Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There might be something to it. Especially when you think of what early Christians thought that perhaps Elijah had came back.
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We had a pre-earth life we don't have memory of?
- Thread starter JM123
- Start date
That scripture is speaking about God's foreknowledge. He was speaking to Jeremiah, no one else. In the climate in which Jeremiah preached, God needed a man he could count on the do the job of being a courageous prophet, with an inconvenient message, in amongst a wicked nation. This is in no way speaking of a pre-existence.
Jesus is the only one spoken of in scripture who is said to have existed in heaven before coming to be born as a human on earth. There was a good reason for that.....he had to be born as the exact equivalent of Adam...a sinless, mortal human....so as to pay the ransom price for all of us. A perfect sinless life had to be offered in exchange for the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children. This was to restore God's original purpose to redeemed mankind, taking them back to the paradise they lost in Eden.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
In your opinion.
Scott C.
Just one guy
Yes members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (of which I am one) believe in a pre-mortal or pre-earth life, where we lived together as sons and daughters of God in a spirit state. We believe we freely chose to come to earth and jump into this challenging experience of life, death, joy, happiness, suffering, pain, sin, redemption, learning, and growth, where we find God and learn to rely on him. We see death as "returning home" to God. There are Bible versus that support the principle. We also have other scriptures that teach it. I will say that as a Latter-day Saint, I see this as a defining belief, something really profound that impacts my worldview, my relationship to others, and my relationship to God- in a very uplifting, elevating, motivating, hopeful, and joyful sense. It resonates strongly with me.
POST ONE OF TWO
Hi @JM123 and @Scott C.
I do not think many individuals who are part of the modern Christian movements will have much data relating to the pre-creation traditions. (Or it disagrees with their doctrines so these traditions are eschewed by them). You will read about it in Scholarly publications dealing with early Jewish and early Christian religious history sites. There are biblical texts which display an assumption of pre-existence such as John 9:2 when the disciples ask Jesus “His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" since they assumed he was able to sin prior to birth. Still, most of the descriptions of this early doctrine will be found in early Jewish and early Christian texts and certainly in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic texts that converge regarding the origin of Satan and his evolution from an angel of power to an enemy of God.
Let me give you some examples :
THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF OUR SPIRITS WAS TAUGHT IN MANY CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH TEXTS
Clement of Rome, in his conversion to Christianity, relates his questions to the Apostle Peter regarding this very issue of inequality. In the Clementine Recognitions, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and plan "which He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Apostle Peter in Clementine Recognitions)
I think that one great key to forming a coherent and rational and logical model for what God is doing with mankind over the eons is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual as the apostl Peter taught Clement.
This is an early Judao-Christian concept that is found in multiple sources: For example : The Dead Sea Serek Scroll (DSS 2:1), uses the expression “me'olam le'olam” just as Barnabas (ep #8) uses it by the saying "From eons unto the eons". It meant that "you come out of the eons and you go into the eons." There is an eternity behind you, and an eternity before you. Man’s place in the eternal scheme in this ancient Christianity was different than in so many of the later doctrinal shifts Christianity has undergone.
The apostle Peter further taught Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." This is the same plan as was sung in one of the earliest Christian hymns “The pearl. The spirits of men are conducted back after they finished their testing in mortality.
In the early Christian Hyms, the Odes of Solomon , an example verse reads: Quote: "Peace was prepared for you before ever your conflict, your testing, was upon this earth, for I know them and before they came into being, I took knowledge of them, and on their faces I set my seal. Who is there that is not subject to them? They are mine and by my own right hand I set my elect ones”
It is in THIS context that the Sophia Christi , says that "All spirits are ageless and equal as to creation, but differ in degrees of power." The concept of spirits being ageless is the principle used in Barnabas in my earlier example. .
In The Gospel of Thomas, Jesus is quoted as giving similar instruction as follows: Quote: “Blessed is he who was before he came into being, and blessed are the solitary elect. For you shall find the kingdom because you came from it. You shall go there again."
The Gospel of Thomas further quotes Jesus: Quote: 'If they say to you from where do you have your origin, say to them, We have come from the light where the light has originated through itself. It stood and revealed itself in their image.' Lord, do I and man belong to the material world? The answer is you and your children belong to the Father who existed from the beginning. Your spirit came down from above from the imperishable light; for this reason the lower powers cannot approach you. But all who have known this road are immortal amidst mortal men."
This concept of pre-existence is spread throughout many, many of the ancient texts.
The Gospel of Philip (equally old and equally important to Thomas) says: "The Lord said, 'Blessed is he who was before he came into being [i.e. into the body] for he who is and was shall be.'"
Another quote from the Gospel of Philip parallels the Cabalistic teaching: : "At the Council in Heaven every spirit appeared before God in the very same form they were later to take in the human body. God examined them one by one, and many hesitated to come here and to be exposed to contamination."
In the Second Book of Enoch (the Slavonic version), Enoch writes : "Write all the souls of men, however many of them are born, for all souls are prepared to eternity before the foundation of the world."
R. H. Charles, the premier expert in pseudographia and apocrypha in his great work, The Apocrypha and Pseudapigrapha of the Old Testament , volume 2, says, "The Platonic doctrine of preexistence of souls is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt." So in explaining where the christians and Jews GOT this doctrine, he feels it was “through Egypt, Christians and Jews, he says, both adopted this” Even though pre-existent spirits was an Egyptian doctrine, I believe the Jews and Christians possessed this doctrine completely independent of the Egyptians. The doctrine was accepted and further developed by the great Jewish Historian (and Christian contemporary ) Philo. Josephus indicates it was also an Essene doctrine.
You will find it in the Beresheit Rabbah and the Tanhuma , etc. The great Historian Meyer speaks of "The doctrine of preexistence as taught by the Essenes , by Philo , the Talmud and the Cabala ,". The Apocalypse of Baruch found in R. H. Charles says, "The multitude of those who should be born was numbered and for that number a place was prepared where the living might dwell."
Such a view is different than many modern christian theology and although most all theologies ask the question: What are we here for then? Such ancient Chrisianities answer the question differently: Some christianities feel that the spirits coming down here was a calamity. Some doctrines felt that we are here in prison. We are being punished. But unlike Origen and some Gnostic schools, the Cabala does not regard life as a fall or exile but as a means of education and a beneficial trial. To pre-creation christians, our time here may be seen as a time of education and probation.
Another Jewish reference from the Zohar speaks of pre-existence : "All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world." Such doctrines dovetail perfectly with the Talmudic idea of the world as a marshaling area, a way station, while that world above is the true dwelling. We have just left it temporarily to be tested here. "All spirits which are to enter into the body exit from the day of creation of the world until the earth shall pass away." It’s like one of the discovered logia of Jesus, “This life is a bridge. We cross over, but we do not make our home here.” (I had to quote this from memory so it might not be correct - incidentally, this is an islamic saying also).
The wonderful and powerful passage in the Zadokite Document from the Dead Sea Scrolls tells how God condemned the wicked in the preexistence by not counting them among those chosen. "From of old, from the days of eternity and before they were established, he knew them and abhorred their generations. With exactitude he set out their names, but those whom he hated he caused to stray." Typical of this common background and convergence of doctrines relating to pre-existence among Jews and early Christians is the prayer of Anna in the Pseudo-Philo. "Hast thou not, O Lord, examined the heart of all generations before thou formedst the world?"
In the Secrets of Enoch in the Slavonic Enoch , the Lord says to Enoch, "Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth." And so Enoch does this, saying : "I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
Hi @JM123 and @Scott C.
I do not think many individuals who are part of the modern Christian movements will have much data relating to the pre-creation traditions. (Or it disagrees with their doctrines so these traditions are eschewed by them). You will read about it in Scholarly publications dealing with early Jewish and early Christian religious history sites. There are biblical texts which display an assumption of pre-existence such as John 9:2 when the disciples ask Jesus “His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" since they assumed he was able to sin prior to birth. Still, most of the descriptions of this early doctrine will be found in early Jewish and early Christian texts and certainly in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic texts that converge regarding the origin of Satan and his evolution from an angel of power to an enemy of God.
Let me give you some examples :
THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF OUR SPIRITS WAS TAUGHT IN MANY CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH TEXTS
Clement of Rome, in his conversion to Christianity, relates his questions to the Apostle Peter regarding this very issue of inequality. In the Clementine Recognitions, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and plan "which He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Apostle Peter in Clementine Recognitions)
I think that one great key to forming a coherent and rational and logical model for what God is doing with mankind over the eons is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual as the apostl Peter taught Clement.
This is an early Judao-Christian concept that is found in multiple sources: For example : The Dead Sea Serek Scroll (DSS 2:1), uses the expression “me'olam le'olam” just as Barnabas (ep #8) uses it by the saying "From eons unto the eons". It meant that "you come out of the eons and you go into the eons." There is an eternity behind you, and an eternity before you. Man’s place in the eternal scheme in this ancient Christianity was different than in so many of the later doctrinal shifts Christianity has undergone.
The apostle Peter further taught Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." This is the same plan as was sung in one of the earliest Christian hymns “The pearl. The spirits of men are conducted back after they finished their testing in mortality.
In the early Christian Hyms, the Odes of Solomon , an example verse reads: Quote: "Peace was prepared for you before ever your conflict, your testing, was upon this earth, for I know them and before they came into being, I took knowledge of them, and on their faces I set my seal. Who is there that is not subject to them? They are mine and by my own right hand I set my elect ones”
It is in THIS context that the Sophia Christi , says that "All spirits are ageless and equal as to creation, but differ in degrees of power." The concept of spirits being ageless is the principle used in Barnabas in my earlier example. .
In The Gospel of Thomas, Jesus is quoted as giving similar instruction as follows: Quote: “Blessed is he who was before he came into being, and blessed are the solitary elect. For you shall find the kingdom because you came from it. You shall go there again."
The Gospel of Thomas further quotes Jesus: Quote: 'If they say to you from where do you have your origin, say to them, We have come from the light where the light has originated through itself. It stood and revealed itself in their image.' Lord, do I and man belong to the material world? The answer is you and your children belong to the Father who existed from the beginning. Your spirit came down from above from the imperishable light; for this reason the lower powers cannot approach you. But all who have known this road are immortal amidst mortal men."
This concept of pre-existence is spread throughout many, many of the ancient texts.
The Gospel of Philip (equally old and equally important to Thomas) says: "The Lord said, 'Blessed is he who was before he came into being [i.e. into the body] for he who is and was shall be.'"
Another quote from the Gospel of Philip parallels the Cabalistic teaching: : "At the Council in Heaven every spirit appeared before God in the very same form they were later to take in the human body. God examined them one by one, and many hesitated to come here and to be exposed to contamination."
In the Second Book of Enoch (the Slavonic version), Enoch writes : "Write all the souls of men, however many of them are born, for all souls are prepared to eternity before the foundation of the world."
R. H. Charles, the premier expert in pseudographia and apocrypha in his great work, The Apocrypha and Pseudapigrapha of the Old Testament , volume 2, says, "The Platonic doctrine of preexistence of souls is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt." So in explaining where the christians and Jews GOT this doctrine, he feels it was “through Egypt, Christians and Jews, he says, both adopted this” Even though pre-existent spirits was an Egyptian doctrine, I believe the Jews and Christians possessed this doctrine completely independent of the Egyptians. The doctrine was accepted and further developed by the great Jewish Historian (and Christian contemporary ) Philo. Josephus indicates it was also an Essene doctrine.
You will find it in the Beresheit Rabbah and the Tanhuma , etc. The great Historian Meyer speaks of "The doctrine of preexistence as taught by the Essenes , by Philo , the Talmud and the Cabala ,". The Apocalypse of Baruch found in R. H. Charles says, "The multitude of those who should be born was numbered and for that number a place was prepared where the living might dwell."
Such a view is different than many modern christian theology and although most all theologies ask the question: What are we here for then? Such ancient Chrisianities answer the question differently: Some christianities feel that the spirits coming down here was a calamity. Some doctrines felt that we are here in prison. We are being punished. But unlike Origen and some Gnostic schools, the Cabala does not regard life as a fall or exile but as a means of education and a beneficial trial. To pre-creation christians, our time here may be seen as a time of education and probation.
Another Jewish reference from the Zohar speaks of pre-existence : "All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world." Such doctrines dovetail perfectly with the Talmudic idea of the world as a marshaling area, a way station, while that world above is the true dwelling. We have just left it temporarily to be tested here. "All spirits which are to enter into the body exit from the day of creation of the world until the earth shall pass away." It’s like one of the discovered logia of Jesus, “This life is a bridge. We cross over, but we do not make our home here.” (I had to quote this from memory so it might not be correct - incidentally, this is an islamic saying also).
The wonderful and powerful passage in the Zadokite Document from the Dead Sea Scrolls tells how God condemned the wicked in the preexistence by not counting them among those chosen. "From of old, from the days of eternity and before they were established, he knew them and abhorred their generations. With exactitude he set out their names, but those whom he hated he caused to stray." Typical of this common background and convergence of doctrines relating to pre-existence among Jews and early Christians is the prayer of Anna in the Pseudo-Philo. "Hast thou not, O Lord, examined the heart of all generations before thou formedst the world?"
In the Secrets of Enoch in the Slavonic Enoch , the Lord says to Enoch, "Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth." And so Enoch does this, saying : "I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
POST TWO OF TWO
The Doctrine of pre-mortal existence was used by early Christians to justify certain principles in early Christianity. For examples
PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF OUR SPIRITS WAS USED TO MAKE SENSE OF UNEQUAL CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING BIRTH
Gregory of Nyssa explained "The soul had a previous existence and a life of its own where, even as in this life, it was given its free agency by the Creator. And such as grew weary at doing good entered this life at a disadvantage, having passed the test less satisfactorily than others."
It was in this way that Earlier Christians used a pre-mortal existence to explain the fact that we are born into this world it's with unequal advantages Some are born blind, lame, crippled; it's terrible. Some are born into poverty; some into riches. It is the same doctrine of Nyssa: Before we came here life was a test too, and when we passed the test, we came into this world. Our life here is a reward for our performance before we came here. Nyssa uses this doctrine to explain the inequality of people being born in such varying circumstances so as to seem unfair if there was not some prior reason for current conditions. As Nyssa says : "The soul had a previous existence for even as in this life, it was a free agent."
Basilides , also a contemporary, says that suffering in this life is punishment for sins in the preexistence, not by way of denying that there was preexistence, by insisting that the opportunity to suffer here, even martyrdom, is rather a reward earned before, an opportunity for greater glory.
Origen , the great Christian theologian, who did not believe in the doctrine in his later years, says the earlier brethren taught it. He didn’t believe it, but they taught it and was trying to discourage the doctrine. Origen in his early remarks regarding pre-existence of spirits says, "The spirit stands for progress and by definition evil is refusal to accept progress. This is the principle of apostasy that you refuse to progress, and when one refused progress in the other world, you came here at a lower level. Cyril did not believe that choices we made before this life (though perhaps “foolish choices), did not amount to “sin”. "Learn this one thing," wrote Cyril of Jerusalem , "that before coming to this cosmos, the spirit did not sin, but that we came down sinless here and now. And now we sin by choice." (Thus, Cyril and Basilides may have disagreed on whether a spirit sins prior to this earth or not, but they do NOT disagree on the pre-existence OF that spirit.).
I think that the early Jewish, Christian and Islamic histories concerning pre-creation time periods and things that happened during this time create, I think, a much more logical and more historically coherent religious model. Additionally, I think these early doctrines were more intuitive as well.
If you want more data from early Judeo-Christian texts, I certainly would be willing to provide them as well as examples as to why I think the earliest doctrines and their texts are more logical and coherent than the various theories created and adopted by the later Christian movements.
Oh, by the way, the Haggadah, in it's discussion says a baby forgets it's prior life just after birth when an angel "flips the nose". It is a quaint anocdotal tradition that is at the end of a large discussion of how God chooses individual spirits whose time it is for them to go to earth and be born. If you want the story let me know.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
φιτζσεω
The Doctrine of pre-mortal existence was used by early Christians to justify certain principles in early Christianity. For examples
PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF OUR SPIRITS WAS USED TO MAKE SENSE OF UNEQUAL CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING BIRTH
Gregory of Nyssa explained "The soul had a previous existence and a life of its own where, even as in this life, it was given its free agency by the Creator. And such as grew weary at doing good entered this life at a disadvantage, having passed the test less satisfactorily than others."
It was in this way that Earlier Christians used a pre-mortal existence to explain the fact that we are born into this world it's with unequal advantages Some are born blind, lame, crippled; it's terrible. Some are born into poverty; some into riches. It is the same doctrine of Nyssa: Before we came here life was a test too, and when we passed the test, we came into this world. Our life here is a reward for our performance before we came here. Nyssa uses this doctrine to explain the inequality of people being born in such varying circumstances so as to seem unfair if there was not some prior reason for current conditions. As Nyssa says : "The soul had a previous existence for even as in this life, it was a free agent."
Basilides , also a contemporary, says that suffering in this life is punishment for sins in the preexistence, not by way of denying that there was preexistence, by insisting that the opportunity to suffer here, even martyrdom, is rather a reward earned before, an opportunity for greater glory.
Origen , the great Christian theologian, who did not believe in the doctrine in his later years, says the earlier brethren taught it. He didn’t believe it, but they taught it and was trying to discourage the doctrine. Origen in his early remarks regarding pre-existence of spirits says, "The spirit stands for progress and by definition evil is refusal to accept progress. This is the principle of apostasy that you refuse to progress, and when one refused progress in the other world, you came here at a lower level. Cyril did not believe that choices we made before this life (though perhaps “foolish choices), did not amount to “sin”. "Learn this one thing," wrote Cyril of Jerusalem , "that before coming to this cosmos, the spirit did not sin, but that we came down sinless here and now. And now we sin by choice." (Thus, Cyril and Basilides may have disagreed on whether a spirit sins prior to this earth or not, but they do NOT disagree on the pre-existence OF that spirit.).
I think that the early Jewish, Christian and Islamic histories concerning pre-creation time periods and things that happened during this time create, I think, a much more logical and more historically coherent religious model. Additionally, I think these early doctrines were more intuitive as well.
If you want more data from early Judeo-Christian texts, I certainly would be willing to provide them as well as examples as to why I think the earliest doctrines and their texts are more logical and coherent than the various theories created and adopted by the later Christian movements.
Oh, by the way, the Haggadah, in it's discussion says a baby forgets it's prior life just after birth when an angel "flips the nose". It is a quaint anocdotal tradition that is at the end of a large discussion of how God chooses individual spirits whose time it is for them to go to earth and be born. If you want the story let me know.
In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is good.
Clear
φιτζσεω
In the Facebook group "Lights of Kabbalah" there are such references. For example:
"Most souls are not new; they are not in the world for the first time. Almost every person bears the legacy of previous existences. Therefore the destiny of a person is connected not only with those things he himself creates and does, but also what happens to the soul in previous incarnations." Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz
And there's this discussion from the Chabad web site: Reincarnation
You should be aware that the website you’re posting is from the Mormon Church, which teaches a unique form of Christianity rejected by most other Christians.
The idea that one's soul pre-existed one's human existence is very old. It's found in eg Plato's >'Myth of Er'<, which sees souls being sent back to earth in certain circumstances, and in Eastern religions that include reincarnation. In Vergil's Aeneid, the hero visits the Underworld and speaks to certain people yet to be born ─ tu Marcellus eris / 'you will be Marcellus', he says at one point.
On the Christian front, the idea crops up in various places. In Paul and John (but not in Mark, Matthew or Luke) Jesus is envisaged as pre-existing in heaven before coming to earth, though that's unique to him. The poet Alfred Tennyson thought we came to this world from some greater reality which he called 'the deep'; he refers to it in several poems, but most famously in >'Crossing the Bar'< (line 7 on that link).
There'll be many more examples out there if you look for them.
Where is your evidence for that statement?
ecco
Veteran Member
I stated I was skeptical of an article that implied that a skeptic entertains the possibility of an afterlife. So I asked you to excerpt some of the salient parts and tell us what that means to you.
Instead of being able to excerpt salient parts you just responded with a nine-word "summary". Now I'm skeptical of your desire or ability to support your own argument.
ecco
Veteran Member
If he had to be born as the exact equivalent of Adam why didn't God create him as he did Adam?
Why did he impregnate a young virgin when he could have more easily just ...
Genesis 2:
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Then Jesus would truely have been "born as the exact equivalent of Adam."
Good question.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The website is Mormon, over 99% of Christians do not recognize this pre-life doctrine, as it is not a biblical doctrine.
Audie
Veteran Member
One could likewise be joyful and find resonance with
the rightness of it, when informed that they've won
the lottery.
Not so long ago we had a joyous fellow who had spent
many thousands already, the day he won, but the
next day he was not so happy when he found out he
had read the numbers wrong.
Audie
Veteran Member
Anyone should be "on to" that moldy rhetorical
trick by say the age of nine. Of course you were
suspicious.
Let me give you some examples :
THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF OUR SPIRITS WAS TAUGHT IN MANY CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH TEXTS
Clement of Rome, in his conversion to Christianity, relates his questions to the Apostle Peter regarding this very issue of inequality. In the Clementine Recognitions, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and plan "which He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Apostle Peter in Clementine Recognitions)
This concept of pre-existence is spread throughout many, many of the ancient texts.
The Gospel of Philip (equally old and equally important to Thomas) says: "The Lord said, 'Blessed is he who was before he came into being [i.e. into the body] for he who is and was shall be.'"
Another quote from the Gospel of Philip parallels the Cabalistic teaching: : "At the Council in Heaven every spirit appeared before God in the very same form they were later to take in the human body. God examined them one by one, and many hesitated to come here and to be exposed to contamination."
In the Second Book of Enoch (the Slavonic version), Enoch writes : "Write all the souls of men, however many of them are born, for all souls are prepared to eternity before the foundation of the world."
R. H. Charles, the premier expert in pseudographia and apocrypha in his great work, The Apocrypha and Pseudapigrapha of the Old Testament , volume 2, says, "The Platonic doctrine of preexistence of souls is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt." So in explaining where the christians and Jews GOT this doctrine, he feels it was “through Egypt, Christians and Jews, he says, both adopted this” Even though pre-existent spirits was an Egyptian doctrine, I believe the Jews and Christians possessed this doctrine completely independent of the Egyptians. The doctrine was accepted and further developed by the great Jewish Historian (and Christian contemporary ) Philo. Josephus indicates it was also an Essene doctrine.
You will find it in the Beresheit Rabbah and the Tanhuma , etc. The great Historian Meyer speaks of "The doctrine of preexistence as taught by the Essenes , by Philo , the Talmud and the Cabala ,". The Apocalypse of Baruch found in R. H. Charles says, "The multitude of those who should be born was numbered and for that number a place was prepared where the living might dwell."
Such a view is different than many modern christian theology and although most all theologies ask the question: What are we here for then? Such ancient Chrisianities answer the question differently: Some christianities feel that the spirits coming down here was a calamity. Some doctrines felt that we are here in prison. We are being punished. But unlike Origen and some Gnostic schools, the Cabala does not regard life as a fall or exile but as a means of education and a beneficial trial. To pre-creation christians, our time here may be seen as a time of education and probation.
Another Jewish reference from the Zohar speaks of pre-existence : "All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world." Such doctrines dovetail perfectly with the Talmudic idea of the world as a marshaling area, a way station, while that world above is the true dwelling. We have just left it temporarily to be tested here. "All spirits which are to enter into the body exit from the day of creation of the world until the earth shall pass away." It’s like one of the discovered logia of Jesus, “This life is a bridge. We cross over, but we do not make our home here.” (I had to quote this from memory so it might not be correct - incidentally, this is an islamic saying also).
The wonderful and powerful passage in the Zadokite Document from the Dead Sea Scrolls tells how God condemned the wicked in the preexistence by not counting them among those chosen. "From of old, from the days of eternity and before they were established, he knew them and abhorred their generations. With exactitude he set out their names, but those whom he hated he caused to stray." Typical of this common background and convergence of doctrines relating to pre-existence among Jews and early Christians is the prayer of Anna in the Pseudo-Philo. "Hast thou not, O Lord, examined the heart of all generations before thou formedst the world?"
In the Secrets of Enoch in the Slavonic Enoch , the Lord says to Enoch, "Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth." And so Enoch does this, saying : "I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS[/QUOTE]
Thank you indefinitely for this detailed answer with evidence to support the information.
THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF OUR SPIRITS WAS TAUGHT IN MANY CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH TEXTS
Clement of Rome, in his conversion to Christianity, relates his questions to the Apostle Peter regarding this very issue of inequality. In the Clementine Recognitions, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and plan "which He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Apostle Peter in Clementine Recognitions)
This concept of pre-existence is spread throughout many, many of the ancient texts.
The Gospel of Philip (equally old and equally important to Thomas) says: "The Lord said, 'Blessed is he who was before he came into being [i.e. into the body] for he who is and was shall be.'"
Another quote from the Gospel of Philip parallels the Cabalistic teaching: : "At the Council in Heaven every spirit appeared before God in the very same form they were later to take in the human body. God examined them one by one, and many hesitated to come here and to be exposed to contamination."
In the Second Book of Enoch (the Slavonic version), Enoch writes : "Write all the souls of men, however many of them are born, for all souls are prepared to eternity before the foundation of the world."
R. H. Charles, the premier expert in pseudographia and apocrypha in his great work, The Apocrypha and Pseudapigrapha of the Old Testament , volume 2, says, "The Platonic doctrine of preexistence of souls is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt." So in explaining where the christians and Jews GOT this doctrine, he feels it was “through Egypt, Christians and Jews, he says, both adopted this” Even though pre-existent spirits was an Egyptian doctrine, I believe the Jews and Christians possessed this doctrine completely independent of the Egyptians. The doctrine was accepted and further developed by the great Jewish Historian (and Christian contemporary ) Philo. Josephus indicates it was also an Essene doctrine.
You will find it in the Beresheit Rabbah and the Tanhuma , etc. The great Historian Meyer speaks of "The doctrine of preexistence as taught by the Essenes , by Philo , the Talmud and the Cabala ,". The Apocalypse of Baruch found in R. H. Charles says, "The multitude of those who should be born was numbered and for that number a place was prepared where the living might dwell."
Such a view is different than many modern christian theology and although most all theologies ask the question: What are we here for then? Such ancient Chrisianities answer the question differently: Some christianities feel that the spirits coming down here was a calamity. Some doctrines felt that we are here in prison. We are being punished. But unlike Origen and some Gnostic schools, the Cabala does not regard life as a fall or exile but as a means of education and a beneficial trial. To pre-creation christians, our time here may be seen as a time of education and probation.
Another Jewish reference from the Zohar speaks of pre-existence : "All men before they lived on earth were present in heaven in the identical form they possess in this life, and everything they learn on earth they knew already before they came to this world." Such doctrines dovetail perfectly with the Talmudic idea of the world as a marshaling area, a way station, while that world above is the true dwelling. We have just left it temporarily to be tested here. "All spirits which are to enter into the body exit from the day of creation of the world until the earth shall pass away." It’s like one of the discovered logia of Jesus, “This life is a bridge. We cross over, but we do not make our home here.” (I had to quote this from memory so it might not be correct - incidentally, this is an islamic saying also).
The wonderful and powerful passage in the Zadokite Document from the Dead Sea Scrolls tells how God condemned the wicked in the preexistence by not counting them among those chosen. "From of old, from the days of eternity and before they were established, he knew them and abhorred their generations. With exactitude he set out their names, but those whom he hated he caused to stray." Typical of this common background and convergence of doctrines relating to pre-existence among Jews and early Christians is the prayer of Anna in the Pseudo-Philo. "Hast thou not, O Lord, examined the heart of all generations before thou formedst the world?"
In the Secrets of Enoch in the Slavonic Enoch , the Lord says to Enoch, "Sit down and write the names of those who are not yet born and the places which are prepared for them forever; for all the spirits were prepared before the foundation of the earth." And so Enoch does this, saying : "I swear unto you, my children, that before man was made in the womb of his mother, he was prepared; and how each has sojourned in this age that a man might be tested in the balance while he was here."
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS[/QUOTE]
Thank you indefinitely for this detailed answer with evidence to support the information.
Hi @JM123
I noticed you were new to the forum. Welcome. You will also notice that much of the historical information you will get will be incorrect. And information is often subjective to views of the responders (myself included – I simply like early Christian history and do not know much about the various modern Christian movements)
I disagree that modern Christian movements have “rejected” the ancient Judeo-Christian doctrine of pre-creation existence of spirits. In think most modern Christians are simply unaware of the doctrine rather than having “rejected” it. Growing up as a Baptist, I did not “reject” the doctrine I simply was unaware that the doctrine existed at all.
If you visit religious historian sites, you will notice those dealing with early Judeo-Christian literature discuss pre-creation time periods a lot since one cannot read much early Jewish or Christian literature without encountering this doctrine. Pre-mortal existence of Spirits was one of several authentic early doctrines whose loss has caused endless headaches, confusion and arguments among philosophers and theologians that the Judeo-Christians of former days were not subject to.
Many of the greatest existential questions concern the pre-mortal period of time.
For example an understanding of what went on before the creation of the earth concerns such things as :
1) The original purpose and plan of God and conditions under which he decided to initiate his creation have to do with this time period. Modern Christian theories that have no contextual knowledge of such events will have less contextual understanding of such things.
2) The most profound considerations concerning the origin of evil relate to conditions Prior to creation of the earth. For example, philosophers and investigators of religion ask "Why did God Create such Evil" and suffering if he could have accomplished the same purpose without evil? (i.e. if he "omnipotent").
This is important since the critics of religion have legitimate curiosity regarding such issues and are unsatisfied with many modern theories regarding this subject. The critics of religion often have legitimate reason for their criticisms. The early Christian context of pre-creation existence of spirits creates a contextual framework to understand such questions.
3) The nature of the devil and his fall from “heaven” has to do with the Pre-mortal time period. The origin of evil and it’s manifestations by another powerful agent having free will (lucifer) produces profound questions for anyone trying to understand why God allows Lucifer such rein on earth.
Even the prophet Sedrach asked God “If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? ” (Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7) Abraham also, asked God “How then, since he [Lucifer] is now not before you, did you establish yourself with (him)? “ (The Apocalypse of Abraham 20:5-7). Agnostics have a right to have authentic answers to such questions as well. The best contextual answers are to be found inside that knowledge of pre-mortal/pre-earth creation conditions. Modern non-historian christians have relatively little concept as to the earliest traditions concerning why an angel (Lucifer) would become an enemy to God. They have little information concerning the "war in heaven" when Satan "fell as lightening".
4) In early Christianity, the nature of and issues underlying the “war in heaven” have to do with the pre-creation period. Virtually ALL of the facts surrounding this this controversy and the reasons underlying it are found in early Judao-christian texts that begin their considerations with the time period in which the controversy took place; the pre-creation/pre-mortal time period.
5) The role of the Fall of man in God’s plan has much to do with events PRIOR to Adam having been placed in the Garden. Modern christianities who have little understanding of pre-mortal issues often view the atonement of Jesus as a hastily prepared “plan B”, necessitated by a crafty Lucifer who scuttles God’s “plan A” for Adam in a Garden of Eden.
The ancient christians, having a more complete understanding that the fall of Adam WAS part of the pre-mortal/pre-creation plan did NOT feel that God was "duped" by Lucifer, but that all had proceeded according to the original plan of God as they understood it.
6) The underlying reasons why some individuals are born into apparently arbitrary and unjust life scenarios are more easily justified by the greater data provided by conditions during the pre-mortal existence. Arbitrariness, capriciousness and unjustness are consistent complaints that some individuals make about God since the world God created is not fair (if there are no other conditions which justify it).
For example, If God creates men ex-nihilo at an instant, and places some into conditions where they live happy lives and hear of Jesus and are ultimately “saved” and yet creates other men and places them into terrible and torturous conditions where they die before hearing of Jesus and ultimately suffer eternal punishment for not living laws they were never exposed to is seen as arbitrary and unjust. Without a consideration of events PRIOR to life, then some lives cannot make proper sense. It’s like coming into a movie that is more than half-over.
Knowledge of the pre-existence gives us much greater insight into controversies which have plagued non-pre-existent Christianities for over 1700 years. Many of these millennia-long debates are neatly answered, simply by a return to the early doctrines. This is part of the immense value of a re-adoption of early Christian Salvational doctrines.
The concept that knowledge of prior events change the context of this life, as well as how it is to be viewed, including our judgments of right; wrong and suffering. For example, Rappaport, II, 263-266 relates the training Moses received when considering this point.
One day, while Moses was out tending sheep, he was meditating about life and it’s meaning when he noticed a traveler come and stop at the well to refresh himself. Unnoticed, a purse of money dropped out of his garments and fell on the ground before he continued on his journey. After a short while another traveler appeared. He refreshed himself with the cool water and, while standing near the well, found the money bag on the ground. He picked it up, rejoiced about the stroke of luck and went happily on his way.
Yet another stranger came after a while who also drank of the water from the well and then proceeded to take a nap nearby. Meanwhile, the first traveler had noticed the loss of his purse and hurriedly returned to the area since he surmised that he could have only lost it while refreshing himself at the well.
When he saw the sleeping man, he awakened him and asked him whether he had found the money, to which the other replied, truthfully, that he had not. However, the first stranger evidently did not believe the others assurance and after some accusations and shouting, a fight between the two ensued.
It was at this point Moses came running from his place of meditation to quell the disturbance and calm the tempers because he had witnessed what had happened. But it was too late. The man who had lost the purse had already killed the innocent man when Moses arrived at the scene. The prophet related his observations to the man, who was quite shaken at his deed, and departed in great sorrow over the loss of his possessions and the knowledge of having killed for no cause.
Moses was also shaken by this experience and he wondered deeply about the justice and benevolence of a God who had permitted such an act to happen.
Lord of the Universe, spoke Moses, “can it be thy will to punish the innocent and let prosper the guilty? The man who hath stolen the money bag is enjoying wealth which is not his, whilst the innocent man hath been slain. The owner of the money, too, hath not only lost his property, but his loss hath been the cause of his becoming a murderer. I fail to understand the ways of providence and workings of divine justice. O Almighty, reveal unto me Thy hidden ways that I may understand.”
And so the Lord proceeded to tell Moses why it was just. The man who had lost the money had inherited it from his father who, in turn, had stolen it from the father of the man who had found it. Therefore that situation had now been corrected. The man who had been killed, had in years past killed the brother of the man who had killed him during the quarrel. Said the Lord to Moses:
Know then, O Moses, that I ordained it that the murderer should be put to death by the brother of the victim, whilst the son should find the money of which his father had once been robbed. My ways are inscrutable, and often the human mind wonders why the innocent suffer and the wicked prosper. Ginzberg, II, 302; Philo, Vita Mosis, 1:12)
The insight Moses needed was in the PAST he did not know. Similarly, If individuals were aware of events that took place before the creation of the earth and could relate this knowledge context to present conditions, they might not make the same kind of moral judgments about suffering and other issues in this life as they now do. The early Judeo-Christian-Islamic doctrines of pre-creation existence answer many of these existential questions.
Good luck in making your own models of what life is like and in using the concept that much was going on prior to this life in making this model
Clear
φυνετωω
I noticed you were new to the forum. Welcome. You will also notice that much of the historical information you will get will be incorrect. And information is often subjective to views of the responders (myself included – I simply like early Christian history and do not know much about the various modern Christian movements)
I disagree that modern Christian movements have “rejected” the ancient Judeo-Christian doctrine of pre-creation existence of spirits. In think most modern Christians are simply unaware of the doctrine rather than having “rejected” it. Growing up as a Baptist, I did not “reject” the doctrine I simply was unaware that the doctrine existed at all.
If you visit religious historian sites, you will notice those dealing with early Judeo-Christian literature discuss pre-creation time periods a lot since one cannot read much early Jewish or Christian literature without encountering this doctrine. Pre-mortal existence of Spirits was one of several authentic early doctrines whose loss has caused endless headaches, confusion and arguments among philosophers and theologians that the Judeo-Christians of former days were not subject to.
Many of the greatest existential questions concern the pre-mortal period of time.
For example an understanding of what went on before the creation of the earth concerns such things as :
1) The original purpose and plan of God and conditions under which he decided to initiate his creation have to do with this time period. Modern Christian theories that have no contextual knowledge of such events will have less contextual understanding of such things.
2) The most profound considerations concerning the origin of evil relate to conditions Prior to creation of the earth. For example, philosophers and investigators of religion ask "Why did God Create such Evil" and suffering if he could have accomplished the same purpose without evil? (i.e. if he "omnipotent").
This is important since the critics of religion have legitimate curiosity regarding such issues and are unsatisfied with many modern theories regarding this subject. The critics of religion often have legitimate reason for their criticisms. The early Christian context of pre-creation existence of spirits creates a contextual framework to understand such questions.
3) The nature of the devil and his fall from “heaven” has to do with the Pre-mortal time period. The origin of evil and it’s manifestations by another powerful agent having free will (lucifer) produces profound questions for anyone trying to understand why God allows Lucifer such rein on earth.
Even the prophet Sedrach asked God “If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? ” (Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7) Abraham also, asked God “How then, since he [Lucifer] is now not before you, did you establish yourself with (him)? “ (The Apocalypse of Abraham 20:5-7). Agnostics have a right to have authentic answers to such questions as well. The best contextual answers are to be found inside that knowledge of pre-mortal/pre-earth creation conditions. Modern non-historian christians have relatively little concept as to the earliest traditions concerning why an angel (Lucifer) would become an enemy to God. They have little information concerning the "war in heaven" when Satan "fell as lightening".
4) In early Christianity, the nature of and issues underlying the “war in heaven” have to do with the pre-creation period. Virtually ALL of the facts surrounding this this controversy and the reasons underlying it are found in early Judao-christian texts that begin their considerations with the time period in which the controversy took place; the pre-creation/pre-mortal time period.
5) The role of the Fall of man in God’s plan has much to do with events PRIOR to Adam having been placed in the Garden. Modern christianities who have little understanding of pre-mortal issues often view the atonement of Jesus as a hastily prepared “plan B”, necessitated by a crafty Lucifer who scuttles God’s “plan A” for Adam in a Garden of Eden.
The ancient christians, having a more complete understanding that the fall of Adam WAS part of the pre-mortal/pre-creation plan did NOT feel that God was "duped" by Lucifer, but that all had proceeded according to the original plan of God as they understood it.
6) The underlying reasons why some individuals are born into apparently arbitrary and unjust life scenarios are more easily justified by the greater data provided by conditions during the pre-mortal existence. Arbitrariness, capriciousness and unjustness are consistent complaints that some individuals make about God since the world God created is not fair (if there are no other conditions which justify it).
For example, If God creates men ex-nihilo at an instant, and places some into conditions where they live happy lives and hear of Jesus and are ultimately “saved” and yet creates other men and places them into terrible and torturous conditions where they die before hearing of Jesus and ultimately suffer eternal punishment for not living laws they were never exposed to is seen as arbitrary and unjust. Without a consideration of events PRIOR to life, then some lives cannot make proper sense. It’s like coming into a movie that is more than half-over.
Knowledge of the pre-existence gives us much greater insight into controversies which have plagued non-pre-existent Christianities for over 1700 years. Many of these millennia-long debates are neatly answered, simply by a return to the early doctrines. This is part of the immense value of a re-adoption of early Christian Salvational doctrines.
The concept that knowledge of prior events change the context of this life, as well as how it is to be viewed, including our judgments of right; wrong and suffering. For example, Rappaport, II, 263-266 relates the training Moses received when considering this point.
One day, while Moses was out tending sheep, he was meditating about life and it’s meaning when he noticed a traveler come and stop at the well to refresh himself. Unnoticed, a purse of money dropped out of his garments and fell on the ground before he continued on his journey. After a short while another traveler appeared. He refreshed himself with the cool water and, while standing near the well, found the money bag on the ground. He picked it up, rejoiced about the stroke of luck and went happily on his way.
Yet another stranger came after a while who also drank of the water from the well and then proceeded to take a nap nearby. Meanwhile, the first traveler had noticed the loss of his purse and hurriedly returned to the area since he surmised that he could have only lost it while refreshing himself at the well.
When he saw the sleeping man, he awakened him and asked him whether he had found the money, to which the other replied, truthfully, that he had not. However, the first stranger evidently did not believe the others assurance and after some accusations and shouting, a fight between the two ensued.
It was at this point Moses came running from his place of meditation to quell the disturbance and calm the tempers because he had witnessed what had happened. But it was too late. The man who had lost the purse had already killed the innocent man when Moses arrived at the scene. The prophet related his observations to the man, who was quite shaken at his deed, and departed in great sorrow over the loss of his possessions and the knowledge of having killed for no cause.
Moses was also shaken by this experience and he wondered deeply about the justice and benevolence of a God who had permitted such an act to happen.
Lord of the Universe, spoke Moses, “can it be thy will to punish the innocent and let prosper the guilty? The man who hath stolen the money bag is enjoying wealth which is not his, whilst the innocent man hath been slain. The owner of the money, too, hath not only lost his property, but his loss hath been the cause of his becoming a murderer. I fail to understand the ways of providence and workings of divine justice. O Almighty, reveal unto me Thy hidden ways that I may understand.”
And so the Lord proceeded to tell Moses why it was just. The man who had lost the money had inherited it from his father who, in turn, had stolen it from the father of the man who had found it. Therefore that situation had now been corrected. The man who had been killed, had in years past killed the brother of the man who had killed him during the quarrel. Said the Lord to Moses:
Know then, O Moses, that I ordained it that the murderer should be put to death by the brother of the victim, whilst the son should find the money of which his father had once been robbed. My ways are inscrutable, and often the human mind wonders why the innocent suffer and the wicked prosper. Ginzberg, II, 302; Philo, Vita Mosis, 1:12)
The insight Moses needed was in the PAST he did not know. Similarly, If individuals were aware of events that took place before the creation of the earth and could relate this knowledge context to present conditions, they might not make the same kind of moral judgments about suffering and other issues in this life as they now do. The early Judeo-Christian-Islamic doctrines of pre-creation existence answer many of these existential questions.
Good luck in making your own models of what life is like and in using the concept that much was going on prior to this life in making this model
Clear
φυνετωω
You ignored my other cite. And there are many many many more. Just look for them and you'll find them.