We need to have an honest discussion about race in America

[Friend of Mara]

Is this what you were talking about?

Provocative but not racist. It isn't an inherent quality that she is ascribing to white people. White fragility was a term coined to go viral. Do you know what white fragility is in the context of her work? Is it about white people as a race? I'm curious because a lot of people don't understand it. For example in a country where white people are the minority and don't have disproportionate control could be argued to not have while fragility. Its basically the same phenomenon of class as well. For example there are people who are extremely wealthy that know, understand and admit that the reason they are so wealthy is by circumstance, luck or systematic powers. Then there are many extremely wealthy people who feel they deserved and earned all of the wealth they have. In this example it is the "wealth fragility" blinding them to the reality of their situation.


It is a description of the psychological phenomenon where people reject the notion that they were beneficiaries of anything other than their own efforts. This isn't a perfect example since soon as you get into the nitty gritty of nuance it gets complicated. But for this same reason I don't personally agree with her take as a simple phenomenon.

If so I will respond.

Sure. BTW [ quote ] and [ / quote ] without the spaces can clip quote parts in your post.

(quote)
Provocative but not racist. It isn't an inherent quality that she is ascribing to white people. White fragility was a term coined to go viral. Do you know what white fragility is in the context of her work? Is it about white people as a race? I'm curious because a lot of people don't understand it. For example in a country where white people are the minority and don't have disproportionate control could be argued to not have while fragility

(Reply)
White people disproportionate control? What does that even mean? You aren’t under the impression white people vote differently than everyone else are you? Whites do outnumber the rest of us, but the only way they can make that an advantage is if they all vote the same, and fight for the same issues; they don’t! No single race does this. Think about it; how many white people voted for Trump? How many white people hated Trump? How many support BLM? How many have disdain for it? How many support socialism, how many capitalism? White people are too diverse in thought and opinion’s to use their vast numbers to control anything. Whatever position white people are supporting, there are black and brown people supporting it as well.

You have conflated personality with status. A princess could be a socialist but she still benefits from her status as princess.

South Africa is the main cavate of minority with more power. White people undeniably have more power as a demographic in proportion to its population in that country. But white people living in Korea would not have the same white privilege. That is because white privilege isn't innate to white people but the structure of the society we live in.

(quote)
. Its basically the same phenomenon of class as well. For example there are people who are extremely wealthy that know, understand and admit that the reason they are so wealthy is by circumstance, luck or systematic powers. Then there are many extremely wealthy people who feel they deserved and earned all of the wealth they have

(reply)
No; some people are wealthy due to luck and circumstance, there there are others who are wealthy due to hard work, and they do deserve the wealth they have

No billionaires. Arguably no millionaires. I think that the services doctors provide are proportional to the wealth that they have for example. But the owner of a business makes millions a year but pays thousands of employees to do their work they didn't "earn it". It wasn't their efforts. Sure they put in quite a bit of work but it would have been impossible for them. Now if they dig a billion dollars wroth of gold out of a mountain by themselves maybe but if they hired workers to harvest it then it was not their personal achievement.

(quote)
. In this example it is the "wealth fragility" blinding them to the reality of their situation.

(reply)
No this is an example of you judging and accusing people you know nothing about because they are wealthy

I'm not saying anything about a wealthy person's character. I'm explaining their behavior with a term. Elon Musk didn't create the wealth he has. He has been the beneficiary of thousands of others as well as circumstance. Part of that process is his own talents and efforts but even those are only possible because of the aforementioned circumstances.

(quote)
It is a description of the psychological phenomenon where people reject the notion that they were beneficiaries of anything other than their own efforts. This isn't a perfect example since soon as you get into the nitty gritty of nuance it gets complicated. But for this same reason I don't personally agree with her take as a simple phenomenon.

(reply)
I think I’ve explained why she is wrong

So far you haven't even demonstrated you understand what she said much less explained why it is wrong.

 

[Kfox]

Where did you get the idea from that Critical Race Theorists see one race as superior to another, or one race as wicked and bad?

Based on the Book she wrote and the interviews she gave.

 

[Kfox]

You have conflated personality with status. A princess could be a socialist but she still benefits from her status as princess.

South Africa is the main cavate of minority with more power. White people undeniably have more power as a demographic in proportion to its population in that country. But white people living in Korea would not have the same white privilege. That is because white privilege isn't innate to white people but the structure of the society we live in.

I can’t speak for other countries, but in the USA we have white privilege, black privilege, brown privilege, male, female, gay, straight, privileges as well. No matter what it is about that makes you unique, there are areas where it will act as a privilege, and areas where it will be a detriment to you. To act as if white people have all of the privileges and the black or brown people only has the detriments is to ignore reality.

No billionaires. Arguably no millionaires. I think that the services doctors provide are proportional to the wealth that they have for example. But the owner of a business makes millions a year but pays thousands of employees to do their work they didn't "earn it". It wasn't their efforts. Sure they put in quite a bit of work but it would have been impossible for them. Now if they dig a billion dollars wroth of gold out of a mountain by themselves maybe but if they hired workers to harvest it then it was not their personal achievement.

Most company owners work longer hours, and will often work well into their 70’s and 80’s long after most workers have retired. Just because they don’t pick up a hammer does not mean they don’t work.

I'm not saying anything about a wealthy person's character. I'm explaining their behavior with a term. Elon Musk didn't create the wealth he has. He has been the beneficiary of thousands of others as well as circumstance. Part of that process is his own talents and efforts but even those are only possible because of the aforementioned circumstances.

Elon Musk started several companies that generated a lot of money. If it were not for him, those companies would not exist. He created wealth by starting the companies that generated the wealth.

So far you haven't even demonstrated you understand what she said much less explained why it is wrong.

What did I say about her that you disagree with?

 

[Friend of Mara]

I can’t speak for other countries, but in the USA we have white privilege, black privilege, brown privilege, male, female, gay, straight, privileges as well. No matter what it is about that makes you unique, there are areas where it will act as a privilege, and areas where it will be a detriment to you. To act as if white people have all of the privileges and the black or brown people only has the detriments it to ignore reality.

Sure. When that becomes statistically important we can address it. However in more or less every single measurable way there is a bias for white people in most western countries. Sure maybe the black guy has some kind of benefit for being black. However statistically they are doing worse because of their race than if they were white. When we have an issue with black women suddenly being the highest earning demographic with the lowest poverty rate and highest education levels we can see what kind of black privilege is giving us an issue.

Most company owners work longer hours, and will often work well into their 70’s and 80’s long after most workers have retired. Just because they don’t pick up a hammer does not mean they don’t work.

Elon Musk started several companies that generated a lot of money. If it were not for him, those companies would not exist. He created wealth by starting the companies that generated the wealth.

If other people are creating your vision then you didn't do it alone. No one can work hard enough to earn a billion dollars. You can exploit others labor to make a billion dollars.

What did I say about her that you disagree with?

All of it so far.

 

[Kfox]

Sure. When that becomes statistically important we can address it

Important to who? YOU? I’ve got a feeling it will never be important to you.

. However in more or less every single measurable way there is a bias for white people in most western countries. Sure maybe the black guy has some kind of benefit for being black.

IMO there are more benefits of being black in the USA than being white. All you gotta do is open your eyes.

However statistically they are doing worse because of their race than if they were white.

Are you sure it is because of their race? Are you sure it has nothing to do with culture? If race is holding black people back, why is it when blacks migrate from the Diaspora, (from Africa, Caribbeans, Bahamas, South America etc.) they out preform American decedents of slaves who have been here for multiple generations? Actually Nigerians immigrants outperform white Americans in education and income; they are actually on par with Asians, and if you look at their culture, Nigerian culture is similar to many of the Asian cultures as well! How come systemic racism doesn’t seem to have the effect on immigrants from the diaspora the way it has on ADOS?

If other people are creating your vision then you didn't do it alone. No one can work hard enough to earn a billion dollars

Using that logic that would be like saying it is impossible for anybody to make anything, after did they make the tools soil, or whatever was needed to make it? That’s ridicules. To create wealth means you are responsible for making it. The fact that you use tools created by someone else, or hired other people to help you put it together does not take away from the fact that if you did not put forth your effort, it would not have been created.,

. You can exploit others labor to make a billion dollars.

Musk has made more people rich than anyone else; who has he exploited?

 

[Curious George]

IMO there are more benefits of being black in the USA than being white. All you gotta do is open your eyes.

Can you expound this?

 

[Kfox]

Can you expound this?

Okay let’s say if you are black and you want to start your own business and you are having a hard time with whatever it is you are in business trying to do. There is a federal program called the “Minority business development agency” or the Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund was developed to promote the growth and development of black owned business. Obviously if you are white, this is not an option for you.
Federal government launches loan program for Black-owned businesses

Minority Business Development Agency

Let’s say you are a contractor in Chicago, and you are struggling with getting business, the “Black contractors association of Chicago” will network with you to get you business
https://www.bcoechicago.org/

Let’s say you live in California and you are a lawyer; the “Black lawyers of California” will help you when needed.
https://calblacklawyers.org/

Same thing with black nurses
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=black+nurses+association&fr=yfp-t-s&imgurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FilePath/National_Black_Nurses_Association_Logo.png#id=-1&iurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FilePath/National_Black_Nurses_Association_Logo.png&action=click

Black truck drivers
https://www.corporationwiki.com/Georgia/Atlanta/black-truckers-association-inc-6184604.aspx

I think you get the picture; pretty much every major city has something to promote black business. Obviously if you are white this is not an option for you. I see this as a black privilege

 

[Kooky]

I think you get the picture; pretty much every major city has something to promote black business. Obviously if you are white this is not an option for you. I see this as a black privilege

Have you considered that the massive discrimination and oppression of Black people throughout US history came with consequences to the situation of many Black people that linger to the current day?

How would you address these issues?

 

[Kfox]

Have you considered that the massive discrimination and oppression of Black people throughout US history came with consequences to the situation of many Black people that linger to the current day?

My Grandfather and Father were a part of the Montgomery bus boycott of 1955, my uncle was beaten and arrested because he and others sat in a (white only) diner and refused to leave. My family dealt with Jim Crow, the KKK and a host of other oppressions, and fought to change this country so I won’t have to go through what they went through. So I will be (darned) if I allow their struggle and their fight to become an excuse for my failures; they would turn over in their graves if I used the excuse that the consequences of their struggle still linger around to keep me behind. No thank-you I am not a victim; never has been, never will be.

How would you address these issues?

As they have been, and continue to be addressed

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If other people are creating your vision then you didn't do it alone. No one can work hard enough to earn a billion dollars. You can exploit others labor to make a billion dollars.

And that's basically the run of the mill billionaire. Even Bill Gates would have nothing without Steve Jobs and his first workers he didn't even pay.

 

[Kfox]

And that's basically the run of the mill billionaire. Even Bill Gates would have nothing without Steve Jobs and his first workers he didn't even pay.

What did Bill Gates and Steve Allan have to do with Steve Jobs? Are you saying Steve Jobs built Microsoft? And who were these workers he didn't pay?

 

[Kooky]

My Grandfather and Father were a part of the Montgomery bus boycott of 1955, my uncle was beaten and arrested because he and others sat in a (white only) diner and refused to leave. My family dealt with Jim Crow, the KKK and a host of other oppressions, and fought to change this country so I won’t have to go through what they went through. So I will be (darned) if I allow their struggle and their fight to become an excuse for my failures; they would turn over in their graves if I used the excuse that the consequences of their struggle still linger around to keep me behind. No thank-you I am not a victim; never has been, never will be.

How do you reconcile that with your belief that White people are being systematically disadvantaged?

Why do White people get these "excuses", as you put it, from you, but Black people don't?

As they have been, and continue to be addressed

You just complained that the way these issues are being addressed is racist towards White people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What did Bill Gates and Steve Allan have to do with Steve Jobs? Are you saying Steve Jobs built Microsoft? And who were these workers he didn't pay?

Bill Gates basically took what Steve Jobs built and changed it around some and slapped a new label on it.

 

[Kooky]

What did Bill Gates and Steve Allan have to do with Steve Jobs? Are you saying Steve Jobs built Microsoft? And who were these workers he didn't pay?

Bill Gates basically took what Steve Jobs built and changed it around some and slapped a new label on it.

I personally wouldn't put it so drastically, but yea - MS Windows in particular built upon Apple's LISA to a degree that I would argue only didn't lead to a substantial lawsuit because Apple's developers had themselves ripped off so much from the inventions of the Xerox PARC (such as the graphic, mouse-based GUI).

 

[Curious George]

Okay let’s say if you are black and you want to start your own business and you are having a hard time with whatever it is you are in business trying to do. There is a federal program called the “Minority business development agency” or the Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund was developed to promote the growth and development of black owned business. Obviously if you are white, this is not an option for you.
Federal government launches loan program for Black-owned businesses

Minority Business Development Agency

Let’s say you are a contractor in Chicago, and you are struggling with getting business, the “Black contractors association of Chicago” will network with you to get you business
https://www.bcoechicago.org/

Let’s say you live in California and you are a lawyer; the “Black lawyers of California” will help you when needed.
California Association of Black Lawyers

Same thing with black nurses
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=black+nurses+association&fr=yfp-t-s&imgurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FilePath/National_Black_Nurses_Association_Logo.png#id=-1&iurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FilePath/National_Black_Nurses_Association_Logo.png&action=click

Black truck drivers
https://www.corporationwiki.com/Georgia/Atlanta/black-truckers-association-inc-6184604.aspx

I think you get the picture; pretty much every major city has something to promote black business. Obviously if you are white this is not an option for you. I see this as a black privilege

I think we are working with different concepts of privilege. I imagine that the organizations, agencies, and programs to which you are referring exist to address racial disparity that is already present. I am not sure that one could call it "black privilege" to have access to paths that only exist because of current disparity.

Group privilege, as I understand it, can only be analyzed within a system as statistical data.

So, we cannot refer to individuals possessing some group privilege based on their membership in that group. Certainly individuals can reflect on their experiences and speculate how their membership in a group has impacted their experiences.

But regardless of whether to what you are referring qualifies as some group privilege, i do not see how some organizations and programs designed to address disparity make it such that "there are more benefits to being 'black' in the USA than 'white.'" Can you try to connect those dots for me?

 

[Friend of Mara]

Important to who? YOU? I’ve got a feeling it will never be important to you.

I don't care about your feelings. I care a lot about statistics and things that are relevant to society as a whole. It being looked down upon for white people to use the N word isn't as much of an issue as black communities having a fraction of the average family wealth of white families.

IMO there are more benefits of being black in the USA than being white. All you gotta do is open your eyes.

Then why isn't the economy dominated by black people? Why are people of color continually under preforming in the economy? Why are they disproportionally impoverished? Is it because of their biology or is it because of systematic issues?

Are you sure it is because of their race? Are you sure it has nothing to do with culture? If race is holding black people back, why is it when blacks migrate from the Diaspora, (from Africa, Caribbeans, Bahamas, South America etc.) they out preform American decedents of slaves who have been here for multiple generations? Actually Nigerians immigrants outperform white Americans in education and income; they are actually on par with Asians, and if you look at their culture, Nigerian culture is similar to many of the Asian cultures as well! How come systemic racism doesn’t seem to have the effect on immigrants from the diaspora the way it has on ADOS?

It has nothing to do with culture of a race. We can talk about the cycle of poverty which affects all races but that isn't a culture. You need to bring evidence that there is a cultural explanation for why there is disparity.

I love when people bring up the new immigrant statistic. Do you think the average citizens of those countries are the ones that immigrate? Weird how the successful and wealthier people of a country that have the resources to move do better on average than the people already living in poverty in the new location.

Using that logic that would be like saying it is impossible for anybody to make anything, after did they make the tools soil, or whatever was needed to make it? That’s ridicules. To create wealth means you are responsible for making it. The fact that you use tools created by someone else, or hired other people to help you put it together does not take away from the fact that if you did not put forth your effort, it would not have been created.,

Exactly. No one person did anything. They are part of the whole. And yet the economic prosperity is not as evenly distributed as the workload invested.

Musk has made more people rich than anyone else; who has he exploited?

Every single employee. They generate a thousand dollars worth of value and they get paid a dollar. Wages and employment is exploitation by definition.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Every single employee. They generate a thousand dollars worth of value and they get paid a dollar. Wages and employment is exploitation by definition.

If Musk can waste money launching a car into space he can pay his employees more.
He also rips the consumer off with Tesla's anti-consumer/anti-right to repair policies. AND subjects to public to testing his company's auto drive feature without knowledge ir consent.

 

[Kfox]

How do you reconcile that with your belief that White people are being systematically disadvantaged?

I didn't say white people are being systematically disadvantaged.

Why do White people get these "excuses", as you put it, from you, but Black people don't?

I didn't say white people get any excuses.

You just complained that the way these issues are being addressed is racist towards White people.

No I did not.

 

[Kfox]

Bill Gates basically took what Steve Jobs built and changed it around some and slapped a new label on it.

so your complaint is that rich people steal ideas from other rich people?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

so your complaint is that rich people steal ideas from other rich people?

Not even remotely. I've known a bunch of rich people. But they aren't Forbes 500 rich. I said billionaires, and I gave examples where they are not self made.