WE (I) BELIEVE IN THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY.

[metis]

Huh? I don't get what you mean. Are you saying the Gospel writers didn't believe Jesus was literally God?

Since the writers differentiate between him and God, probably not. For one example, dealing with the "end times", Jesus says that he didn't know when that would be as "only the Father knows for sure".

Theologian Bark Ehrman makes a good point, imo, when he says that it's likely that the early Christians believed that Jesus was linked with God in some way but that there doesn't appear to be any consensus as to exactly how that is. Even Jesus' question to Peter on "whom do you say I am" seemingly indicates that there's some controversy, and Jesus' response does not say that he actually is God. Plus, there's a vast difference between being the "son of God" versus actually being "God".

 

[Iymus]

This proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false.

it certainly does help to substantiate. This is what I can add.

Us is a pronoun used when a speaker is referring to oneself and others.

I is a pronoun used when speaking only about oneself.

Notice in Gen 1:26 Moses directly quoted the Most High who said "Let Us" ; But notice in Gen 1:29 Moses directly quoted the Most High again who said "I" and not "We". We would have been the correct term if God is "Us/They"

What I am getting at is Creation is not the will or authority of the Holy Spirit or only begotten Son the Most High himself which negates anything outside of Deu 6:4 / Eph 4:6 .

Matthew 7:21

Joh 7:17-18

Anyone that says contrary has either been deceived, of, or listening to 2Co 11:13-14.

If they say otherwise ask them to show you the correct translation of Gen 1:29 that is consistent and not contradictory with Gen 1:26 concerning their beliefs.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Since the writers differentiate between him and God, probably not. For one example, dealing with the "end times", Jesus says that he didn't know when that would be as "only the Father knows for sure".

Theologian Bark Ehrman makes a good point, imo, when he says that it's likely that the early Christians believed that Jesus was linked with God in some way but that there doesn't appear to be any consensus as to exactly how that is. Even Jesus' question to Peter on "whom do you say I am" seemingly indicates that there's some controversy, and Jesus' response does not say that he actually is God. Plus, there's a vast difference between being the "son of God" versus actually being "God".

Thomas called Jesus God in John 20:28.

 

[Trailblazer]

We Believe in the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT - But We Reject THE MAINSTREAM 3 in 1 TRINITY TEACHING - AN EXPLANATION

I wanted to set something straight on this matter, due to a lot of confusion and twisting the facts regarding our belief about God. Trinitarians accuse us of denying the Holy Spirit, and believing that Christ was created, which is completely false. I have also had people asking me how I can believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet reject the Trinity, when "Father, Son and Holy Spirit IS the Trinity". So I wanted to lay out the clear Bible truth of why we reject and STRONGLY REJECT the mainstream Trinity teaching, while at the same time fully believing in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There are two mainstream thoughts regarding trinitarianism. One says that there are 3 divine beings united as 'one god' the other says there is only 1 being, with 3 'persons' or 'personalities' that is 'one god' consists of, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the SAME BEING. We reject BOTH of these teachings.

SO WHAT DO WE BELIEVE?

Let me share with you what we believe and then I will share with you WHY we reject those two beliefs regarding the Trinity above. While we fully believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, instead of using man's definitions, we turn to the Word of God for understanding of this very important subject. Afterall, the God we worship is THE most important part of our faith. So let me share with you, from the Bible, what we believe regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

WHO IS THE FATHER? -

According to the Bible, God the Father is that 'one God' whom Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets and apostles worshiped. He is the source of all life, the sovereign of the universe. Let us look at what the Bible says:

John 4:21-24 John 20:17 John 17:1-3

According to Jesus own words, who is the Father? Is He merely a 'third part' of the Trinity god? No! Jesus said Himself that His Father is the 'ONLY ONE GOD'. Jesus said the Father is not only our God, but HIS GOD also. How can this be if the 3 in 1 Trinity is true? For the Trinity states that all three are co-equal in EVERY way. But the Father is even quoted Himself in Hebrews 1:9 as saying He is the God of Jesus. So we have two witnesses to this fact. How can this be? Let us see what the apostle Paul says:

1Corinthians 8:5-6

Do you see? Paul confirmed what Jesus said, in that the Father is the 'one God'. But Paul also states why; it is because the Father is the SOURCE OF ALL LIFE, including the life of His own Son Jesus Christ, which we will explain next in 'WHO IS THE SON?'. God the Father is the very source of all life, and Jesus is the BY WHOM all life is created. This makes the Father the 'only true God'. He is the 'one God' the Bible speaks of, look:

1Timothy 2:4-5

Trinitarians believe that the 'one God' is the 3 in 1 Trinity god. And yet this is impossible according to the scriptures, because as the apostle Paul said, 'there us on God ...AND ... one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.' So if Jesus is the mediator between the ONE GOD and men, then how can the one God be the Trinity?That would make FOUR! Do you see the problem? But when you see the TRUTH as we have shown above, that the Father is that, 'one God', then it makes complete sense! Jesus is the one mediator between THE FATHER and mankind.

Acts 3:13

So who is the Father? He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the 'only true God' - the source of all life and sovereign of the universe. He is our Father and God.

WHO IS THE SON? -

According to the Bible, the Son is Jesus Christ, the literal begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Let us take a look:

Romans 8:3 John 3:16-17

Just take a step back and think about these two vverses.For God the Father to SEND His own Son to save us, what does He need to have in the first place to send? A Son right? Both Paul and John tell us that Jesus is God's own Son. Now if Jesus isn't the LITERAL Son of God the Father, and they are just 'role playing', then the above two verses, and many more Bible verses are NOT truth! And if they are not truth, then we may aswell throw away the whole Bible! Just take that in for a moment.

Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5

Only two times did God the Father speak in the New Testament that people actually heard and understood. And what did God the Father used both those occasions to confirm? That Jesus Christ is His beloved Son! Was God trying to get an important message across do you think?

Galatians 4:4 Mark 12:6

The Bible even tells us that Jesus was begotten of the Father way back in eternity past before anything was created. And no, this does NOT mean that Jesus Himself was created. This is a blatant lie aimed at us by Trinitarians. The Father did not take some material and create Jesus like He did with us and the rest of creation. Jesus was begotten [born] of the Father's own divine being - taken from the very bosom of the Father:

Proverbs 8:23-25 Proverbs 30:4 Micah 5:2 Hebrews 1:5-6

These verses clearly tell us of Jesus is begotten (brought forth) of the Father in eternity past. How? We do not know because God has not told us. This is what FAITH is all about - taking God at His Word - "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON". The Bible tells us that Jesus was 'brought forth' from the Father before creation, so we must believe it by faith. Now some people will say, 'Oh, Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom not Jesus.'

1Corinthians 1:24 Luke 11:49 Matthew 23:1,34 1Corinthians 1:30

So the Son is Jesus Christ, the LITERAL begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Jesus Christ is a distinct personal being, apart from the Father and yet 'one' with the Father in Spirit, mind, action and purpose. Jesus is truly the SON OF GOD.

WHO/WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT? -

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus Christ. Let us take a look:

Luke 12:11-12 Matthew 10:19-20

Can you see what the Word of God is telling us here regarding the Holy Spirit? Luke and Matthew tell us that the Holy Spirit that speaks in us is the Spirit of God the Father. Now when you look at the word 'Spirit' in both the Hebrew and Greek, it means 'breath, mind, life.' So if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, then it means the Holy Spirit is the very divine life and mind of God the Father. Look at the two following verses:

Isaiah 40:13 Romans 11:34

Do you see how Paul understood Isaiah 40:13? He knew the Spirit of the Lord is the MIND of God. It is His very life, power and character that He gives to us. But how does the Spirit of the Father come to us? THROUGH Jesus Christ His Son. Look:

Revelation 5:1,6,7 Acts 2:32-33

Peter, speaking to the crowd on the day of Pentecost, explains what has just happened, and what does he say? That Jesus had received the Holy Spirit FROM the Father, and Jesus HIMSELF gives that Spirit - that life and power of the Father - to the disciples. Do you see?
John 20:19-22 Titus 3:4-6

Do you see? The Holy Spirit, which is the life, mind and power of God the Father comes to us through His beloved Son Jesus Christ. It is that 'one Spirit' which they both share, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23 that both He and the Father would dwell in us.

So the Holy Spirit is the divine life of the Father which comes to us through Jesus our Lord. The Holy spirit is not a separate divine being from the Father. We do not know the nature of the Spirit, but we know from the Bible that it is NOT a separate being who sits on the throne of heaven like the Father and His Son, as Revelation tells us that only TWO beings - God and the Lamb sit on the throne for all eternity (Revelation 22:1)

WHY WE REJECT THE TRINITY

As you can see, the Bible clearly teaches that there is 'one God' the Father - A personal divine being. There is also the Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord - another personal divine being - the divine Son of God, begotten of the Father, as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. And the Holy Spirit is the divine life, mind and power of God the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus who is the 'one mediator' between God and man (1Timothy 2:5). But what does the trinity doctrine teach? Well, we saw at the beginning that there are two beliefs regarding the trinity. One is that God is one being consisting of '3 persons' in that one divine being. And the other teaching says that God consists of 3 beings, all co-equal and co-eternal.

Now there are many problems with BOTH of these teachings. The first problem is that the Bible NEVER says 'God is 3 in 1', or that 'God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.' The Bible ONLY ever says that the 'only true God is the Father '(John 17:3 1Corinthians 8:6). Yes, John 1 says that Jesus is God (divine). But that is because He is the SON OF God which makes Jesus 'God' (divine) like His Father. I am human and I have a son, which makes my son human also. But my son is NOT me and I have authority over my son, just as the Father has authority over His Son Jesus.
John 14:28 1Corinthians 15:27-28

Do you see? Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater than He. Does that mean Jesus is some 'lesser god'? No. Jesus is as divine as the Father. But the Father has authority over His Son, being the first, just as Adam had authority over Eve, being the first. And when all things are done, Jesus will be subject unto the Father, as 1Corinthians 15 confirms above. This proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false.

I like your beliefs and believe everything you posted, even though technically speaking, I am am not a Christian.
Of course, the Bible supports your beliefs, not the Trinitarian beliefs. Jesus never claimed to be God.

 

[LightofTruth]

One aspect of the Trinitarian approach is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the essence of God the Father but not God the Father.

For a brief explanation of essence, check here: Definition of ESSENCE For a more thorough explanation, check here: Essence - Wikipedia

Briefly, the NT was written in Koine Greek for the Church in the diaspora especially, thus the concept of essence, which was especially enunciated by Aristotle and Plato, was used because it was understood by scholars what that meant within that cultural milieu. Jesus was not God in a literalistic sense, but was believed to be of God.

Within Catholicism, we often refer to it as "the Mystery of the Trinity", thus not something we can completely wrap our heads around.

According to Scripture, God the Father is the God of Jesus.
The one true God in scripture is both the God and Father of Jesus.

Nowhere does the Scripture teach that Jesus has two minds and two wills that can oppose each other as Trinitarians claim.
As if God could have multiple personality disorder.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Show me in the Bible where that I can read that the Holy Spirit has said a word to God and Jesus.

It's very difficult to take you or your claim that your little essay seriously--or any part of your essay that you say "proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false"--when you challenge me to show you something in the Bible while the community that you say you are a member of teaches:

• Trinity | Adventist.org
  • There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)
  • God the Father is the source of all love and life. He sent His Son to save us from our sin and ourselves, and to show us what He is like.
    God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also those of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Deut. 4:35; Ps. 110:1, 4; John 3:16; 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:28; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 John 4:8; Rev. 4:11.)
  • Jesus became human to save us. Through Him—our helper, advocate and redeemer—we can begin again. He is preparing heaven for us and will return to take us there.
    God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly human, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (Isa. 53:4-6; Dan. 9:25-27; Luke 1:35; John 1:1-3, 14; 5:22; 10:30; 14:1–3, 9, 13; Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; 2 Cor. 3:18; 5:17-19; Phil. 2:5–11; Col. 1:15-19; Heb. 2:9-18; 8:1, 2.)
  • The Holy Spirit inspires us, empowers us and guides our understanding. The Spirit touches our hearts and transforms us, renewing the image of God in which we were created.
    God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He is as much a person as are the Father and the Son. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; 2 Sam. 23:2; Ps. 51:11; Isa. 61:1; Luke 1:35; 4:18; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-13; Acts 1:8; 5:3; 10:38; Rom. 5:5; 1 Cor. 12:7-11; 2 Cor. 3:18; 2 Peter 1:21.)

One God, Three Persons: One "What", Three "Whos". There are three Persons in one God. The Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Spirit is God. That sure looks like standard, mainstream Trinitarianism to me. I don't understand your objection to beliefs now held and taught by the denomination that you say you are a member of.

 

[blü 2]

We Believe in the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT - But We Reject THE MAINSTREAM 3 in 1 TRINITY TEACHING - AN EXPLANATION

I wanted to set something straight on this matter, due to a lot of confusion and twisting the facts regarding our belief about God. Trinitarians accuse us of denying the Holy Spirit, and believing that Christ was created, which is completely false. I have also had people asking me how I can believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet reject the Trinity, when "Father, Son and Holy Spirit IS the Trinity". So I wanted to lay out the clear Bible truth of why we reject and STRONGLY REJECT the mainstream Trinity teaching, while at the same time fully believing in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There are two mainstream thoughts regarding trinitarianism. One says that there are 3 divine beings united as 'one god' the other says there is only 1 being, with 3 'persons' or 'personalities' that is 'one god' consists of, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the SAME BEING. We reject BOTH of these teachings.

SO WHAT DO WE BELIEVE?

Let me share with you what we believe and then I will share with you WHY we reject those two beliefs regarding the Trinity above. While we fully believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, instead of using man's definitions, we turn to the Word of God for understanding of this very important subject. Afterall, the God we worship is THE most important part of our faith. So let me share with you, from the Bible, what we believe regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

WHO IS THE FATHER? -

According to the Bible, God the Father is that 'one God' whom Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets and apostles worshiped. He is the source of all life, the sovereign of the universe. Let us look at what the Bible says:

John 4:21-24 John 20:17 John 17:1-3

According to Jesus own words, who is the Father? Is He merely a 'third part' of the Trinity god? No! Jesus said Himself that His Father is the 'ONLY ONE GOD'. Jesus said the Father is not only our God, but HIS GOD also. How can this be if the 3 in 1 Trinity is true? For the Trinity states that all three are co-equal in EVERY way. But the Father is even quoted Himself in Hebrews 1:9 as saying He is the God of Jesus. So we have two witnesses to this fact. How can this be? Let us see what the apostle Paul says:

1Corinthians 8:5-6

Do you see? Paul confirmed what Jesus said, in that the Father is the 'one God'. But Paul also states why; it is because the Father is the SOURCE OF ALL LIFE, including the life of His own Son Jesus Christ, which we will explain next in 'WHO IS THE SON?'. God the Father is the very source of all life, and Jesus is the BY WHOM all life is created. This makes the Father the 'only true God'. He is the 'one God' the Bible speaks of, look:

1Timothy 2:4-5

Trinitarians believe that the 'one God' is the 3 in 1 Trinity god. And yet this is impossible according to the scriptures, because as the apostle Paul said, 'there us on God ...AND ... one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.' So if Jesus is the mediator between the ONE GOD and men, then how can the one God be the Trinity?That would make FOUR! Do you see the problem? But when you see the TRUTH as we have shown above, that the Father is that, 'one God', then it makes complete sense! Jesus is the one mediator between THE FATHER and mankind.

Acts 3:13

So who is the Father? He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the 'only true God' - the source of all life and sovereign of the universe. He is our Father and God.

WHO IS THE SON? -

According to the Bible, the Son is Jesus Christ, the literal begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Let us take a look:

Romans 8:3 John 3:16-17

Just take a step back and think about these two vverses.For God the Father to SEND His own Son to save us, what does He need to have in the first place to send? A Son right? Both Paul and John tell us that Jesus is God's own Son. Now if Jesus isn't the LITERAL Son of God the Father, and they are just 'role playing', then the above two verses, and many more Bible verses are NOT truth! And if they are not truth, then we may aswell throw away the whole Bible! Just take that in for a moment.

Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5

Only two times did God the Father speak in the New Testament that people actually heard and understood. And what did God the Father used both those occasions to confirm? That Jesus Christ is His beloved Son! Was God trying to get an important message across do you think?

Galatians 4:4 Mark 12:6

The Bible even tells us that Jesus was begotten of the Father way back in eternity past before anything was created. And no, this does NOT mean that Jesus Himself was created. This is a blatant lie aimed at us by Trinitarians. The Father did not take some material and create Jesus like He did with us and the rest of creation. Jesus was begotten [born] of the Father's own divine being - taken from the very bosom of the Father:

Proverbs 8:23-25 Proverbs 30:4 Micah 5:2 Hebrews 1:5-6

These verses clearly tell us of Jesus is begotten (brought forth) of the Father in eternity past. How? We do not know because God has not told us. This is what FAITH is all about - taking God at His Word - "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON". The Bible tells us that Jesus was 'brought forth' from the Father before creation, so we must believe it by faith. Now some people will say, 'Oh, Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom not Jesus.'

1Corinthians 1:24 Luke 11:49 Matthew 23:1,34 1Corinthians 1:30

So the Son is Jesus Christ, the LITERAL begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Jesus Christ is a distinct personal being, apart from the Father and yet 'one' with the Father in Spirit, mind, action and purpose. Jesus is truly the SON OF GOD.

WHO/WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT? -

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus Christ. Let us take a look:

Luke 12:11-12 Matthew 10:19-20

Can you see what the Word of God is telling us here regarding the Holy Spirit? Luke and Matthew tell us that the Holy Spirit that speaks in us is the Spirit of God the Father. Now when you look at the word 'Spirit' in both the Hebrew and Greek, it means 'breath, mind, life.' So if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, then it means the Holy Spirit is the very divine life and mind of God the Father. Look at the two following verses:

Isaiah 40:13 Romans 11:34

Do you see how Paul understood Isaiah 40:13? He knew the Spirit of the Lord is the MIND of God. It is His very life, power and character that He gives to us. But how does the Spirit of the Father come to us? THROUGH Jesus Christ His Son. Look:

Revelation 5:1,6,7 Acts 2:32-33

Peter, speaking to the crowd on the day of Pentecost, explains what has just happened, and what does he say? That Jesus had received the Holy Spirit FROM the Father, and Jesus HIMSELF gives that Spirit - that life and power of the Father - to the disciples. Do you see?
John 20:19-22 Titus 3:4-6

Do you see? The Holy Spirit, which is the life, mind and power of God the Father comes to us through His beloved Son Jesus Christ. It is that 'one Spirit' which they both share, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23 that both He and the Father would dwell in us.

So the Holy Spirit is the divine life of the Father which comes to us through Jesus our Lord. The Holy spirit is not a separate divine being from the Father. We do not know the nature of the Spirit, but we know from the Bible that it is NOT a separate being who sits on the throne of heaven like the Father and His Son, as Revelation tells us that only TWO beings - God and the Lamb sit on the throne for all eternity (Revelation 22:1)

WHY WE REJECT THE TRINITY

As you can see, the Bible clearly teaches that there is 'one God' the Father - A personal divine being. There is also the Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord - another personal divine being - the divine Son of God, begotten of the Father, as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. And the Holy Spirit is the divine life, mind and power of God the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus who is the 'one mediator' between God and man (1Timothy 2:5). But what does the trinity doctrine teach? Well, we saw at the beginning that there are two beliefs regarding the trinity. One is that God is one being consisting of '3 persons' in that one divine being. And the other teaching says that God consists of 3 beings, all co-equal and co-eternal.

Now there are many problems with BOTH of these teachings. The first problem is that the Bible NEVER says 'God is 3 in 1', or that 'God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.' The Bible ONLY ever says that the 'only true God is the Father '(John 17:3 1Corinthians 8:6). Yes, John 1 says that Jesus is God (divine). But that is because He is the SON OF God which makes Jesus 'God' (divine) like His Father. I am human and I have a son, which makes my son human also. But my son is NOT me and I have authority over my son, just as the Father has authority over His Son Jesus.
John 14:28 1Corinthians 15:27-28

Do you see? Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater than He. Does that mean Jesus is some 'lesser god'? No. Jesus is as divine as the Father. But the Father has authority over His Son, being the first, just as Adam had authority over Eve, being the first. And when all things are done, Jesus will be subject unto the Father, as 1Corinthians 15 confirms above. This proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false.

Since its own theologians acknowledge that the Trinity doctrine is incoherent ─ a "mystery in the strict sense" ─ I have no difficulty with anyone who doesn't accept it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you see? Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater than He. Does that mean Jesus is some 'lesser god'? No. Jesus is as divine as the Father. But the Father has authority over His Son, being the first, just as Adam had authority over Eve, being the first. And when all things are done, Jesus will be subject unto the Father, as 1Corinthians 15 confirms above. This proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false.

I like the foundations of the Seven day Adventist Church and William Millers calculation of 1844.

Spot on that was.

Regards Tony

 

[Pipiripi]

Seventh-day Adventist Church Pioneers - Wikipedia

Not Wikipedia, The FEW in the Seventh day Adventist. Those that are only follow the Bible and the pioneers.

 

[Pipiripi]

I can't see the connection between these two statements.

I will finished it for you my friend.

 

[Terry Sampson]

So it is "I"?

Apparently, I was wrong. The OP's author is among the crème de la crème minority.

 

[Pipiripi]

Apparently, I was wrong. The OP's author is among the crème de la crème minority.

Is the I the most bigger problem for salvation? Jesus says I am. So that I is Jesus Christ.

 

[firedragon]

We Believe in the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT - But We Reject THE MAINSTREAM 3 in 1 TRINITY TEACHING - AN EXPLANATION

I wanted to set something straight on this matter, due to a lot of confusion and twisting the facts regarding our belief about God. Trinitarians accuse us of denying the Holy Spirit, and believing that Christ was created, which is completely false. I have also had people asking me how I can believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet reject the Trinity, when "Father, Son and Holy Spirit IS the Trinity". So I wanted to lay out the clear Bible truth of why we reject and STRONGLY REJECT the mainstream Trinity teaching, while at the same time fully believing in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There are two mainstream thoughts regarding trinitarianism. One says that there are 3 divine beings united as 'one god' the other says there is only 1 being, with 3 'persons' or 'personalities' that is 'one god' consists of, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the SAME BEING. We reject BOTH of these teachings.

SO WHAT DO WE BELIEVE?

Let me share with you what we believe and then I will share with you WHY we reject those two beliefs regarding the Trinity above. While we fully believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, instead of using man's definitions, we turn to the Word of God for understanding of this very important subject. Afterall, the God we worship is THE most important part of our faith. So let me share with you, from the Bible, what we believe regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

WHO IS THE FATHER? -

According to the Bible, God the Father is that 'one God' whom Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets and apostles worshiped. He is the source of all life, the sovereign of the universe. Let us look at what the Bible says:

John 4:21-24 John 20:17 John 17:1-3

According to Jesus own words, who is the Father? Is He merely a 'third part' of the Trinity god? No! Jesus said Himself that His Father is the 'ONLY ONE GOD'. Jesus said the Father is not only our God, but HIS GOD also. How can this be if the 3 in 1 Trinity is true? For the Trinity states that all three are co-equal in EVERY way. But the Father is even quoted Himself in Hebrews 1:9 as saying He is the God of Jesus. So we have two witnesses to this fact. How can this be? Let us see what the apostle Paul says:

1Corinthians 8:5-6

Do you see? Paul confirmed what Jesus said, in that the Father is the 'one God'. But Paul also states why; it is because the Father is the SOURCE OF ALL LIFE, including the life of His own Son Jesus Christ, which we will explain next in 'WHO IS THE SON?'. God the Father is the very source of all life, and Jesus is the BY WHOM all life is created. This makes the Father the 'only true God'. He is the 'one God' the Bible speaks of, look:

1Timothy 2:4-5

Trinitarians believe that the 'one God' is the 3 in 1 Trinity god. And yet this is impossible according to the scriptures, because as the apostle Paul said, 'there us on God ...AND ... one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.' So if Jesus is the mediator between the ONE GOD and men, then how can the one God be the Trinity?That would make FOUR! Do you see the problem? But when you see the TRUTH as we have shown above, that the Father is that, 'one God', then it makes complete sense! Jesus is the one mediator between THE FATHER and mankind.

Acts 3:13

So who is the Father? He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the 'only true God' - the source of all life and sovereign of the universe. He is our Father and God.

WHO IS THE SON? -

According to the Bible, the Son is Jesus Christ, the literal begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Let us take a look:

Romans 8:3 John 3:16-17

Just take a step back and think about these two vverses.For God the Father to SEND His own Son to save us, what does He need to have in the first place to send? A Son right? Both Paul and John tell us that Jesus is God's own Son. Now if Jesus isn't the LITERAL Son of God the Father, and they are just 'role playing', then the above two verses, and many more Bible verses are NOT truth! And if they are not truth, then we may aswell throw away the whole Bible! Just take that in for a moment.

Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5

Only two times did God the Father speak in the New Testament that people actually heard and understood. And what did God the Father used both those occasions to confirm? That Jesus Christ is His beloved Son! Was God trying to get an important message across do you think?

Galatians 4:4 Mark 12:6

The Bible even tells us that Jesus was begotten of the Father way back in eternity past before anything was created. And no, this does NOT mean that Jesus Himself was created. This is a blatant lie aimed at us by Trinitarians. The Father did not take some material and create Jesus like He did with us and the rest of creation. Jesus was begotten [born] of the Father's own divine being - taken from the very bosom of the Father:

Proverbs 8:23-25 Proverbs 30:4 Micah 5:2 Hebrews 1:5-6

These verses clearly tell us of Jesus is begotten (brought forth) of the Father in eternity past. How? We do not know because God has not told us. This is what FAITH is all about - taking God at His Word - "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON". The Bible tells us that Jesus was 'brought forth' from the Father before creation, so we must believe it by faith. Now some people will say, 'Oh, Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom not Jesus.'

1Corinthians 1:24 Luke 11:49 Matthew 23:1,34 1Corinthians 1:30

So the Son is Jesus Christ, the LITERAL begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Jesus Christ is a distinct personal being, apart from the Father and yet 'one' with the Father in Spirit, mind, action and purpose. Jesus is truly the SON OF GOD.

WHO/WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT? -

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus Christ. Let us take a look:

Luke 12:11-12 Matthew 10:19-20

Can you see what the Word of God is telling us here regarding the Holy Spirit? Luke and Matthew tell us that the Holy Spirit that speaks in us is the Spirit of God the Father. Now when you look at the word 'Spirit' in both the Hebrew and Greek, it means 'breath, mind, life.' So if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, then it means the Holy Spirit is the very divine life and mind of God the Father. Look at the two following verses:

Isaiah 40:13 Romans 11:34

Do you see how Paul understood Isaiah 40:13? He knew the Spirit of the Lord is the MIND of God. It is His very life, power and character that He gives to us. But how does the Spirit of the Father come to us? THROUGH Jesus Christ His Son. Look:

Revelation 5:1,6,7 Acts 2:32-33

Peter, speaking to the crowd on the day of Pentecost, explains what has just happened, and what does he say? That Jesus had received the Holy Spirit FROM the Father, and Jesus HIMSELF gives that Spirit - that life and power of the Father - to the disciples. Do you see?
John 20:19-22 Titus 3:4-6

Do you see? The Holy Spirit, which is the life, mind and power of God the Father comes to us through His beloved Son Jesus Christ. It is that 'one Spirit' which they both share, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23 that both He and the Father would dwell in us.

So the Holy Spirit is the divine life of the Father which comes to us through Jesus our Lord. The Holy spirit is not a separate divine being from the Father. We do not know the nature of the Spirit, but we know from the Bible that it is NOT a separate being who sits on the throne of heaven like the Father and His Son, as Revelation tells us that only TWO beings - God and the Lamb sit on the throne for all eternity (Revelation 22:1)

WHY WE REJECT THE TRINITY

As you can see, the Bible clearly teaches that there is 'one God' the Father - A personal divine being. There is also the Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord - another personal divine being - the divine Son of God, begotten of the Father, as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. And the Holy Spirit is the divine life, mind and power of God the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus who is the 'one mediator' between God and man (1Timothy 2:5). But what does the trinity doctrine teach? Well, we saw at the beginning that there are two beliefs regarding the trinity. One is that God is one being consisting of '3 persons' in that one divine being. And the other teaching says that God consists of 3 beings, all co-equal and co-eternal.

Now there are many problems with BOTH of these teachings. The first problem is that the Bible NEVER says 'God is 3 in 1', or that 'God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.' The Bible ONLY ever says that the 'only true God is the Father '(John 17:3 1Corinthians 8:6). Yes, John 1 says that Jesus is God (divine). But that is because He is the SON OF God which makes Jesus 'God' (divine) like His Father. I am human and I have a son, which makes my son human also. But my son is NOT me and I have authority over my son, just as the Father has authority over His Son Jesus.
John 14:28 1Corinthians 15:27-28

Do you see? Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater than He. Does that mean Jesus is some 'lesser god'? No. Jesus is as divine as the Father. But the Father has authority over His Son, being the first, just as Adam had authority over Eve, being the first. And when all things are done, Jesus will be subject unto the Father, as 1Corinthians 15 confirms above. This proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false.

So basically you have a different model of the trinity. A little similar to the Arian model which of course was not called trinity. I would like to hear form you if you believe the Holy Spirit is coeternal with God. I presume you believe that Jesus is not coeternal since he is the begotten son, yet if I got you wrong you could correct me.

What about the Holy Spirit? Is it coeternal or created by God the father?

 

[metis]

Thomas called Jesus God in John 20:28.

Good point, but I'm not sure of the context because if he used "Elohim" as God's name in Hebrew that means "an overseer" or like "my master".

The "son" cannot literally be the "father", plus Jesus does differentiate between the two. For example, you don't pray to yourself-- at least I hope not.

Thus, what I do believe Jesus and probably John is saying is that Jesus and God were on the "same page". Plus, we hafta remember that John's gospel has a very late writing, therefore there would quite possibly be time enough for Jesus to possibly be deified, much like the many who came to believe that Gandhi was God (Brahman). However, the latter had written many times that this wasn't the case.

 

[metis]

According to Scripture, God the Father is the God of Jesus.
The one true God in scripture is both the God and Father of Jesus.

Correct.

Nowhere does the Scripture teach that Jesus has two minds and two wills that can oppose each other as Trinitarians claim.

Only if one allows one's self to fall victim to literalism. For example, Jesus at one point says "I and the Father are one". If one takes that literally, then that goes against what you and I believe. Instead, I believe that statement should be taken figuratively, which is also what "essence" implies in this context. IOW, Jesus is of the Father, much like the bread & wine are of Jesus' body & blood.

Again, the use of "essence" was heavily used not only with the Greeks themselves but also amongst scholars within the Mediterranean region. Even today, well over 2000 years later, we talk about the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, etc. as if they lived not that long ago.

ALL scripture must be put into the context of the language and culture it was originally used in, thus the fact that Koine Greek was the language used to pen the NT is quite important.

 

[Fool]

We Believe in the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT - But We Reject THE MAINSTREAM 3 in 1 TRINITY TEACHING - AN EXPLANATION

I wanted to set something straight on this matter, due to a lot of confusion and twisting the facts regarding our belief about God. Trinitarians accuse us of denying the Holy Spirit, and believing that Christ was created, which is completely false. I have also had people asking me how I can believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet reject the Trinity, when "Father, Son and Holy Spirit IS the Trinity". So I wanted to lay out the clear Bible truth of why we reject and STRONGLY REJECT the mainstream Trinity teaching, while at the same time fully believing in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There are two mainstream thoughts regarding trinitarianism. One says that there are 3 divine beings united as 'one god' the other says there is only 1 being, with 3 'persons' or 'personalities' that is 'one god' consists of, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the SAME BEING. We reject BOTH of these teachings.

SO WHAT DO WE BELIEVE?

Let me share with you what we believe and then I will share with you WHY we reject those two beliefs regarding the Trinity above. While we fully believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, instead of using man's definitions, we turn to the Word of God for understanding of this very important subject. Afterall, the God we worship is THE most important part of our faith. So let me share with you, from the Bible, what we believe regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

WHO IS THE FATHER? -

According to the Bible, God the Father is that 'one God' whom Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets and apostles worshiped. He is the source of all life, the sovereign of the universe. Let us look at what the Bible says:

John 4:21-24 John 20:17 John 17:1-3

According to Jesus own words, who is the Father? Is He merely a 'third part' of the Trinity god? No! Jesus said Himself that His Father is the 'ONLY ONE GOD'. Jesus said the Father is not only our God, but HIS GOD also. How can this be if the 3 in 1 Trinity is true? For the Trinity states that all three are co-equal in EVERY way. But the Father is even quoted Himself in Hebrews 1:9 as saying He is the God of Jesus. So we have two witnesses to this fact. How can this be? Let us see what the apostle Paul says:

1Corinthians 8:5-6

Do you see? Paul confirmed what Jesus said, in that the Father is the 'one God'. But Paul also states why; it is because the Father is the SOURCE OF ALL LIFE, including the life of His own Son Jesus Christ, which we will explain next in 'WHO IS THE SON?'. God the Father is the very source of all life, and Jesus is the BY WHOM all life is created. This makes the Father the 'only true God'. He is the 'one God' the Bible speaks of, look:

1Timothy 2:4-5

Trinitarians believe that the 'one God' is the 3 in 1 Trinity god. And yet this is impossible according to the scriptures, because as the apostle Paul said, 'there us on God ...AND ... one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.' So if Jesus is the mediator between the ONE GOD and men, then how can the one God be the Trinity?That would make FOUR! Do you see the problem? But when you see the TRUTH as we have shown above, that the Father is that, 'one God', then it makes complete sense! Jesus is the one mediator between THE FATHER and mankind.

Acts 3:13

So who is the Father? He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the 'only true God' - the source of all life and sovereign of the universe. He is our Father and God.

WHO IS THE SON? -

According to the Bible, the Son is Jesus Christ, the literal begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Let us take a look:

Romans 8:3 John 3:16-17

Just take a step back and think about these two vverses.For God the Father to SEND His own Son to save us, what does He need to have in the first place to send? A Son right? Both Paul and John tell us that Jesus is God's own Son. Now if Jesus isn't the LITERAL Son of God the Father, and they are just 'role playing', then the above two verses, and many more Bible verses are NOT truth! And if they are not truth, then we may aswell throw away the whole Bible! Just take that in for a moment.

Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5

Only two times did God the Father speak in the New Testament that people actually heard and understood. And what did God the Father used both those occasions to confirm? That Jesus Christ is His beloved Son! Was God trying to get an important message across do you think?

Galatians 4:4 Mark 12:6

The Bible even tells us that Jesus was begotten of the Father way back in eternity past before anything was created. And no, this does NOT mean that Jesus Himself was created. This is a blatant lie aimed at us by Trinitarians. The Father did not take some material and create Jesus like He did with us and the rest of creation. Jesus was begotten [born] of the Father's own divine being - taken from the very bosom of the Father:

Proverbs 8:23-25 Proverbs 30:4 Micah 5:2 Hebrews 1:5-6

These verses clearly tell us of Jesus is begotten (brought forth) of the Father in eternity past. How? We do not know because God has not told us. This is what FAITH is all about - taking God at His Word - "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON". The Bible tells us that Jesus was 'brought forth' from the Father before creation, so we must believe it by faith. Now some people will say, 'Oh, Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom not Jesus.'

1Corinthians 1:24 Luke 11:49 Matthew 23:1,34 1Corinthians 1:30

So the Son is Jesus Christ, the LITERAL begotten Son of God the Father; begotten as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. Jesus Christ is a distinct personal being, apart from the Father and yet 'one' with the Father in Spirit, mind, action and purpose. Jesus is truly the SON OF GOD.

WHO/WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT? -

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus Christ. Let us take a look:

Luke 12:11-12 Matthew 10:19-20

Can you see what the Word of God is telling us here regarding the Holy Spirit? Luke and Matthew tell us that the Holy Spirit that speaks in us is the Spirit of God the Father. Now when you look at the word 'Spirit' in both the Hebrew and Greek, it means 'breath, mind, life.' So if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, then it means the Holy Spirit is the very divine life and mind of God the Father. Look at the two following verses:

Isaiah 40:13 Romans 11:34

Do you see how Paul understood Isaiah 40:13? He knew the Spirit of the Lord is the MIND of God. It is His very life, power and character that He gives to us. But how does the Spirit of the Father come to us? THROUGH Jesus Christ His Son. Look:

Revelation 5:1,6,7 Acts 2:32-33

Peter, speaking to the crowd on the day of Pentecost, explains what has just happened, and what does he say? That Jesus had received the Holy Spirit FROM the Father, and Jesus HIMSELF gives that Spirit - that life and power of the Father - to the disciples. Do you see?
John 20:19-22 Titus 3:4-6

Do you see? The Holy Spirit, which is the life, mind and power of God the Father comes to us through His beloved Son Jesus Christ. It is that 'one Spirit' which they both share, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23 that both He and the Father would dwell in us.

So the Holy Spirit is the divine life of the Father which comes to us through Jesus our Lord. The Holy spirit is not a separate divine being from the Father. We do not know the nature of the Spirit, but we know from the Bible that it is NOT a separate being who sits on the throne of heaven like the Father and His Son, as Revelation tells us that only TWO beings - God and the Lamb sit on the throne for all eternity (Revelation 22:1)

WHY WE REJECT THE TRINITY

As you can see, the Bible clearly teaches that there is 'one God' the Father - A personal divine being. There is also the Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord - another personal divine being - the divine Son of God, begotten of the Father, as a true Son in eternity past before anything was created. And the Holy Spirit is the divine life, mind and power of God the Father, which He gives to us through His Son Jesus who is the 'one mediator' between God and man (1Timothy 2:5). But what does the trinity doctrine teach? Well, we saw at the beginning that there are two beliefs regarding the trinity. One is that God is one being consisting of '3 persons' in that one divine being. And the other teaching says that God consists of 3 beings, all co-equal and co-eternal.

Now there are many problems with BOTH of these teachings. The first problem is that the Bible NEVER says 'God is 3 in 1', or that 'God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.' The Bible ONLY ever says that the 'only true God is the Father '(John 17:3 1Corinthians 8:6). Yes, John 1 says that Jesus is God (divine). But that is because He is the SON OF God which makes Jesus 'God' (divine) like His Father. I am human and I have a son, which makes my son human also. But my son is NOT me and I have authority over my son, just as the Father has authority over His Son Jesus.
John 14:28 1Corinthians 15:27-28

Do you see? Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater than He. Does that mean Jesus is some 'lesser god'? No. Jesus is as divine as the Father. But the Father has authority over His Son, being the first, just as Adam had authority over Eve, being the first. And when all things are done, Jesus will be subject unto the Father, as 1Corinthians 15 confirms above. This proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false.

in the begotten the logos was created, what you call christ. it is from this image, this form that man was created. it concurs with genesis 1:3 ; when God speaks first the christ appeared. the creator is greater than the begotten though. they are not coequal. christ is the light of genesis 1:3 and john 1:4

 

[Fool]

Correct.

Only if one allows one's self to fall victim to literalism. For example, Jesus at one point says "I and the Father are one". If one takes that literally, then that goes against what you and I believe. Instead, I believe that statement should be taken figuratively, which is also what "essence" implies in this context. IOW, Jesus is of the Father, much like the bread & wine are of Jesus' body & blood.

Again, the use of "essence" was heavily used not only with the Greeks themselves but also amongst scholars within the Mediterranean region. Even today, well over 2000 years later, we talk about the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, etc. as if they lived not that long ago.

ALL scripture must be put into the context of the language and culture it was originally used in, thus the fact that Koine Greek was the language used to pen the NT is quite important.

a drop of water can be one with the ocean but it isn't the All, Absolute

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Good point, but I'm not sure of the context because if he used "Elohim" as God's name in Hebrew that means "an overseer" or like "my master".

The "son" cannot literally be the "father", plus Jesus does differentiate between the two. For example, you don't pray to yourself-- at least I hope not.

Thus, what I do believe Jesus and probably John is saying is that Jesus and God were on the "same page". Plus, we hafta remember that John's gospel has a very late writing, therefore there would quite possibly be time enough for Jesus to possibly be deified, much like the many who came to believe that Gandhi was God (Brahman). However, the latter had written many times that this wasn't the case.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thomas called Jesus God in John 20:28.

Since he put Lord on there, it sounds like god is a title of authority not an entity onto itself.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Since he put Lord on there, it sounds like god is a title of authority not an entity onto itself.

He was calling Jesus Lord and God.