My point was that it's not a necessary part of the use of the term.
Shiny is a metaphor: shiny things catch your eye and hold your attention. For instance, truth is shiny.
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we have no free will - prove me wrong!
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Shiny is a metaphor: shiny things catch your eye and hold your attention. For instance, truth is shiny.
Can you explain those items?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Of course not, but it's certainly relevant in the free will DEBATE, which is the purpose of the forum; debate. If you're not going to entertain the "why" and "how" of free will what is their to debate?
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I didn't hint at not entertaining them.
Skwim
Veteran Member
No you didn't hint. You came right out and said, "I don't think the "why" of choosing A rather than B is significant in the free will debate" in post 183.
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Right, and that's different than saying that I wouldn't entertain it.
JChnsc19
Member
Sure. They are disorders of the brain that effect it. There are some medications these people can take but there is no cure for them. Alzheimers, mentally handicapped, or dementia would also be the same example wise. I'm a RN. I took care of a pt (patient) with Alzheimers who would frequently try to punch his wife if the face when she came to visit. They had been married 60 years.
But he saw her as an intruder when she came to visit, despite the fact that she visited daily. So him actually punching his wife, whom he thought was an intruder coming to attack him, wasn't within his control. He thought he was acting in self defense.
I have been hit, punched, kicked, bit by pts with brain disorders. I'm trying to change their depends- they think I'm trying to rob or kidnap them. They CANNOT be held responsible for hitting me.
Charles Whitman was the "clock tower sniper". He shot several people and his wife. On autopsy they found him to have a large tumor in his frontal lobe. That's the area that controls reasoning, judgement, and behavior.
aurisadhibeo
Member
Lets all choose to be supermodels. We can pose in front of cameras in various outfits and make millions of dollars. Its just a choice we make. Let's also choose to have trust funds so we do not have to work and why not go for a society of world peace? We have free will... We can choose. You are poor because you chose to be born that way and you are rich because you chose that. This argument has edges that are not at all being addressed with why you had chocolate ice cream for breakfast.
The denial of free will (defined as the ability to choose between available options) is self-stultifying, no less than the assertion of epiphenomenalism is self-stultifying. See:Been doing some thinking...
“Everything we do and everything that happens has a cause” is true
Therefore we can say that all things that happen are determined/caused by things that have happened in the past
Therefore there is no free will as it is impossible to carry out any action that does not have a cause – all actions have and must have a cause
Free will would require being able to act without a cause, which I think would be impossible. No matter how complex the human mind is, its workings are still governed by cause and effect, by things both external and internal to it
Free will is therefore an illusion, as things that come about by “free will” are truly caused by the past
I still believe we have wills, just not free wills!
I like the idea of having free will so please, prove me wrong
Like Epiphenomenalism, Denial of Free Will is Self-Stultifying
Thus, if you are in fact an entity that lacks free will, then you are unable to choose to assert or to believe a true answer to the question of whether free will exists rather than a false answer. If you are an entity that lacks free will, then your answer to the question of whether free will exists is no more reliable than the answer that an Eight Ball toy would give. Indeed, we who do have free will would likely wonder why and how an Eight Ball toy would even seek to answer the question of whether free will exists.
Thus, the assertion and belief that free will does not exist is, in fact, an inherently illogical position. All of the posters on this thread who have asserted that free will does not exist, if they themselves lack free will, are asserting an unjustifiable proposition. But I suspect that they assert such a proposition merely out of ignorance, not due to lack of free will.
"Free will" does not mean uncaused. Moreover, no one with free will claims that all choices and decisions are uninfluenced by various factors.
Skwim
Veteran Member
"Unable to believe a true answer to the question of whether free will exists rather than a false answer"?
Why would that be? We believe whatever we're caused to believe.
Why? Why does reliability rest on the ability to freely choose? You do recognize, do you not, that a lot of the "choices" people make are quite unreliable.
Probably because you people fail to understand that where there is no free will there is no choice.
"Thus"! You make a few off the wall comments and then come up with a "Thus"? Give me a break here. Your logic needs major repair.
Then you have not read them or understood them, or both.
If only your suspicions were well founded perhaps they'd be worth considering.
Good! Then in what sense are they free?
Perhaps you would be less confused if you quoted what I actually said: "Thus, if you are in fact an entity that lacks free will, then you are unable to choose to assert or to believe a true answer to the question of whether free will exists rather than a false answer.if you quoted what I actually said. "
The Eight Ball toy gives a random "yes" or "no" answer to questions. Let's ask one if you are as intelligent as a frog. Will the answer be reliable?
Produce an Eight Ball that has sought to answer the question of whether free will exists.
If you are able to show that anything I have said is illogical, go right ahead.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Obviously I took your "choose" as only applying to "assert." But what is the significance that lies behind your observation that "you are unable to choose . . . to believe a true answer to the question of whether free will exists rather than a false answer"? Our inability to choose applies to everything we do; What we do, think, and believe. Just because I don't choose to do something doesn't mean I can't do it.
Actually, the answer is not random at all, It depends on all the physical factors that were in place in and around the ball and then set in motion. So in no sense of the word is there any "ability to freely choose." AND, no one is suggesting the deterministic world isn't full of errors. Just look at who's in charge of the United States for crying out loud.
Sorry, but I have far better things to do than tutor you in logic.
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My observation that an entity that lacks free will can neither choose to state nor choose to believe a true rather than a false answer to the question of whether free will exists was simply to emphasize the confused mental states of those automatons that pipe up with their ignorant garbage on the question of the existence of free will.
Prove it.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Eddie, you want us to prove you wrong, but since you are the one making the claim, the rules of debate are that the onus is on YOU to prove YOUR assertion.Been doing some thinking...
“Everything we do and everything that happens has a cause” is true
Therefore we can say that all things that happen are determined/caused by things that have happened in the past
Therefore there is no free will as it is impossible to carry out any action that does not have a cause – all actions have and must have a cause
Free will would require being able to act without a cause, which I think would be impossible. No matter how complex the human mind is, its workings are still governed by cause and effect, by things both external and internal to it
Free will is therefore an illusion, as things that come about by “free will” are truly caused by the past
I still believe we have wills, just not free wills!
I like the idea of having free will so please, prove me wrong
Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
Who can we blame for this mental slavery?!Been doing some thinking...
“Everything we do and everything that happens has a cause” is true
Therefore we can say that all things that happen are determined/caused by things that have happened in the past
Therefore there is no free will as it is impossible to carry out any action that does not have a cause – all actions have and must have a cause
Free will would require being able to act without a cause, which I think would be impossible. No matter how complex the human mind is, its workings are still governed by cause and effect, by things both external and internal to it
Free will is therefore an illusion, as things that come about by “free will” are truly caused by the past
I still believe we have wills, just not free wills!
I like the idea of having free will so please, prove me wrong
Workman
UNIQUE
When one stops asking questions,
When one stops counting,
When one stops in reacting,
When one stops in doings,
When one stops in seeing,
When one stops in searching,
When one stops in answering,
When one stops in choosing,
when one stops in being.
Is free will!
If one does not understand in stopping, it is because one only knows in the ‘LIVING’.
And for the living: The trick is when one lives it long enough, one begins to enjoy it!
Therefore choosing not to understand in its stopping!
Being trapped in NOT free
When one stops counting,
When one stops in reacting,
When one stops in doings,
When one stops in seeing,
When one stops in searching,
When one stops in answering,
When one stops in choosing,
when one stops in being.
Is free will!
If one does not understand in stopping, it is because one only knows in the ‘LIVING’.
And for the living: The trick is when one lives it long enough, one begins to enjoy it!
Therefore choosing not to understand in its stopping!
Being trapped in NOT free
By saying "prove me wrong" I didn't mean to say that "I'm right so cannot be proved wrong", it wasn't a challenge -
It was a request as I want to have free-will
Thanks to this thread I now believe I do