Well, at least We'll have a President Now...

[SomeRandom]

Hmm. Less realism, maybe.

I mean, I don’t blame you. US politics does seem unreal to me too.

 

[sun rise]

Health care maybe. Free university is insane

Tuition free is available. Besides all the sites that the marvelous invention called the internet finds, there's this:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/slideshows/tuition-free-colleges

 

[SomeRandom]

I grew up in a small, rural town with a group of 'kids', most of whom I hear are now Trump supporters. At least the friends I saw at my mother's funeral three years ago were. Strange as this might sound, most of them are 'ordinary people'. Not all that politically knowledgeable, but often bright, often kind, often considerate of others. There are, of course, plenty of unsavory types, too. Racists, bigots, misogynists, etc. But that should not blind us to the many who do not fit those categories.

I'm no expert on why a bright, kind, considerate person would support Trump, who would seem to me the polar opposite of a bright, kind, considerate person. But if I were forced to lay money on it -- forced to -- I'd guess they're scared. They're afraid. They fear.

Fearful people do all sorts of things, feel all sorts of things, think all sorts of things they would not do, feel, or think if they were not 'tripping' on fear. Fear can be like a drug -- you're not yourself when 'on' it.

Furthermore, I think -- but I cannot prove -- that the main source of their fears is the right wing media with its incessant 24/7 fear-mongering. In my opinion, the right wing media is one of the gravest current threats to our democracy.

I have seen people I know go from moderate conservative or even from mild liberal to right-wing radical extremists in just a few short years, and most evidently by tuning in Fox News for hours each day. In just a few years, they become fearful fools who can't tell a liberal from a communist, who know nothing about the left that isn't at least half parody, who are packed with misconceptions, simple-minded platitudes, and self-destructive idealism.

I used to read up on Cold War Soviet propaganda techniques as if I was a med student and propaganda techniques were pathogens, but I had no idea -- no real concrete idea -- what the effects of negative propaganda looked like until it began happening right here in America.

Great post, thanks. I think you hit the nail on the head with this part.

I think a key fact is that there are over 300 million Americans and most of them have things to do each day. Not everyone can dedicate hours and hours to the kind of education and fact-checking required to get a fully accurate picture of the world. We need reliable, informative sources of news.

The 24/7 fear-mongering from TV news, including both Fox News and OANN and Newsmax and Breitbart, is incredibly toxic. I would probably vote for Trump too, if I believed half of what those networks pedal was accurate. The world they describe is truly frightening and the liberals who inhabit it are cartoonishly evil. Unfortunately, MSNBC and CNN are not much better, in my opinion. Personally, I do not watch any TV news.

It’s a shame because anyone who listens to radio sports programming knows that the average American is perfectly capable of having a civilized, productive debate. The difference is that when you turn on ESPN they aren’t spreading lies and propaganda in favor of one particular team. Isn’t it a little ironic that our national sports discussions are more grounded in fact and reason than our political discussions? (Or am I being too generous in how I describe the sports discussions?)

I find this rather interesting.
I mean obviously every country has their propaganda masquerading as “news.”
Ours are typically presented in a sort of panel discussion form, so I mean the distinction isn’t that hard to figure out. And the hosts usually get on their soapbox.
But Americans seem to take this to a whole new level. The political commentators seem to use very loaded language. Purposely making the opponent’s argument into something seemingly otherworldly and crazy.
But if you are convinced by this, then your mind frame does become rather toxic and defensive. I was once very anti third wave feminism. But once I realised such thinking was affecting my day to day life, I sort of just snapped out of it. It was like breaking a spell, if you’ll excuse the hyperbole.

Since I’m not American, I probably lack a lot of context when I interact with political pundits/speakers. A lot of it is exposure from social media, so I dunno if that’s necessarily giving me the full picture. (Actually I kind of hope it’s not. Have you guys seen the “MAGA cope?”)
But I have noticed that when US political figures or pundits go onto news stations not in the US, they’re often like a deer in headlights. The questions are challenging for them, the journo (by law, usually has to) fact check literally everything they say and they seem unable to really engage meaningfully. I think that might be the difference between the US and even somewhere like the UK. There’s no softball questions. The hosts are expected to act professionally and leave their politics at the door. Even when they try to go easy on the guest, they often melt like a snowflake (see Ben Shapiro vs Andrew Neil, a hardline conservative himself.)
The result is that the host inevitably comes out looking like a professional having to handle a tantrum from their guest. And the guest comes across as someone unable to properly engage in political discussion as an adult. A little ironic given that that’s supposed to be their literal job, but whatever.
Not to say that doesn’t also happen to non US political speakers, of course.
But it’s usually more of an “even playing field.” Since they’re used to that sort of scrutiny and just push back. Usually. Politicians are politicians after all.

As an aside, I found it rather humorous (and a bit sad) to see Trumpers turn on Fox News when they had to declare Biden the winner. Fox News is apparently too liberal for some. Wtf?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Specific reference to the word "hate".

Indeed, “hate” from Trump. Look at what he said to four US Congresswomen of color, for example. He’s speaking to citizens of this country and duly elected representatives.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

One comes from a different planet, the other lives in some crazy alternate dimension complemented with unicorns, fairies, and pixie dust clamoring for an impossible utopian dreamland of their own making.

Last I checked, Biden exited his first 8 years in the WH with a strong economy and a dead Bin Laden. Wasn’t exactly a utopian dreamland - unless you compare it to 2020, after four years of Trump.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I find this rather interesting.
I mean obviously every country has their propaganda masquerading as “news.”
Ours are typically presented in a sort of panel discussion form, so I mean the distinction isn’t that hard to figure out. And the hosts usually get on their soapbox.
But Americans seem to take this to a whole new level. The political commentators seem to use very loaded language. Purposely making the opponent’s argument into something seemingly otherworldly and crazy.
But if you are convinced by this, then your mind frame does become rather toxic and defensive. I was once very anti third wave feminism. But once I realised such thinking was affecting my day to day life, I sort of just snapped out of it. It was like breaking a spell, if you’ll excuse the hyperbole.

Since I’m not American, I probably lack a lot of context when I interact with political pundits/speakers. A lot of it is exposure from social media, so I dunno if that’s necessarily giving me the full picture. (Actually I kind of hope it’s not. Have you guys seen the “MAGA cope?”)
But I have noticed that when US political figures or pundits go onto news stations not in the US, they’re often like a deer in headlights. The questions are challenging for them, the journo (by law, usually has to) fact check literally everything they say and they seem unable to really engage meaningfully. I think that might be the difference between the US and even somewhere like the UK. There’s no softball questions. The hosts are expected to act professionally and leave their politics at the door. Even when they try to go easy on the guest, they often melt like a snowflake (see Ben Shapiro vs Andrew Neil, a hardline conservative himself.)
The result is that the host inevitably comes out looking like a professional having to handle a tantrum from their guest. And the guest comes across as someone unable to properly engage in political discussion as an adult. A little ironic given that that’s supposed to be their literal job, but whatever.
Not to say that doesn’t also happen to non US political speakers, of course.
But it’s usually more of an “even playing field.” Since they’re used to that sort of scrutiny and just push back. Usually. Politicians are politicians after all.

As an aside, I found it rather humorous (and a bit sad) to see Trumpers turn on Fox News when they had to declare Biden the winner. Fox News is apparently too liberal for some. Wtf?

As an American, from my perspective, you are 100% correct. Yes the US news media takes it to another level, in terms of characterizing their opponents as otherworldly. You put it well. When I watch the BBC or the UK Parliament, I find it incredibly refreshing, hard-hitting, professional and cannot imagine many American politicians standing up to that kind of scrutiny (although, I do think some of them can).

I will say that there is a tiny level of politeness and camaraderie in the US Congress that I wouldn’t want to change. Sometimes, especially in the US Senate, and on the Sunday morning political talk shows, there is a welcome reasonableness and professional debate that is achieved. For example, Senator Klobuchar asked good questions during the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings without assuming he was guilty. Senator Collins gave a good speech (whether you agree with her, or not) about why she voted to confirm Kavanaugh. And Mitt Romney gave a good analysis of the impeachment trial and explanation of why he voted to impeach Trump. Unfortunately, the worst of US politics, not the best, gets all the attention.

And there is also a tiny level of rudeness and personal attacks in the UK political discourse, that I don’t envy.

But those are nuances. Overall, you are right. You aren’t biased because you aren’t American. As an American, I think you have accurately seen from the outside our political discourse for the horrendous dumpster fire that it is, I’m sad to say.

But there are bright spots. I refuse to lose hope. Trump did lose decisively, after all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Last I checked, Biden exited his first 8 years in the WH with a strong economy and a dead Bin Laden. Wasn’t exactly a utopian dreamland - unless you compare it to 2020, after four years of Trump.

The economy was never strong save for the one percenters who are doing better than it ever was. I guess it depends on how the utopian dreamland is being precieved.

Biden is one of them. A multi millionaire, making this particular choice as a leader a real head scratcher as to how in anybody's sane mind, he will by some unforseen maricle, watch out for the common interests working people are seeking.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But if you are convinced by this, then your mind frame does become rather toxic and defensive.

Something interesting that I have realized: many Americans who watch these hate-mongering shows, like Sean Hannity, know perfectly well that it is not objective. They know Hannity and others will portray the opposition in the worst light possible. But they enjoy it. It’s a bit of a guilty pleasure.

Importantly: a significant number of conservatives I know who watch Fox News (or Breitbart or OANN) - not all, but a fair number - freely acknowledge its conservative bias and even its truth-altering tendencies. But, they believe they are immune from being influenced by the bias they expose themselves to.

They think they can tell the difference between the half-truths, and the actual truths; between a fair criticism of the Left, and an outlandish caricature. So, with that disclaimer, they enjoy it as a form of entertainment.

But, in my experience, they can’t actually tell the difference. The drumbeat has an effect on them, whether they know it or not. Like a smoker, they think they are in control of what they believe, but the thing they put into their bodies - or their minds, in this case - is exerting more control than they realize. It’s the same mistake people make when they think advertising and commercials have no effect on them. Yes they do.

That’s why I think there’s a concept of keeping good intellectual “hygiene”, which should be adopted. Garbage in, garbage out, if you will - but for the mind. It’s good to entertain different views but it’s foolish to think an hour of Hannity plus an hour of Tucker every night, for years, won’t bend your reality.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The economy was never strong save for the one percenters who are doing better than it ever was. I guess it depends on how the utopian dreamland is being precieved.

Biden is one of them. A multi millionaire, making this particular choice as a leader a real head scratcher as to how in anybody's sane mind, he will by some unforseen maricle, watch out for the common interests working people are seeking.

You can disagree with Biden. Some people are liberal, others are conservative. Disagreement is reasonable. But Trump is the one from a different planet. The man’s own advisors and generals and now Attorney General have essentially admitted the stuff he says is bonkers - that’s no longer debatable among reasonable minds.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

I don't much care for Mr. Biden's neoliberal, corporate Democrat politics, but today he not only led by example -- getting a vaccine on national television -- but he also graciously credited the current administration's efforts to get the vaccine up and running in the first place. In short, whatever else Mr. Biden might be, he acts like a leader.

Damn his politics, but at least we will soon have a president now.


Biden receives the coronavirus vaccine.

Of course he could have been injected with water, who would know?

 

[SomeRandom]

As an American, from my perspective, you are 100% correct. Yes the US news media takes it to another level, in terms of characterizing their opponents as otherworldly. You put it well. When I watch the BBC or the UK Parliament, I find it incredibly refreshing, hard-hitting, professional and cannot imagine many American politicians standing up to that kind of scrutiny (although, I do think some of them can).

I will say that there is a tiny level of politeness and camaraderie in the US Congress that I wouldn’t want to change. Sometimes, especially in the US Senate, and on the Sunday morning political talk shows, there is a welcome reasonableness and professional debate that is achieved. For example, Senator Klobuchar asked good questions during the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings without assuming he was guilty. Senator Collins gave a good speech (whether you agree with her, or not) about why she voted to confirm Kavanaugh. And Mitt Romney gave a good analysis of the impeachment trial and explanation of why he voted to impeach Trump. Unfortunately, the worst of US politics, not the best, gets all the attention.

And there is also a tiny level of rudeness and personal attacks in the UK political discourse, that I don’t envy.

But those are nuances. Overall, you are right. You aren’t biased because you aren’t American. As an American, I think you have accurately seen from the outside our political discourse for the horrendous dumpster fire that it is, I’m sad to say.

But there are bright spots. I refuse to lose hope. Trump did lose decisively, after all.

I wonder if this is the difference between the more “black and white” approach to free speech the US has in comparison to other nations. Obviously we all have free speech, with reasonable limitations. But the US seems to regard journalists not being able to put their own “spin” on things as restrictive speech. Or even compelled speech.
Then you have sometimes more stringent rules governing journalism in general and you end up with the BBC or even the ABC. Drama fluff pieces like A Current Affairs notwithstanding.

I find politics in general to be nothing but a bunch of suits arguing and scoffing at each other. Then the moderator or whoever bangs down the gavel and has to reign them all in. I wonder if it’s all just showmanship. But that’s how parliament (Aus) just is, really. Sometimes it was amusing to watch. Because here it would get broadcast just before the after school programs. So I sometimes caught some of what’s called “parliament time” whilst waiting for the kids/teen lineup. I can’t speak to how the US congress is run. Maybe it’s just the same. Suits going back and forth in spirited debate. I dunno, we only get the news portions.

Trump for me is like politics to the extreme. By that I mean, I can get into political scraps with family. But usually I’m drunk when I do so. And then we have dinner and a laugh. It’s all forgotten, at least by me lol

With Trump it’s like that spirited sport is gone. Instead it’s like arguing with a super fan of their favourite team. Someone who refuses to see any of their flaws or willing to take an olive branch. I might be wrong but I never got that sense with pre Trump republicans. (Well maybe the evangelical kind, idk.) And no I’m not talking about here, it’s generally pretty zen compared to the rest of the wilds of the internet.
Like you guys argue. That’s just sport. But it was about policies. Actually citing (even if incorrectly) the political decisions of both parties and arguing their merits or detriments.
It wasn’t just about “owning your opponent.” Though that was an element of the fun. Now that’s all anyone seems to care about.
Does that make sense?

Also, was it a decisive win by Biden. I get the impression it was closer than most were predicting. Though I know you guys have the option to vote whereas we have to at least tick our names off. So maybe I just got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Sunstone]

Of course he could have been injected with water, who would know?

I can see why you list your religion as "unsure".

 

[SomeRandom]

Something interesting that I have realized: many Americans who watch these hate-mongering shows, like Sean Hannity, know perfectly well that it is not objective. They know Hannity and others will portray the opposition in the worst light possible. But they enjoy it. It’s a bit of a guilty pleasure.

Importantly: a significant number of conservatives I know who watch Fox News (or Breitbart or OANN) - not all, but a fair number - freely acknowledge its conservative bias and even its truth-altering tendencies. But, they believe they are immune from being influenced by the bias they expose themselves to.

They think they can tell the difference between the half-truths, and the actual truths; between a fair criticism of the Left, and an outlandish caricature. So, with that disclaimer, they enjoy it as a form of entertainment.

But, in my experience, they can’t actually tell the difference. The drumbeat has an effect on them, whether they know it or not. Like a smoker, they think they are in control of what they believe, but the thing they put into their bodies - or their minds, in this case - is exerting more control than they realize. It’s the same mistake people make when they think advertising and commercials have no effect on them. Yes they do.

That’s why I think there’s a concept of keeping good intellectual “hygiene”, which should be adopted. Garbage in, garbage out, if you will - but for the mind. It’s good to entertain different views but it’s foolish to think an hour of Hannity plus an hour of Tucker every night, for years, won’t bend your reality.

I guess you’re right.
I succumbed to a lot of propaganda, whilst also convinced that I was only watching for the spectacle.
I was convinced that because I had learnt about logical fallacies and how to hold someone to account, that I would do the same. I didn’t and I slowly started to just accept without thinking what I was being told. And something about the rhetoric made me angry though I couldn’t explain why. It was, after all, just a bit of fun.
It did make me all the more vigilant afterwards though. Leaving that sort of mindset was actually rather liberating. Like I could finally think like an adult for a change. Though I’m afraid I probably still fail on that front

 

[Sunstone]

Something interesting that I have realized: many Americans who watch these hate-mongering shows, like Sean Hannity, know perfectly well that it is not objective. They know Hannity and others will portray the opposition in the worst light possible. But they enjoy it. It’s a bit of a guilty pleasure.

Importantly: a significant number of conservatives I know who watch Fox News (or Breitbart or OANN) - not all, but a fair number - freely acknowledge its conservative bias and even its truth-altering tendencies. But, they believe they are immune from being influenced by the bias they expose themselves to.

They think they can tell the difference between the half-truths, and the actual truths; between a fair criticism of the Left, and an outlandish caricature. So, with that disclaimer, they enjoy it as a form of entertainment.

But, in my experience, they can’t actually tell the difference. The drumbeat has an effect on them, whether they know it or not. Like a smoker, they think they are in control of what they believe, but the thing they put into their bodies - or their minds, in this case - is exerting more control than they realize. It’s the same mistake people make when they think advertising and commercials have no effect on them. Yes they do.

That’s why I think there’s a concept of keeping good intellectual “hygiene”, which should be adopted. Garbage in, garbage out, if you will - but for the mind. It’s good to entertain different views but it’s foolish to think an hour of Hannity plus an hour of Tucker every night, for years, won’t bend your reality.

Good points! I quite agree, Spinks. You might be interested to know -- if you don't already -- of a study that was done ages ago on medical doctors. The doctors were surveyed for their views on whether drug company salespersons were unduly influencing the drugs they prescribed. A significant number of doctors pointed to their educations, their analytic training, and essentially scoffed at the idea that the salespeople could 'trick' them into unnecessarily prescribing drugs.

Their prescription histories were then tallied and the doctors in the "I'm uninfluenced" group were compared to a control group of doctors who had not been 'pitched' by any salesperson for a specific drug. The upshot was the doctors who'd been pitched by salespeople for a specific drug were shown to prescribe that drug much more often than the doctors who had not been pitched for that drug.

Now, of course, the study is only suggestive, and not conclusive, but...

Doctors! I mean, if it's possible that even people with the superior analytic skills of doctors can be influenced by sales pitches, who might be left immune?

I think you're right -- we need to learn to practice intellectual hygiene.

 

[Audie]

Indeed, “hate” from Trump. Look at what he said to four US Congresswomen of color, for example. He’s speaking to citizens of this country and duly elected representatives.

View attachment 46290

A lot of people like a man who talks straight.

Some are horrified.

Some might think nothing said about the orange man is racist
coz only his race can be racist.

Those same think that anything said about a "person of color"
is racist hate speech, coz they are all like endanged species.

Anyone BTW who dares to call me a person of color, still
less anything "intersectional" bettrr catch me in one of my
(rare) good moods.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

A lot of people like a man who talks straight.

Some are horrified.

Some might think nothing said about the orange man is racist
coz only his race can be racist.

Those same think that anything said about a "person of color"
is racist hate speech, coz they are all like endanged species.

Anyone BTW who dares to call me a person of color, still
less anything "intersectional" bettrr catch me in one of my
(rare) good moods.

Thanks, Audie. I think you misunderstood my post.

Trump was not talking straight. He was telling elected representatives of Congress that they have no business weighing in on how the United States government should be run. This is a bizarre statement. That is their job, as Congresswomen. Their constituents voted for them to do precisely that.

Also, what he said was a personal attack on these women. He did not defend his policies. He did not criticize their policies. He offered nothing constructive. He was just hurling personal insults and insinuating that these women should “go back to their countries”, when the US is their country. That is not straight talk. It’s just hate.

Are you really defending what he said?

 

[sojourner]

"Class" and "leadership" are not the same thing, but they are often enough seen mixed together in the public persona (at least) of presidents. It's no cause for joy or happiness, but only sorrow, that this country has suffered four years with a 'president' that neither had class nor was a generally competent leader.

And that’s the best that can be said about him. He has polarized this nation to a dangerous degree, he has normalized racism, misogyny, and ideological entitlement. He has fostered radicalization. He has lied, cheated, and stolen from the Oval Office. He has used this nation to his own benefit. He has jeopardized foreign relations. He has used the military to attack law abiding citizens. He has trespassed, he has undermined faith in the democratic process, he has politicized the judicial system. He neglected the COVID pandemic and highly politicized masking, which could have prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths. Shall I go on? I’m not given to religious fundamentalism, but I’m convinced this man is evil incarnate. If you want to see the Devil, you only need to look at Trump.

 

[Audie]

Thanks, Audie. I think you misunderstood my post.

Trump was not talking straight. He was telling elected representatives of Congress that they have no business weighing in on how the United States government should be run. This is a bizarre statement. That is their job, as Congresswomen. Their constituents voted for them to do precisely that.

Also, what he said was a personal attack on these women. He did not defend his policies. He did not criticize their policies. He offered nothing constructive. He was just hurling personal insults and insinuating that these women should “go back to their countries”, when the US is their country. That is not straight talk. It’s just hate.

Are you really defending what he said?

No , he is a jerk of the first water, imo.

However, its little in comparison to what is said
about him.

Go back where came from...if you choose to
call it hate, its your privilege. Does notmake it
so.

I'm sure you understand the feeling of someone, anyone, who perceives that a
newcomer trying to upset the applecart.

That is not hate.

The style of Trump is very professional wrestling. Crude, vulgar, utterly lacking
in nuance. Lots of fakersy. Or so it feels to me.

Your truck driver, Nascar guys seem to see it
as plain straight talking, and that makes sense to me.

It does not make them bad people anymore
than the snooty air of people who scorn
flyover country and etc are bad people because
some see them that way.

From over here that seething hate I see in America
is for Trump. The reasons for it
look mostly either trumped up by dishonest
reporting, or visceral matters related to his style,
making him a target for those who wish to, to project
their own issues. Goes for Trump
haters and backers equally.

Other than that, I think"tacist" "liar" and " hate", pure or
otherwise need to be defined way down for them to qualify
for all the calumny.

I hope when he is gone all of you, left and right
can start drifting back to sanity, none of you
seem to have both oars in the water these days.

I keep hearing how he is misogynistic.
So I looked it up yesterday. He made
comments on Hillary physical appearance.
That was given as a prime example.

Tacky, sure. To me Hillary is hideous, very
hard to look at.

Misogyny tho? Ridiculous.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Obama has the perception of having poise, grace and dignity

It's called having good PR and good speechwriters.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I keep hearing how he is misogynistic.
So I looked it up yesterday. He made
comments on Hillary physical appearance.
That was given as a prime example.

Tacky, sure. To me Hillary is hideous, very
hard to look at.

Misogyny tho? Ridiculous.

There is of course far more than that. There was his talk of sexually assaulting married women and getting away with it because he is rich. Have you heard his "Grab them by the p@ssy" tape? Bragging about being able to walk into changing areas where underaged girls would be half naked or even naked because he ran the Miss Universe and Miss Teen USA, Miss Universe and Miss USA tournaments. Cheating on his wives while they were pregnant. Paying off the women that he cheated with. And a halfway credible rape charge.

I worried more about how his fiscal policies were affecting America. Under Obama as our economy improved our deficit spending went down. That should have continued under Trump, instead our deficit went up. The tax cut for the wealthy was leaving a bill that the poor would have to pay later. Even before the Covid Pandemic we were under threat of a new recession.