We need to have an honest discussion about race in America

[Friend of Mara]

What about culture? Do you think culture might have something to do with it?

Such as? The culture of living in poverty tends to lead to the children also living their lives in poverty as an adult? The cycle of poverty is a really good springboard for the discussion on what we can do systematically to change an unfair environment.

Such as?

I can compile a hundred different instances in a list. But before I waste time I'd like to know I'm not talking to a wall.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I can't speak for all proponents of Critical Race Theory, but I am convinced 2 people who have written books that have become the face of CRT; Robin Dangelo and Ibram Kendi are both racists. I base this on the books they've written, and the interviews they've given concerning their views on race.

Care to highlight a few? If you have read 2 sentences by Ibram X Kendi then I won't have to compile that list for you since that is almost entirely what is life's work is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would offer that "From the Bahá’í perspective, racism is one of the most baneful and persistent evils in society. Racial discrimination is baneful because it violates the dignity of human beings. And yet it persists. Racism is poisonous because it cripples its victims, corrupts its perpetrators, and blights human progress. And yet it persists. Why? We believe that racism persists precisely because it is deeply rooted in outdated attitudes and erroneous beliefs. Accordingly, any campaign to eradicate racism must change those attitudes and beliefs."

Bahá’í International Community, 1989 Feb 08, Eliminating Racism

Regards Tony

 

[Kooky]

I can't speak for all proponents of Critical Race Theory, but I am convinced 2 people who have written books that have become the face of CRT; Robin Dangelo and Ibram Kendi are both racists. I base this on the books they've written, and the interviews they've given concerning their views on race.

Can you explain why you think so, and what definition of "racist" you are using here?

 

[Kfox]

Such as? The culture of living in poverty tends to lead to the children also living their lives in poverty as an adult? The cycle of poverty is a really good springboard for the discussion on what we can do systematically to change an unfair environment.

I don’t think poverty is a culture, it is more of an economic misfortune.

Care to highlight a few? If you have read 2 sentences by Ibram X Kendi then I won't have to compile that list for you since that is almost entirely what is life's work is. .

Kendi seems to see racism in everything. His idea that you are either a racist or an antiracist there is no neutral position; I find absurd especially when his idea of antiracism is based on his subjective views (IOW unless you agree with him, you are racist)
I remember an interview where he was asked if Capitalism was racist, he said it was because black people don’t engage in it to the extent white people do. I find this absurd. Even though he did admit in his youth he was racist, but no longer is, he still seems extremely obsessed with racism and such people in my experience has always turned out to be racist themselves.

Robin Diangelo in her book white fragility says white people who believe they are not racist are blinded by their racism by their white fragility. That white people are socialized in a sense of superiority that they are either unaware of or refuse to admit to themselves.
She seems to think all white people are unconscious beneficiaries of racism, and it is their white fragility that prevents them from seeing this. In my view it is racist to judge all white people this way. If a book this scathing were written about black or brown people, it would never get published, and the work would be vilified

 

[Kfox]

Can you explain why you think so, and what definition of "racist" you are using here?

I see a racist as a person who believes a race is either superior or inferior, they may also see a race as inherently wicked or bad, or they may judge an entire race due to the actions of a few. From my experience; people who see racism in everything are usually racist themselves.

 

[Kfox]

Don't these views stray away from an "all races are equal" viewpoint? If we think these inequalities exist, then what is the best way to address them?

No they don’t. Let me explain;

Do you believe all races have faced equal historic oppression?
All races have faced oppression. But equal oppression? That would be nearly impossible

Do you believe all races have equally been impacted by the historic oppression they have faced?
Again’ equally impacted? Impossible.

Do you believe that race, or the perception thereof, equally impacts people's lives today?
Some lives may be impacted, others not; again; not equal

 

[Friend of Mara]

I don’t think poverty is a culture, it is more of an economic misfortune.

Misfortune that was entirely constructed and can, if we so desire, restrict.

Kendi seems to see racism in everything. His idea that you are either a racist or an antiracist there is no neutral position; I find absurd especially when his idea of antiracism is based on his subjective views (IOW unless you agree with him, you are racist)
I remember an interview where he was asked if Capitalism was racist, he said it was because black people don’t engage in it to the extent white people do. I find this absurd. Even though he did admit in his youth he was racist, but no longer is, he still seems extremely obsessed with racism and such people in my experience has always turned out to be racist themselves.[/quote]
There is no neutral position. Passivity in the face of racism is racism. Albeit performative. Though the inner workings of someone's thoughts on race matter far less than the actions they take.

Everything written about race in his books are because that is his field of study. Weird how Stephen Hawkings saw physics. He was real obsessed with it I think.

And your gut feeling on the matter doesn't hold much weight since you haven't actually mentioned anything racist about his content.

Robin Diangelo in her book white fragility says white people who believe they are not racist are blinded by their racism by their white fragility. That white people are socialized in a sense of superiority that they are either unaware of or refuse to admit to themselves.
She seems to think all white people are unconscious beneficiaries of racism, and it is their white fragility that prevents them from seeing this. In my view it is racist to judge all white people this way. If a book this scathing were written about black or brown people, it would never get published, and the work would be vilified

Ah yes. The infamous white fragility that many people were offended by.

Provocative but not racist. It isn't an inherent quality that she is ascribing to white people. White fragility was a term coined to go viral. Do you know what white fragility is in the context of her work? Is it about white people as a race? I'm curious because a lot of people don't understand it. For example in a country where white people are the minority and don't have disproportionate control could be argued to not have while fragility. Its basically the same phenomenon of class as well. For example there are people who are extremely wealthy that know, understand and admit that the reason they are so wealthy is by circumstance, luck or systematic powers. Then there are many extremely wealthy people who feel they deserved and earned all of the wealth they have. In this example it is the "wealth fragility" blinding them to the reality of their situation.

It is a description of the psychological phenomenon where people reject the notion that they were beneficiaries of anything other than their own efforts. This isn't a perfect example since soon as you get into the nitty gritty of nuance it gets complicated. But for this same reason I don't personally agree with her take as a simple phenomenon.

 

[Kfox]

(kfox quote)
Kendi seems to see racism in everything. His idea that you are either a racist or an antiracist there is no neutral position; I find absurd especially when his idea of antiracism is based on his subjective views (IOW unless you agree with him, you are racist)
I remember an interview where he was asked if Capitalism was racist, he said it was because black people don’t engage in it to the extent white people do. I find this absurd. Even though he did admit in his youth he was racist, but no longer is, he still seems extremely obsessed with racism and such people in my experience has always turned out to be racist themselves.

There is no neutral position. Passivity in the face of racism is racism.

First of all I didn’t say passivity in the face of racism, I said being neutral. Not everybody deals with racism on a regular basis.
Second; to suggest refusing to fight racism makes you a racist is as absurd as suggesting refusing to stop someone from killing another makes you a murderer.

Everything written about race in his books are because that is his field of study. Weird how Stephen Hawkings saw physics. He was real obsessed with it I think.

Going by your logic, Stephen Hawkins obsessed with physics ends up becoming a physicist, so this guy obsessed with racism he ends up being a….. Oh wait! You’re making my point aren’t you.

And your gut feeling on the matter doesn't hold much weight since you haven't actually mentioned anything racist about his content.

I was expressing my opinion when I said I believe they were racist.

Ah yes. The infamous white fragility that many people were offended by.

Provocative but not racist. It isn't an inherent quality that she is ascribing to white people. White fragility was a term coined to go viral. Do you know what white fragility is in the context of her work? Is it about white people as a race? I'm curious because a lot of people don't understand it.

There are people who fit the description she presents with “white fragility” the problem is she seems to apply it to all white people, and her accusation is unfalsifiable. She will see a white person denying her accusation as evidence of guilt. To vilify an entire race that way is in my view racist.

 

[Friend of Mara]

First of all I didn’t say passivity in the face of racism, I said being neutral. Not everybody deals with racism on a regular basis.
Second; to suggest refusing to fight racism makes you a racist is as absurd as suggesting refusing to stop someone from killing another makes you a murderer.

If you witness a murder and don't come forward you are legally an accomplice are you not?
If you allow racism you too are guilty of propagating racism.

Going by your logic, Stephen Hawkins obsessed with physics ends up becoming a physicist, so this guy obsessed with racism he ends up being a….. Oh wait! You’re making my point aren’t you.

A black man living in America. Wonder how that topic might have piqued his interest.

I was expressing my opinion when I said I believe they were racist.

Well as the opinion is coming from a racist I can ignore it right? Because my opinion could be that you are a racist. Just getting that vibe ya'know? Or is that not a fair assessment?

There are people who fit the description she presents with “white fragility” the problem is she seems to apply it to all white people, and her accusation is unfalsifiable. She will see a white person denying her accusation as evidence of guilt. To vilify an entire race that way is in my view racist.

Go back and read the part you cut out and maybe you can work out why what you are saying is nonsense.

 

[oldbadger]

I see a racist as a person who believes a race is either superior or inferior, they may also see a race as inherently wicked or bad, or they may judge an entire race due to the actions of a few.

I see racism as a particular kind of prejudice, and where I live racism can even be a criminal offence.

From my experience; people who see racism in everything are usually racist themselves.

But just how deep is your experience?
Such people might be a bit fanatical about racism, but where I live racism is so dirty that we are mostly set against that.

And don't forget bigotries about class, wealth, IQ, many disabilities and more. Most folks would support a community without any such prejudices.

 

[PureX]

Over the years, I’ve heard many people say that we need to have an honest discussion about race in America, but when the people who say this get the discussion, I’ve found 100% of the time (not most of the time, not even 90%, but 100% of the time) it turns out these are the very people who do not want an honest discussion about race in America. What they want is to dictate their subjective views about race to everyone else, even to the point of offending others, but they do not want others dictating their subjective views at them; even even to a point that they might find offensive.
They want to express their views to others and have others listen to them, without giving input or disagreement, and they attempt to conflate this with having an honest discussion about race. This is not a discussion, this is dictation; this is indoctrination. Now if this is what you want, fine; just just say so! Say you want to dictate your subjective views about race on to others and just have them listen; and quit calling it a desire for an honest discussion, because that it is not.
Your thoughts?

One man's 'honesty' is another man's deceit. The problem with honesty is that a lot of the time we wouldn't recognize it if it bit us on the nose. We lie to ourselves all the time, and we believe our own lies. Especially about things like our own bigotry.

So we can never have that honest discussion, even though bigotry (not just racial, but also sexual, religious, philosophical, ethnic, and political) is tearing this and other nations apart right before our eyes. Bigotry combines with greed and resentment and fear to create a very potent and blinding drive in people. Discussion has no effect on it, really.

 

[Kfox]

If you witness a murder and don't come forward you are legally an accomplice are you not?

No you are not. But that isn't what we are talking about, it's like he's saying if you do not actively prevent future murders from taking place, (not just the ones you witness) you are a murderer. That is absurd.

If you allow racism you too are guilty of propagating racism.

To propagate is to assist. To sit back and do nothing is not assisting.

Go back and read the part you cut out and maybe you can work out why what you are saying is nonsense.

What are you talking about?

 

[Curious George]

No they don’t. Let me explain;

Do you believe all races have faced equal historic oppression?
All races have faced oppression. But equal oppression? That would be nearly impossible

IMHO, you seem to be suggesting that the difference is a mere technicality. Whether this is an effort towards pedantry, or evasion, it does not feel in the spirit of an "honest discussion."

Are you saying that it is "nearly impossible" for all races to be equal?

Do you believe all races have equally been impacted by the historic oppression they have faced?
Again’ equally impacted? Impossible.

Can you elaborate more? Can you explain how various races have been impacted by the historic oppression?

Do you believe that race, or the perception thereof, equally impacts people's lives today?
Some lives may be impacted, others not; again; not equal

When you say "some lives" i wonder if we have reached a problem with English. My question attempted to keep the subject people as a group. When you say "some lives," i am unsure whether you mean some races or some individuals. If you mean some individuals, i would like to clarify that my question referred to peoples not persons. If this is the case could you please answer again with thos clarification in mind. If you meant some races, could you please answer the second question of how we should address this inequality.

 

[Curious George]

If you witness a murder and don't come forward you are legally an accomplice are you not?

No, you are not legally an accomplice.

 

[Friend of Mara]

To propagate is to assist. To sit back and do nothing is not assisting.

To sit back is propagating.

What are you talking about?

I explained what white fragility was in a previous post. You cut that out of your response in the previous post and made claims that I had already shown were false. So either you didn't read it or you didn't understand it.

 

[metis]

I would offer that "From the Bahá’í perspective, racism is one of the most baneful and persistent evils in society. Racial discrimination is baneful because it violates the dignity of human beings.

The same is true in Christianity: Galatians 3[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Kooky]

I see a racist as a person who believes a race is either superior or inferior, they may also see a race as inherently wicked or bad, or they may judge an entire race due to the actions of a few. From my experience; people who see racism in everything are usually racist themselves.

Where did you get the idea from that Critical Race Theorists see one race as superior to another, or one race as wicked and bad?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The same is true in Christianity: Galatians 3[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yes, we just need to practice our oneness and find unity in our diversity.

Regards Tony

 

[Kfox]

I explained what white fragility was in a previous post. You cut that out of your response in the previous post and made claims that I had already shown were false. So either you didn't read it or you didn't understand it.

Is this what you were talking about?

Provocative but not racist. It isn't an inherent quality that she is ascribing to white people. White fragility was a term coined to go viral. Do you know what white fragility is in the context of her work? Is it about white people as a race? I'm curious because a lot of people don't understand it. For example in a country where white people are the minority and don't have disproportionate control could be argued to not have while fragility. Its basically the same phenomenon of class as well. For example there are people who are extremely wealthy that know, understand and admit that the reason they are so wealthy is by circumstance, luck or systematic powers. Then there are many extremely wealthy people who feel they deserved and earned all of the wealth they have. In this example it is the "wealth fragility" blinding them to the reality of their situation.


It is a description of the psychological phenomenon where people reject the notion that they were beneficiaries of anything other than their own efforts. This isn't a perfect example since soon as you get into the nitty gritty of nuance it gets complicated. But for this same reason I don't personally agree with her take as a simple phenomenon.

If so I will respond.


(quote)
Provocative but not racist. It isn't an inherent quality that she is ascribing to white people. White fragility was a term coined to go viral. Do you know what white fragility is in the context of her work? Is it about white people as a race? I'm curious because a lot of people don't understand it. For example in a country where white people are the minority and don't have disproportionate control could be argued to not have while fragility

(Reply)
White people disproportionate control? What does that even mean? You aren’t under the impression white people vote differently than everyone else are you? Whites do outnumber the rest of us, but the only way they can make that an advantage is if they all vote the same, and fight for the same issues; they don’t! No single race does this. Think about it; how many white people voted for Trump? How many white people hated Trump? How many support BLM? How many have disdain for it? How many support socialism, how many capitalism? White people are too diverse in thought and opinion’s to use their vast numbers to control anything. Whatever position white people are supporting, there are black and brown people supporting it as well.

(quote)
. Its basically the same phenomenon of class as well. For example there are people who are extremely wealthy that know, understand and admit that the reason they are so wealthy is by circumstance, luck or systematic powers. Then there are many extremely wealthy people who feel they deserved and earned all of the wealth they have

(reply)
No; some people are wealthy due to luck and circumstance, there there are others who are wealthy due to hard work, and they do deserve the wealth they have

(quote)
. In this example it is the "wealth fragility" blinding them to the reality of their situation.

(reply)
No this is an example of you judging and accusing people you know nothing about because they are wealthy

(quote)
It is a description of the psychological phenomenon where people reject the notion that they were beneficiaries of anything other than their own efforts. This isn't a perfect example since soon as you get into the nitty gritty of nuance it gets complicated. But for this same reason I don't personally agree with her take as a simple phenomenon.

(reply)
I think I’ve explained why she is wrong