Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi @JM123
I noticed you were new to the forum. Welcome. You will also notice that much of the historical information you will get will be incorrect. And information is often subjective to views of the responders (myself included – I simply like early Christian history and do not know much about the various modern Christian movements)
I disagree that modern Christian movements have “rejected” the ancient Judeo-Christian doctrine of pre-creation existence of spirits. In think most modern Christians are simply unaware of the doctrine rather than having “rejected” it. Growing up as a Baptist, I did not “reject” the doctrine I simply was unaware that the doctrine existed at all.
If you visit religious historian sites, you will notice those dealing with early Judeo-Christian literature discuss pre-creation time periods a lot since one cannot read much early Jewish or Christian literature without encountering this doctrine. Pre-mortal existence of Spirits was one of several authentic early doctrines whose loss has caused endless headaches, confusion and arguments among philosophers and theologians that the Judeo-Christians of former days were not subject to.
Many of the greatest existential questions concern the pre-mortal period of time.
For example an understanding of what went on before the creation of the earth concerns such things as :
1) The original purpose and plan of God and conditions under which he decided to initiate his creation have to do with this time period. Modern Christian theories that have no contextual knowledge of such events will have less contextual understanding of such things.
2) The most profound considerations concerning the origin of evil relate to conditions Prior to creation of the earth. For example, philosophers and investigators of religion ask "Why did God Create such Evil" and suffering if he could have accomplished the same purpose without evil? (i.e. if he "omnipotent").
This is important since the critics of religion have legitimate curiosity regarding such issues and are unsatisfied with many modern theories regarding this subject. The critics of religion often have legitimate reason for their criticisms. The early Christian context of pre-creation existence of spirits creates a contextual framework to understand such questions.
3) The nature of the devil and his fall from “heaven” has to do with the Pre-mortal time period. The origin of evil and it’s manifestations by another powerful agent having free will (lucifer) produces profound questions for anyone trying to understand why God allows Lucifer such rein on earth.
Even the prophet Sedrach asked God “If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? ” (Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7) Abraham also, asked God “How then, since he [Lucifer] is now not before you, did you establish yourself with (him)? “ (The Apocalypse of Abraham 20:5-7). Agnostics have a right to have authentic answers to such questions as well. The best contextual answers are to be found inside that knowledge of pre-mortal/pre-earth creation conditions. Modern non-historian christians have relatively little concept as to the earliest traditions concerning why an angel (Lucifer) would become an enemy to God. They have little information concerning the "war in heaven" when Satan "fell as lightening".
4) In early Christianity, the nature of and issues underlying the “war in heaven” have to do with the pre-creation period. Virtually ALL of the facts surrounding this this controversy and the reasons underlying it are found in early Judao-christian texts that begin their considerations with the time period in which the controversy took place; the pre-creation/pre-mortal time period.
5) The role of the Fall of man in God’s plan has much to do with events PRIOR to Adam having been placed in the Garden. Modern christianities who have little understanding of pre-mortal issues often view the atonement of Jesus as a hastily prepared “plan B”, necessitated by a crafty Lucifer who scuttles God’s “plan A” for Adam in a Garden of Eden.
The ancient christians, having a more complete understanding that the fall of Adam WAS part of the pre-mortal/pre-creation plan did NOT feel that God was "duped" by Lucifer, but that all had proceeded according to the original plan of God as they understood it.
6) The underlying reasons why some individuals are born into apparently arbitrary and unjust life scenarios are more easily justified by the greater data provided by conditions during the pre-mortal existence. Arbitrariness, capriciousness and unjustness are consistent complaints that some individuals make about God since the world God created is not fair (if there are no other conditions which justify it).
For example, If God creates men ex-nihilo at an instant, and places some into conditions where they live happy lives and hear of Jesus and are ultimately “saved” and yet creates other men and places them into terrible and torturous conditions where they die before hearing of Jesus and ultimately suffer eternal punishment for not living laws they were never exposed to is seen as arbitrary and unjust. Without a consideration of events PRIOR to life, then some lives cannot make proper sense. It’s like coming into a movie that is more than half-over.
Knowledge of the pre-existence gives us much greater insight into controversies which have plagued non-pre-existent Christianities for over 1700 years. Many of these millennia-long debates are neatly answered, simply by a return to the early doctrines. This is part of the immense value of a re-adoption of early Christian Salvational doctrines.
The concept that knowledge of prior events change the context of this life, as well as how it is to be viewed, including our judgments of right; wrong and suffering. For example, Rappaport, II, 263-266 relates the training Moses received when considering this point.
One day, while Moses was out tending sheep, he was meditating about life and it’s meaning when he noticed a traveler come and stop at the well to refresh himself. Unnoticed, a purse of money dropped out of his garments and fell on the ground before he continued on his journey. After a short while another traveler appeared. He refreshed himself with the cool water and, while standing near the well, found the money bag on the ground. He picked it up, rejoiced about the stroke of luck and went happily on his way.
Yet another stranger came after a while who also drank of the water from the well and then proceeded to take a nap nearby. Meanwhile, the first traveler had noticed the loss of his purse and hurriedly returned to the area since he surmised that he could have only lost it while refreshing himself at the well.
When he saw the sleeping man, he awakened him and asked him whether he had found the money, to which the other replied, truthfully, that he had not. However, the first stranger evidently did not believe the others assurance and after some accusations and shouting, a fight between the two ensued.
It was at this point Moses came running from his place of meditation to quell the disturbance and calm the tempers because he had witnessed what had happened. But it was too late. The man who had lost the purse had already killed the innocent man when Moses arrived at the scene. The prophet related his observations to the man, who was quite shaken at his deed, and departed in great sorrow over the loss of his possessions and the knowledge of having killed for no cause.
Moses was also shaken by this experience and he wondered deeply about the justice and benevolence of a God who had permitted such an act to happen.
Lord of the Universe, spoke Moses, “can it be thy will to punish the innocent and let prosper the guilty? The man who hath stolen the money bag is enjoying wealth which is not his, whilst the innocent man hath been slain. The owner of the money, too, hath not only lost his property, but his loss hath been the cause of his becoming a murderer. I fail to understand the ways of providence and workings of divine justice. O Almighty, reveal unto me Thy hidden ways that I may understand.”
And so the Lord proceeded to tell Moses why it was just. The man who had lost the money had inherited it from his father who, in turn, had stolen it from the father of the man who had found it. Therefore that situation had now been corrected. The man who had been killed, had in years past killed the brother of the man who had killed him during the quarrel. Said the Lord to Moses:
Know then, O Moses, that I ordained it that the murderer should be put to death by the brother of the victim, whilst the son should find the money of which his father had once been robbed. My ways are inscrutable, and often the human mind wonders why the innocent suffer and the wicked prosper. Ginzberg, II, 302; Philo, Vita Mosis, 1:12)
The insight Moses needed was in the PAST he did not know. Similarly, If individuals were aware of events that took place before the creation of the earth and could relate this knowledge context to present conditions, they might not make the same kind of moral judgments about suffering and other issues in this life as they now do. The early Judeo-Christian-Islamic doctrines of pre-creation existence answer many of these existential questions.
Good luck in making your own models of what life is like and in using the concept that much was going on prior to this life in making this model
Clear
φυνετωω
A short reply to part of your essay:
In Islamic thought, much of what you have written about is attributed to instruction from God. As I think you said, none of us have good proof to prove any of what has been said, yet many people have been murdered over these issues. The best I can do is to believe that evil exists, and that God will protect me from much of it that is not good for instruction.
I used a translator on your signature and it says you are Greek or Rumanian? I only mention this as an aid to help me understand your point of view on these issues.
