We're all (mostly) dogmatic... Only few admit it while others call it faith or science.

[dianaiad]

I can see we are not getting anywhere, you have your belief there is a god in the sky and I don't, all I do know that we have seen far into the cosmos, but no one has seen anything of god.........lets leave it at that, but thanks for the conversation.

Indeed, I have my belief in a deity, and the only claim I have made is that I actually believe in one. You made a claim that there absolutely, positively, isn't one and so it is a fact that there isn't one, and you can prove it.

But you don't prove it, and then make fun of me because I believe in a 'god in the sky."


psychoslice, I don't think you see the point of this, at all. Ah, well.

 

[psychoslice]

Indeed, I have my belief in a deity, and the only claim I have made is that I actually believe in one. You made a claim that there absolutely, positively, isn't one and so it is a fact that there isn't one, and you can prove it.

But you don't prove it, and then make fun of me because I believe in a 'god in the sky."


psychoslice, I don't think you see the point of this, at all. Ah, well.

Yea, like trying to prove there are fairy's in my garden.

 

[dianaiad]

Yea, like trying to prove there are fairy's in my garden.

Do you think there are fairies in your garden? Wow.

psychoslice, you really AREN'T getting the point here. I'm sorry.

 

[psychoslice]

Do you think there are fairies in your garden? Wow.

psychoslice, you really AREN'T getting the point here. I'm sorry.

And of course you are. ha, all you want to be is right, where I don't really care, it means nothing to me, but if it makes you happy.......well we will say your right.

 

[psychoslice]

Hi Dianaiad said, sorry I should not have said that, but lets say that your god does exist, a god that you cannot prove, can I ask what else do you know about this god, not counting the words of scripture, because there are so many variation of what god is by many other scriptures, and who's scripture is right or wrong, and if yours is the right one then why ?.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Ah....but is it true?

As my old headmaster used to say, "If the cap fits, wear it." Look closely and honestly at your own beliefs and see what lies behind them. Have you the courage to do this?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yea, like trying to prove there are fairy's in my garden.

Here is one I snapped earlier, but I think she'd been on the Guinness.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi Dianaiad said, sorry I should not have said that, but lets say that your god does exist, a god that you cannot prove, can I ask what else do you know about this god, not counting the words of scripture, because there are so many variation of what god is by many other scriptures, and who's scripture is right or wrong, and if yours is the right one then why ?.

psychoslice, I didn't enter this conversation to prove that my beliefs about god are 'true,' by gum. I didn't make any claim at all about the existence of one except that I believe one exists. My reasons for believing in one are only relevant if I had made a claim that there WAS one. I didn't do that, and you aren't going to deflect the conversation away from the point by trying to get me to defend a claim I didn't make. Suffice it to say that my reasons for believing are my reasons, I don't expect that they would convince you, or indeed, anybody but me. That's why I don't make claims like 'God exists, that's a fact and I can prove it." God either exists or He (or She or It) doesn't. If one does, then it is a fact that one does. If one doesn't, then it's a fact that one doesn't, whether any of us have an opinion about it or not. I can't prove it to you empirically. I don't have to in order to continue to believe myself, nor do I have to justify my belief to anybody else in order to continue to believe myself.

My point...and it is a simple one...is that you are the one who made a claim. It was a definite, absolute and er...dogmatic...claim. "There is no god...that's a fact...I can prove it."

YOU said that, I didn't. Do you understand the difference between "I don't believe in the existence of a deity because I haven't seen any evidence to support one," and 'I can prove the fact that there is no God?" The first is a reasonable stance to take and a reasonable and logical statement to make. The second is a claim you have just put yourself in a pickle over; your burden of proof.

 

[dianaiad]

As my old headmaster used to say, "If the cap fits, wear it." Look closely and honestly at your own beliefs and see what lies behind them. Have you the courage to do this?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens

Rick O'Shez, I've been a Mormon for 67 years. I've not always been a TBM (True Believing Mormon). I spent quite a bit of time on the atheist side of the spectrum. I know precisely why I believe what I believe. I know all the history, warts and all. I doubt that there is anything a critic of Mormonism can come up with that I haven't looked at, examined, and found an answer for, for myself.

What makes you think I have not examined my own beliefs? Are you figuring that the only people who have are those who don't have any?

 

[dianaiad]

Here is one I snapped earlier, but I think she'd been on the Guinness.

Nice. That outfit isn't really good for gamboling in the garden, mind you, and the skull in the hat band is a bit off putting, but hey. Other than that she looks a bit like my niece, red hair and all. Mind you, NO woman has legs that long, so one can tell a man drew this. Yeah, I can see this one frolicking around in a man's dream garden, wishing with everything in her that her arms were a little longer and her wings were a tad bit bigger so that she could properly clobber the guy who thought her up....

 

[psychoslice]

psychoslice, I didn't enter this conversation to prove that my beliefs about god are 'true,' by gum. I didn't make any claim at all about the existence of one except that I believe one exists. My reasons for believing in one are only relevant if I had made a claim that there WAS one. I didn't do that, and you aren't going to deflect the conversation away from the point by trying to get me to defend a claim I didn't make. Suffice it to say that my reasons for believing are my reasons, I don't expect that they would convince you, or indeed, anybody but me. That's why I don't make claims like 'God exists, that's a fact and I can prove it." God either exists or He (or She or It) doesn't. If one does, then it is a fact that one does. If one doesn't, then it's a fact that one doesn't, whether any of us have an opinion about it or not. I can't prove it to you empirically. I don't have to in order to continue to believe myself, nor do I have to justify my belief to anybody else in order to continue to believe myself.

My point...and it is a simple one...is that you are the one who made a claim. It was a definite, absolute and er...dogmatic...claim. "There is no god...that's a fact...I can prove it."

YOU said that, I didn't. Do you understand the difference between "I don't believe in the existence of a deity because I haven't seen any evidence to support one," and 'I can prove the fact that there is no God?" The first is a reasonable stance to take and a reasonable and logical statement to make. The second is a claim you have just put yourself in a pickle over; your burden of proof.

Ok then, I say there is no god and you say there is, all I am saying is that there has never been proof of a god, so therefore I am pretty safe in saying there is no god, proof or no proof, its that simple.

 

[dianaiad]

Ok then, I say there is no god and you say there is, all I am saying is that there has never been proof of a god, so therefore I am pretty safe in saying there is no god, proof or no proof, its that simple.

(grin) Oh, you can safely say anything you like, psychoslice. I can safely say that Jove, Vishnu and Odin are in the habit of meeting in the back parlor of O'Riley's for a pint and a 'those were the good old days" session every Saturday night. Doesn't make it fact, though.

psychoslice, I'm sorry. I've been giving you a very hard time about this, and I probably shouldn't be. You are entitled to your opinion regarding the non-existence of deity, just as I am entitled to my opinion that there is one. You can certainly, and logically, claim that your personal conclusion that there is no god is based upon the fact (and here is where that word actually IS appropriate) that you have seen no evidence to support the existence of one.

My objection here isn't to your belief that there is no god. Really; it's not. Until and unless you see evidence that convinces you that there is one, it is perfectly reasonable of you to figure that there probably isn't.

MY objection is to the way you presented that opinion; as FACT, by cracky, and that you could prove it. My objection isn't to your conclusion; it's to the fact that you presented your conclusion as fact and claimed to be able to prove it............and then refused to do so. You turned around and attacked ME, instead, insisting that I had to prove that there IS a God. That's not logical. First, I didn't claim that it is a FACT that there is one. I didn't make a claim, in other words. Second..suppose that I could not prove that my idea of God is "true." HOW DOES THAT PROVE THAT THERE IS NO GOD????

Hint: it doesn't. There are as many ideas about deity as there are people who believe in one. You would have to go around disproving every single one of those ideas in order to support your own claim, and even then it wouldn't do the job; God could exist in a manner nobody has thought up yet.

In my opinion, claiming that it is a FACT that there is no god is simply opening yourself up to precisely the sort of thing that theists get when THEY claim that there IS one, by George, and if you don't believe in that specific idea of one, you are going straight to hell. I've seen theists, constantly, claim that non-believers refuse to believe because they are naturally sinners, afraid of leaving their worldly lives behind...they simply will not acknowledge that most of the time, non-believers don't REFUSE to believe; they just don't. Believe, that is.

It has been said right here on this thread that the reasons theists hold to an idea of god is because they are afraid of the truth. Has it ever occurred to any of you that the reason theists believe as they do is because they honestly think they HAVE the truth? "Fear" has nothing to do with it.
It certainly plays no part in my own beliefs.

There was a time when I thought that perhaps your own view of the cosmos was the correct one; that we are all simply a part of it, and we are the way the universe chose to learn about itself. Now THAT was a comforting thought...this idea that we are all actually 'ONE" with the universe, and that our selves and our experiences are part of the whole thing, however minuscule a part that might be.

But nah....I have a different view of God that I like better; that I believe more.

.......and even though I belong to a very missionary minded church, and was a full time missionary myself, and WILL teach my beliefs to anybody who shows the teensiest bit of interest (in the proper venue, which this isn't), I would never come on to a debate forum like this one and make a statement as arrogant as the one you made. Should I ever do that, I would absolutely deserve the wall of bricks that would fall on me.

 

[psychoslice]

(grin) Oh, you can safely say anything you like, psychoslice. I can safely say that Jove, Vishnu and Odin are in the habit of meeting in the back parlor of O'Riley's for a pint and a 'those were the good old days" session every Saturday night. Doesn't make it fact, though.

psychoslice, I'm sorry. I've been giving you a very hard time about this, and I probably shouldn't be. You are entitled to your opinion regarding the non-existence of deity, just as I am entitled to my opinion that there is one. You can certainly, and logically, claim that your personal conclusion that there is no god is based upon the fact (and here is where that word actually IS appropriate) that you have seen no evidence to support the existence of one.

My objection here isn't to your belief that there is no god. Really; it's not. Until and unless you see evidence that convinces you that there is one, it is perfectly reasonable of you to figure that there probably isn't.

MY objection is to the way you presented that opinion; as FACT, by cracky, and that you could prove it. My objection isn't to your conclusion; it's to the fact that you presented your conclusion as fact and claimed to be able to prove it............and then refused to do so. You turned around and attacked ME, instead, insisting that I had to prove that there IS a God. That's not logical. First, I didn't claim that it is a FACT that there is one. I didn't make a claim, in other words. Second..suppose that I could not prove that my idea of God is "true." HOW DOES THAT PROVE THAT THERE IS NO GOD????

Hint: it doesn't. There are as many ideas about deity as there are people who believe in one. You would have to go around disproving every single one of those ideas in order to support your own claim, and even then it wouldn't do the job; God could exist in a manner nobody has thought up yet.

In my opinion, claiming that it is a FACT that there is no god is simply opening yourself up to precisely the sort of thing that theists get when THEY claim that there IS one, by George, and if you don't believe in that specific idea of one, you are going straight to hell. I've seen theists, constantly, claim that non-believers refuse to believe because they are naturally sinners, afraid of leaving their worldly lives behind...they simply will not acknowledge that most of the time, non-believers don't REFUSE to believe; they just don't. Believe, that is.

It has been said right here on this thread that the reasons theists hold to an idea of god is because they are afraid of the truth. Has it ever occurred to any of you that the reason theists believe as they do is because they honestly think they HAVE the truth? "Fear" has nothing to do with it.
It certainly plays no part in my own beliefs.

There was a time when I thought that perhaps your own view of the cosmos was the correct one; that we are all simply a part of it, and we are the way the universe chose to learn about itself. Now THAT was a comforting thought...this idea that we are all actually 'ONE" with the universe, and that our selves and our experiences are part of the whole thing, however minuscule a part that might be.

But nah....I have a different view of God that I like better; that I believe more.

.......and even though I belong to a very missionary minded church, and was a full time missionary myself, and WILL teach my beliefs to anybody who shows the teensiest bit of interest (in the proper venue, which this isn't), I would never come on to a debate forum like this one and make a statement as arrogant as the one you made. Should I ever do that, I would absolutely deserve the wall of bricks that would fall on me.

Yes I understand all, that you said,I was once a Christian for many years and I also believed in a personal god, but as time went by I started to think for myself and finally came to the conclusion there is no personal god, that God is all there is, it just made sense to me.

I realized that the belief of a personal god was childish and was only covering up a deep fear which many believers in a personal god have, maybe not you but many. We could go on and on about all this rubbish, and in the end it really doesn't matter, its just my belief and your belief and that is where it really ends.

So you can believe in whatever you want, but just like anyone who believes in anything that goes against known facts, that is facts that are known to be true, then I will say your belief is just that a belief with no facts or proven truth, after all if we were here right now arguing over fairies and unicorns that cannot be proven or disproved, then what would you expect me to say, its no different and you know that, and for me to say that they don't exist isn't being arrogant at all, surely you can see that ?.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes I understand all, that you said,I was once a Christian for many years and I also believed in a personal god, but as time went by I started to think for myself and finally came to the conclusion there is no personal god, that God is all there is, it just made sense to me.

I realized that the belief of a personal god was childish and was only covering up a deep fear which many believers in a personal god have, maybe not you but many. We could go on and on about all this rubbish, and in the end it really doesn't matter, its just my belief and your belief and that is where it really ends.

That is precisely right, psychoslice. "Knowledge" and "proof" are very narrow and precise words. Shoot, man...we don't even KNOW that the sun is shining right now. We only know...and can only prove, that it was shining around 8 minutes ago. The problem I have with discussions such as these is that there is a bit of a double standard going on. That is, those on your side of the aisle require proof to the level of 'prove the sun is shining right now," that there is a deity, but they feel that the standard of proof for their own position, that there is not, is reached simply because they haven't found that level of evidence FOR a god.

It makes me tired.

So you can believe in whatever you want, but just like anyone who believes in anything that goes against known facts, that is facts that are known to be true,

What facts?

then I will say your belief is just that a belief with no facts or proven truth, after all if we were here right now arguing over fairies and unicorns that cannot be proven or disproved, then what would you expect me to say, its no different and you know that, and for me to say that they don't exist isn't being arrogant at all, surely you can see that ?.

Oh, no; your saying that you don't believe that there is a god is not arrogant. Your personal conviction that there isn't, and your SAYING so, is not arrogant.

The arrogance is in your claim that because you are satisfied in your own opinion, that that opinion becomes fact and anybody who doesn't agree with it is claiming things akin to fairies and unicorns.

BTW, unicorns DO exist...or did. The bible mentions them, (not that the bible mentioning them is iron clad proof, mind you; the bible ALSO says that bats are birds and hares chew their cuds) and it seems that they were talking about, oh....rhinos, perhaps?

Something like that, anyway.

 

[psychoslice]

That is precisely right, psychoslice. "Knowledge" and "proof" are very narrow and precise words. Shoot, man...we don't even KNOW that the sun is shining right now. We only know...and can only prove, that it was shining around 8 minutes ago. The problem I have with discussions such as these is that there is a bit of a double standard going on. That is, those on your side of the aisle require proof to the level of 'prove the sun is shining right now," that there is a deity, but they feel that the standard of proof for their own position, that there is not, is reached simply because they haven't found that level of evidence FOR a god.

It makes me tired.



What facts?



Oh, no; your saying that you don't believe that there is a god is not arrogant. Your personal conviction that there isn't, and your SAYING so, is not arrogant.

The arrogance is in your claim that because you are satisfied in your own opinion, that that opinion becomes fact and anybody who doesn't agree with it is claiming things akin to fairies and unicorns.

BTW, unicorns DO exist...or did. The bible mentions them, (not that the bible mentioning them is iron clad proof, mind you; the bible ALSO says that bats are birds and hares chew their cuds) and it seems that they were talking about, oh....rhinos, perhaps?

Something like that, anyway.

You do use a lot of words to describe that which cannot be described or even known, you also as I noticed believe in the bible, I cannot continue a discussion as I don't believe in a god or the words of the bible, what could I possibly I discus, it would be wasting my time and yours, but, I do hope you are happy in your beliefs, as long as we don't hurt others we can believe in anything we want, if that belief is true or not true.

The Bible also say's there was a talking donkey, but that doesn't mean there was lol.

 

[dianaiad]

You do use a lot of words to describe that which cannot be described or even known,

But you insist that you can prove what you believe to be true, and that it is a fact that there is no god. How can you do that without using "a lot of words?"

you also as I noticed believe in the bible, I cannot continue a discussion as I don't believe in a god or the words of the bible, what could I possibly I discus, it would be wasting my time and yours, but, I do hope you are happy in your beliefs, as long as we don't hurt others we can believe in anything we want, if that belief is true or not true.

Huh. You won't discuss religion with me because...er...I HAVE one? OK.

The Bible also say's there was a talking donkey, but that doesn't mean there was lol.

psychoslice (she says, mildly..), I know that the bible talks about Balaam's ***. Pretty good parable, that. Please notice that I'm the one who brought up the bats=birds and the hares chewing their cuds bit. I do believe that the bible is scripture, but I am not a biblical inerrantist. I'm also a dyed in the wool evolutionist. Refusing to talk to someone because they have different belief systems while you are claiming to be able to prove that YOURS is fact seems to be counterproductive, but hey; up to you.

Have a lovely one.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The Bible also say's there was a talking donkey, but that doesn't mean there was lol.

Here he is!

 

[psychoslice]

But you insist that you can prove what you believe to be true, and that it is a fact that there is no god. How can you do that without using "a lot of words?"



Huh. You won't discuss religion with me because...er...I HAVE one? OK.



psychoslice (she says, mildly..), I know that the bible talks about Balaam's ***. Pretty good parable, that. Please notice that I'm the one who brought up the bats=birds and the hares chewing their cuds bit. I do believe that the bible is scripture, but I am not a biblical inerrantist. I'm also a dyed in the wool evolutionist. Refusing to talk to someone because they have different belief systems while you are claiming to be able to prove that YOURS is fact seems to be counterproductive, but hey; up to you.

Have a lovely one.

Ok, I'll talk to you, my own way of seeing what is called God is seeing all as One, and that is the Cosmos, we are all one with the Cosmos, everything working in harmony, to me there is no so called god out there doing things, such as judging us, we do that ourselves.

You can see this in metaphors, which all scriptures are, but so many take the metaphors literally, and this is where we have so many problems, everyone believing their metaphors are the true metaphors, its really childish. I personally don't even believe in a literal Jesus, and we don't have to believe he existed, again its all metaphor.

Now if I am speaking to someone who see's the scriptures as literal then I cannot argue with them, because they are on a whole different level, and that is what you and I are, and that is why I cannot have a true discussion, I am not here to change your mind because I don't really care what you want to believe. I don't normally debate, I have experienced my own inner truth, and that is what we all need to do. But what ever that experience is, is never that truly is, the experience is always secondary to that which is. So again I cannot debate over you personal experience, you have yours and I have mine, and both in the end are not totally true, its all to do with where the experience or concept of that experience points to, and that is what we can never truly know.......that's it in a nut shell.

 

[psychoslice]

Here he is!

Ha, I only watched that the other night, and I love your humor, should be more of it around here.

 

[Sirius Star]

Ha, I only watched that the other night, and I love your humor, should be more of it around here.

Really, there is no room for jeer but there may be plenty of room for fear. That if God said that in that time there was a deer. Oh, some people just love to drink their beers. But with God they persist still for their rights. Yes, even up to very end of all the world ever offered was lies. Lies to create more burials. More food stuffs. More idiots now on drugs. What are slugs? The word languages.

Under God's eternal judgments there are no places for such arrears. That all who curse the Lord Jesus Christ inside of all of their actions as well as their very own words will perhaps eventually even prove their very own reeds. Can you imagine why in certain rivers there are so many different types of rocks which appear to have been placed there by someone just because nothing matches.

How many times have you seen the effects of floods? The rocks remain behind as if they were made to remain there through the engineering of magnets. Well what if just because some are made up of diamond swirls. Some have etched in stars. Some appear to be directions. It appears to have fed the waters. So it is easier to pick up t/where are horizontal handles. Where it is grey sediment it ruffles. For downhills. So what sciences?