We need to have an honest discussion about race in America

[Curious George]

Many point to unequal outcomes and assume racism without looking at other possible factors

My point is, going by your standard, if someone accuses you or a system of being racist without pointing to specifics (perhaps they accuse you of unintentional bias against another race, or unequal outcomes and just assuming systemic racism) there is no way to prove them wrong; even if they are wrong.

Unequal outcomes suggest that something is amiss. If there is another plausible cause that should be considered. I think what you are saying is that there is some evidence of discrimination but not conclusive evidence of discrimination. If there is some evidence, then there should be more investigation, wouldn't you agree?

 

[metis]

Unequal outcomes suggest that something is amiss. If there is another plausible cause that should be considered. I think what you are saying is that there is some evidence of discrimination but not conclusive evidence of discrimination. If there is some evidence, then there should be more investigation, wouldn't you agree?

Well said imo, and, as Gandhi stated, the reality is rarely simple. Racism has had an effect on performance, no doubt, especially since education, income, and opportunities can be and often are affected. However, there are also other factors that must be considered as well.

 

[Kfox]

Unequal outcomes suggest that something is amiss.

I disagree; outcomes are almost never equal; people are too diverse for that.

If there is another plausible cause that should be considered.

But too often nobody wants to look at other plausible factors; pointing to race is easier.

I think what you are saying is that there is some evidence of discrimination but not conclusive evidence of discrimination.

No. I think culture is 99% of the problem; but nobody wants to look at that because it requires self action rather than pointing to something/somebody else as the crux of your problems problems.

 

[Curious George]

I disagree; outcomes are almost never equal; people are too diverse for that.

Yes but when those outcomes continually show disparity around specific demographics it signals that something is not right, because as you said "people are too diverse for that."

But too often nobody wants to look at other plausible factors; pointing to race is easier.

I do not know the frequency of others not wanting to examine alternate explanations. I agree that some people do not want to engage in critical thinking.

No. I think culture is 99% of the problem; but nobody wants to look at that because it requires self action rather than pointing to something/somebody else as the crux of your problems problems.

Can you explain this more thoroughly and provide examples? To what culture are you referring? In what ways does that culture impact individuals? And what self action is required to what end?

 

[Kooky]

Intrinsically racist or intrinsically non racist? Nothing I've said even suggested I believe such an absurd idea. Where are you getting this stuff?

"replacing the racist in power with [non-racists], will end the racism"

This argument really only makes sense if racism is a trait intrinsic to people, rather than learned behavior based on one's social environment - because the latter would imply that people become racist by existing in racist environments, i.e. that racism is inevitably a systemic/cultural/institutional problem rather than a problem of individual, personal prejudice that exists completely independently of these factors.

Oh, and there is also this:
"No matter the system in place, if you have bad people in positions of power, there will always be those who will figure out a way to circumvent the system and do wrong."

which, once again, suggests that there are people who are simply "bad" as a kind of intrinsic feature, rather than that people learn behavior that has bad consequences to some other people based on incentives and habits immanent to the social systems they inhabit.

In short, the reason for our differences in opinion is a fundamental opposition in understanding what shapes human values and human behavior, and how that relates to social systems and social environments.

 

[Kfox]

Yes but when those outcomes continually show disparity around specific demographics it signals that something is not right, because as you said "people are too diverse for that."

No; it doesn’t necessarily show something is not right, it shows something is different.

Can you explain this more thoroughly and provide examples? To what culture are you referring? In what ways does that culture impact individuals? And what self action is required to what end?

In many of the inner cities in America, there is a street culture that gives you street cred for going to prison, and criticizes those who speak properly and get good grades in school, or dress professionally as acting white. Even Obama spoke of this

https://nextshark.com/charles-barkley-explains-why-most-black-people-will-never-be-successful/
I remember Charles Barkley mentioning how when he gives speeches at schools, when he goes to a white school he asks the same question he asks when he goes to a black school; which is “how many of you want to be professional athletes” but at the white schools only about 20% of the students raise their hands, while at the black schools nearly all hands are raised. Obviously there are more chances of making it as a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. than as a professional athlete; it’s almost as if this culture encourages kids to excel in areas where you are less likely to make it financially. Some might call this a street culture, hip hop culture or whatever and it isn’t just black kids involved in this, but unfortunately black kids seem to be over represented in this culture. Black immigrants don’t come here with this culture, they have their own culture, and it is no surprise, they outperform native blacks in education and income. As a matter of fact, Nigerians immigrants are known to have a culture similar to Asians, and they excel in education and income to the level of Asians; out preforming white people
Data show Nigerians the most educated in the U.S.
I say this has to do with culture, not racism.

 

[Kfox]

"replacing the racist in power with [non-racists], will end the racism"

This argument really only makes sense if racism is a trait intrinsic to people, rather than learned behavior based on one's social environment

Wrong. This argument make sense if you recognize racism does exist! Whether it is intrinsic or not is irrelevant to the point made

Oh, and there is also this:
"No matter the system in place, if you have bad people in positions of power, there will always be those who will figure out a way to circumvent the system and do wrong."

which, once again, suggests that there are people who are simply "bad" as a kind of intrinsic feature,

Wrong again. Whether it is intrinsic feature or not is not addressed in the point made. It just makes the point that bad people exist; how they got that way is irrelevant to the point being made.

 

[Kooky]

Wrong. This argument make sense if you recognize racism does exist!

No, it only makes sense if you recognize that racists exist; that is, a specific group of people whose quality it is that they are racist (by your definition, racist prejudices/beliefs) rather than actions that happen to have a racist effect.

Wrong again. Whether it is intrinsic feature or not is not addressed in the point made. It just makes the point that bad people exist; how they got that way is irrelevant to the point being made.

I reject the premise that bad people exist; that is, a specific group of people whose quality it is that they are bad/evil, rather than a group of people who simply did a bad thing.

 

[Kooky]

No; it doesn’t necessarily show something is not right, it shows something is different.

In many of the inner cities in America, there is a street culture that gives you street cred for going to prison, and criticizes those who speak properly and get good grades in school, or dress professionally as acting white. Even Obama spoke of this

https://nextshark.com/charles-barkley-explains-why-most-black-people-will-never-be-successful/
I remember Charles Barkley mentioning how when he gives speeches at schools, when he goes to a white school he asks the same question he asks when he goes to a black school; which is “how many of you want to be professional athletes” but at the white schools only about 20% of the students raise their hands, while at the black schools nearly all hands are raised. Obviously there are more chances of making it as a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. than as a professional athlete; it’s almost as if this culture encourages kids to excel in areas where you are less likely to make it financially. Some might call this a street culture, hip hop culture or whatever and it isn’t just black kids involved in this, but unfortunately black kids seem to be over represented in this culture. Black immigrants don’t come here with this culture, they have their own culture, and it is no surprise, they outperform native blacks in education and income. As a matter of fact, Nigerians immigrants are known to have a culture similar to Asians, and they excel in education and income to the level of Asians; out preforming white people
Data show Nigerians the most educated in the U.S.
I say this has to do with culture, not racism.

So why do you think that is the case?
Is "Black culture" just promoting uniquely irrational beliefs for no rhyme or reason?

 

[Kfox]

So why do you think that is the case?
Is "Black culture" just promoting uniquely irrational beliefs for no rhyme or reason?

First of all, that is not a black culture, it is a street culture. They are that way because the culture is controlled by those who glamorize street life, aka "Thug life" aka criminal life.

 

[Kooky]

First of all, that is not a black culture, it is a street culture. They are that way because the culture is controlled by those who glamorize street life, aka "Thug life" aka criminal life.

Would you say that is true of all Black people who suffer from poverty?
If not, then why don't they just pull themselves up from nothing, like you seem to think White people do all the time?

 

[Kfox]

Would you say that is true of all Black people who suffer from poverty?
If not, then why don't they just pull themselves up from nothing, like you seem to think White people do all the time?

Are you serious??? First of all I made it clear this is not a black culture, it is a street culture, and there is a segment of all races involved in this culture; white, brown, asian, as well. But unfortunately a disproportionate number of black kids seem to be drawn to it.
Second; as far as white people pulling themselves up from nothing? Where are you getting this craziness?

 

[Kooky]

Are you serious??? First of all I made it clear this is not a black culture, it is a street culture, and there is a segment of all races involved in this culture; white, brown, asian, as well. But unfortunately a disproportionate number of black kids seem to be drawn to it.

Do you believe Black people are poor because they adhere to a "street culture" that tells them to be criminals, or not?

 

[Kfox]

Do you believe Black people are poor because they adhere to a "street culture" that tells them to be criminals, or not?

First of all, street culture doesn't tell anybody to be criminals, it glamorizes criminal life. Second most black people in the US are not poor, those who are, are poor for the same reasons everyone else is poor; which includes a variety of different reasons.

 

[Kooky]

First of all, street culture doesn't tell anybody to be criminals, it glamorizes criminal life. Second most black people in the US are not poor, those who are, are poor for the same reasons everyone else is poor; which includes a variety of different reasons.

Then what was the point of that whole thing about "street culture"?

 

[Kfox]

Then what was the point of that whole thing about "street culture"?

The conversation I was having with the person before you joined, was about the disparity in economics between blacks and other races. I said though kids of all races are involved in the street culture, a deprotonate number of black kids are involved.

 

[Curious George]

No; it doesn’t necessarily show something is not right, it shows something is different.

In many of the inner cities in America, there is a street culture that gives you street cred for going to prison, and criticizes those who speak properly and get good grades in school, or dress professionally as acting white. Even Obama spoke of this

https://nextshark.com/charles-barkley-explains-why-most-black-people-will-never-be-successful/
I remember Charles Barkley mentioning how when he gives speeches at schools, when he goes to a white school he asks the same question he asks when he goes to a black school; which is “how many of you want to be professional athletes” but at the white schools only about 20% of the students raise their hands, while at the black schools nearly all hands are raised. Obviously there are more chances of making it as a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. than as a professional athlete; it’s almost as if this culture encourages kids to excel in areas where you are less likely to make it financially. Some might call this a street culture, hip hop culture or whatever and it isn’t just black kids involved in this, but unfortunately black kids seem to be over represented in this culture. Black immigrants don’t come here with this culture, they have their own culture, and it is no surprise, they outperform native blacks in education and income. As a matter of fact, Nigerians immigrants are known to have a culture similar to Asians, and they excel in education and income to the level of Asians; out preforming white people
Data show Nigerians the most educated in the U.S.
I say this has to do with culture, not racism.

I think that you are fusing two separate parts of American culture that do not give a full explanation.

One aspect is the concept that whiteness is bad. Whiteness can be portrayed as lacking something that other people associate as integral to that culture. Examples are when a person doesn't like spicy foods, or has poor rhythm. Casting something as white is almost always done with negative connotations. This is not street culture, this is ubiquitous. Even white people will tell other white people that they are too white at all levels of society.

The next aspect of American culture is a focus on "toughness" especially for boys. Whether this is athleticism or going to prison, the idea is the same. Placing a premium on toughness.

Why then does Charles Barkley have different experiences based on the racial demographics of children in the schools? I would suggest that the primary driving force is socioeconomic not race. Children in lower socioeconomic standings are faced with a different set of traumas that prioritize "toughness" as a value. Being tough can help you stop that person from hurting you.

When toughness is overvalued, then other traits that do not comport with toughness are undervalued or mocked. I don't mean to oversimplify the issue, there are other components involved too such as ego and jealousy, but this is no different than the jocks bullying nerds trope. And, when paired together with whiteness as a negative trait, allows children of other races to attack less valued traits as being too white.

The problem is that such a culture is only impactful too a certain extent. It would be hard to suggest that this culture is responsible for the disparities we see in housing, employment, incarceration rates, etc.

Moreover, why are there minority populations overrepresented in the lower socioeconomic classes in the first place? Of it is your argument that street culture is to blame, why is it that minorities are over represented in the street culture in the first place. Could this be related to the oppression those minorities have faced historically? And of so, isn't that just back to a larger racial problem?

I am not suggesting that the "street culture," which i think is another facet of American culture does not have any impact, i just do not see how anyone can lay the blame for the racial disparities we do see at the foot of this "culture." And, even if we could lay the blame on this "culture," how we could not see that this "culture" is a part of the larger racial problem that still exists.

 

[Kfox]

I think that you are fusing two separate parts of American culture that do not give a full explanation.

One aspect is the concept that whiteness is bad. Whiteness can be portrayed as lacking something that other people associate as integral to that culture. Examples are when a person doesn't like spicy foods, or has poor rhythm. Casting something as white is almost always done with negative connotations. This is not street culture, this is ubiquitous. Even white people will tell other white people that they are too white at all levels of society.

But all too often whiteness is labeled things like getting good grades in school, following the rules, or acting professional, these things help you get ahead in life. I remember Spike Lee once said concerning Colin Powell’s success in the military; that he had to have compromised himself as a black man in order to accomplish what he did. That is the attitude I am talking about.

The next aspect of American culture is a focus on "toughness" especially for boys. Whether this is athleticism or going to prison, the idea is the same. Placing a premium on toughness.

Getting bad grades in school does not make you tough. Having sex before you are responsible enough to take care of a child does not make you tough. I think it is a little more than just trying to be tough.

Why then does Charles Barkley have different experiences based on the racial demographics of children in the schools? I would suggest that the primary driving force is socioeconomic not race. Children in lower socioeconomic standings are faced with a different set of traumas that prioritize "toughness" as a value. Being tough can help you stop that person from hurting you.

What about middle class black families who live in safe neighborhoods who have parents with plenty of money who gravitate to that culture?

The problem is that such a culture is only impactful too a certain extent. It would be hard to suggest that this culture is responsible for the disparities we see in housing, employment, incarceration rates, etc.

Disparity in housing and employment has to do with economics. You get a better job and house if you act white and get good grades
Incarceration rates is when you glamorize criminal behavior.

Moreover, why are there minority populations overrepresented in the lower socioeconomic classes in the first place? Of it is your argument that street culture is to blame, why is it that minorities are over represented in the street culture in the first place. Could this be related to the oppression those minorities have faced historically? And of so, isn't that just back to a larger racial problem?

I am not suggesting that the "street culture," which i think is another facet of American culture does not have any impact, i just do not see how anyone can lay the blame for the racial disparities we do see at the foot of this "culture." And, even if we could lay the blame on this "culture," how we could not see that this "culture" is a part of the larger racial problem that still exists.

So why do black immigrants who migrate to the US from various African nations, Bahamas, South America etc. with a different culture, seem to out preform native blacks who are decedents of slaves? Nigerian immigrants even out preform white people and are on par with Asians? Why isn’t the racial problems preventing them from getting ahead?

 

[Curious George]

But all too often whiteness is labeled things like getting good grades in school, following the rules, or acting professional, these things help you get ahead in life.

I think many times whiteness is associated with not being cool. In many ways it has replaced nerd. But I do not think that this is so true that it causes a huge impact. My point is that we have always seen this culture of getting good grades, following the rules etc pushed into a negative light. I don't think this is "street culture" i think this is american culture.

I remember Spike Lee once said concerning Colin Powell’s success in the military; that he had to have compromised himself as a black man in order to accomplish what he did. That is the attitude I am talking about.

I imagine you can find someone saying virtually anything, that doesn't mean there is substance to it. But, given this particular statement why do you think the comment is problematic. Former secretay of state, General powell, was born in 1937. He began serving in 1958. Have you imagined what life was like for him? Does it surprise you that someone of a different generation was judgmental of General Powell's choices? Especially someone who benefits from espousing incendiary rhetoric?

Getting bad grades in school does not make you tough. Having sex before you are responsible enough to take care of a child does not make you tough. I think it is a little more than just trying to be tough.

No but there are plenty of reasons why those are valued by our culture. Why you think this is only valued by teenagers and preteens that are a part of street culture is surprising.

What about middle class black families who live in safe neighborhoods who have parents with plenty of money who gravitate to that culture?

I have no reason to think that those children are flocking towards that culture any more or less than their socioeconomic peers, regardless of race.

Disparity in housing and employment has to do with economics. You get a better job and house if you act white and get good grades

Firstly, getting a better job for getting better grades is not necessarily true. I am not even sure it is generally true. Secondly, why is getting better grades acting white. Following the rules may be used as "acting white" by some. Being a "try-hard" may be called acting white by some. Being a "teacher's pet" may be labeled as "acting white" by some, but there is no clear consensus that any of these things are acting white. "Acting white" is a catchall putdown for anything that isn't cool, lacks style, or goes against a "woke" narrative. It is at once a label for both submissive and aggressive qualities. If acting white means anything, it is contextual. A pejorative placeholder to symbolize a lack of acceptable behavior.

Incarceration rates is when you glamorize criminal behavior.

Do you really think that is the whole story? You don't think visibility plays a role? You don't think that past trauma plays a role?

So why do black immigrants who migrate to the US from various African nations, Bahamas, South America etc. with a different culture, seem to out preform native blacks who are decedents of slaves?

For the same reason they outperform whites who have been here for generations. I think thos question is a subtle attempt at a strawman. I dod not say that culture doesn't play a role, i said that "culture" is not the whole story.

Nigerian immigrants even out preform white people and are on par with Asians? Why isn’t the racial problems preventing them from getting ahead?

The racial disparities we see today are not so overwhelming that they, in themselves, are preventing a group as a whole from success. People of all walks of life can find success. However as you add layers of trauma, as you add discriminatory impediments, as you add cultural biases you greatly dampen the outcomes.

The issues have always been more complex than just about race. And people who discuss race often want to focus on race. But in the same vein, because there are other factors at play does not mean that there is not racial factors also at play.

America is a product of its history. Some of that history related to race. That has impacted generations of Americans. That history continues to impact us to this day. To ignore this impact and claim that it is merely "culture" that is impacting us is to ignore how that racism has shaped our culture.

 

[Kooky]

The conversation I was having with the person before you joined, was about the disparity in economics between blacks and other races. I said though kids of all races are involved in the street culture, a deprotonate number of black kids are involved.

Do you believe "street culture" influences that economic disparity, or not?