant. Then, with the introduction of new information, I had a realization that it wasn't at all what I thought it was. New information changed my perspective, and hence my belief.

 

[Quintessence]

To give another example of where my beliefs have changed, until I was about 46 I used to believe that I had a handle on what "god" meant. Then, with the introduction of new information, I had a realization that it wasn't at all what I thought it was. New information changed my perspective, and hence my belief.

I'd like to point out that in response to this "new information" you had a variety of options:

1) Ignore it and dismiss it wholesale
2) Assimilate portions of the new information
3) Accept it and adopt it wholesale
4) Do more than one of of the above​

And from there, the changes to your worldview could be anything from:

1) Stalwartly maintaining your previous worldview
2) Making limited adjustments to your current worldview to shift to a somewhat revised worldview
3) Throwing out your previous worldview entirely and starting from scratch
4) Do more than one of the above​

Do you feel these options did not exist?

 

[leibowde84]

And which logical fallacy is that?

Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true because it has not been or cannot be proven false, or vice versa.[14]