Westboro Baptist Church

[Elessar]

I''m sorry, but see above post... The fact is all they are doing is taking the bible literally...which millions do. They just voice their feelings instead of keeping it in. I know quite a few people with an irrational hatred of homosexuality... they just tend to keep the snide remarks to close groups. All these people are doing is telling it like they see it, so while their actions and words could be considered evil, their intentions probably aren't. And they get their rules from the bible...which imo is a pretty horrible book, at least the OT anyway...

Actually, the WBC actually say, "G-D HATES ****!!!" which directly contradicts the Bible.

 

[frg001]

Wrong. I agree that the parents are teaching the children to become the same bigots that they are but it isn't the religion's fault. It's the parents fault.

Perpetuated and justified by, through religion, backed up by 'sacred' words in the worlds best selling instruction book... There for a perfect means of proof of their words of intolerance.

 

[frg001]

Actually, the WBC actually say, "G-D HATES ****!!!" which directly contradicts the Bible.

''
The bible contradicts the bible!
...but

It depends on how you look at it. He condemns homosexuals for showing their love to one another in a natural way to them. Seems pretty hateful to me.

In any case the god of the OT clearly hates, or at least has no respect for, all mankind, forcing worship with everlasting torture as a punishment for declining that particular demand, murdering and condoning rape among other things.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

That being said, what he says about queers differs from what Dobson and Robertson say more in tone than in substance.

Amen. Robertson scares the hell out of me. Fred is too fanatical to be taken seriously but Robertson wants to be President. Very scary.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Perpetuated and justified by, through religion, backed up by 'sacred' words in the worlds best selling instruction book... There for a perfect means of proof of their words of intolerance.

If that was true then all literary works should be considered evil because they would be responsible for whatever the reader interprets them as. I guess you want to burn all the evil texts and protect the children from the dangers of interpretation.

 

[gnomon]

What are your opinions on this radical Christian branch? I think they're crazy as ****.

YouTube - westboro pwnd by anonymous
YouTube - Shirley Phelps-Roper on Fox News
YouTube - Crazy Phelps Family on Tyra Part 1
YouTube - The Crazy Phelps Family On Tyra Banks Show Part 2
YouTube - crazy ***** on fox

They're saying "Thank God for dead soldiers" "Thank God for 9/11" "Thank God for Hurricane Katrina" "Thank God for AIDS"

Seriously, ***?

I think their a load.

Given that, I also think news organizations have given them more attention than they deserve.

 

[Elessar]

''
The bible contradicts the bible!
...but

It depends on how you look at it. He condemns homosexuals for showing their love to one another in a natural way to them. Seems pretty hateful to me.

In any case the god of the OT clearly hates, or at least has no respect for, all mankind, forcing worship with everlasting torture as a punishment for declining that particular demand, murdering and condoning rape among other things.

"G-d hate ****" is made up. Nowhere in the Bible, Tanakh or Messianic Writings, does it say that G-d hates homosexuals. Not once. He hates homosexual relations. He also hates heterosexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. He also hates lust and gluttony. But he hates neither lusters nor gluttons. No sin is greater than any other sin, but all sins separate a person from G-d; that doesn't make G-d love them less.

Westboro Baptist Church also says homosexuality is an "unforgivable sin", something which absolutely contradicts a statement made by Messiah, that:

Also, everyone who says something against the Son of Man will have it forgiven him; but whoever has blasphemed the Ruach HaKodesh ["Holy Wind"] will not be forgiven.
-Lukah 12:10

Nowhere else in the scriptures is an unforgivable sin or crime mentioned, not once.

 

[frg001]

If that was true then all literary works should be considered evil because they would be responsible for whatever the reader interprets them as.

"Lord of the rings" does not purport to be an instruction book on morality.

I guess you want to burn all the evil texts and protect the children from the dangers of interpretation.

Obvious strawman. Quite how you jump to it is beyond me, and a pretty cheap shot.
As you know by my other thread, I advocate the teaching of as many religious beliefs as possible. The bible is an interesting artifact of human history, as well as a dangerous tool. It should perhaps carry a "Parental Avisory" warning though

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

As you know by my other thread, I advocate the teaching of as many religious beliefs as possible.

But you are so full of contradictions. Religion is evil and causes people to do evil things. So the solution is to teach as much religion as we can and close all the Church run schools. I understand that this makes sense to you but to me it sounds ridiculous.

And if the Lord of the Rings wasn't an instruction book on morality then what was it? How about the Chronicles of Narnia? I suppose that was just a meaningless fairy tale.

 

[frg001]

But you are so full of contradictions. Religion is evil and causes people to do evil things. So the solution is to teach as much religion as we can and close all the Church run schools. I understand that this makes sense to you but to me it sounds ridiculous.

There is no contradiction. I advocate teaching ABOUT religion, not teaching religion as fact (preaching).

And if the Lord of the Rings wasn't an instruction book on morality then what was it? How about the Chronicles of Narnia? I suppose that was just a meaningless fairy tale.

Are you serious? You really don't see the difference between the bible and Narnia?
They are fictional stories. Often they have a lesson in morality (the authors own), but they are just entertainment.

"I pray to thee Aslan that you cure my sick mother..." ...hmm

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Are you serious? You really don't see the difference between the bible and Narnia?

Ummm, dude, you do know that the Chronicles of Narnia are Christian stories right? Aslan is Christ.

The Chronicles of Narnia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Notice the note on Tolkien as well.

Now, just so we're clear. You think religion should only be taught as a historical myth and that no one should be able to teach it as a faith. Is that what you're saying? Because it sounds like you want to destroy all religions by teaching them as myths that can't possibly be true. If so it would mean you're taking away peoples freedom of religion. If a child can't be taught a faith as a faith then where is the freedom of religion?

 

[frg001]

Ummm, dude, you do know that the Chronicles of Narnia are Christian stories right? Aslan is Christ.

The Chronicles of Narnia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Notice the note on Tolkien as well.

It is entirely different. Whatever any fictional story is based on, it doesn't purport to be factual, or to be a rulebook for how to live...which the bible does. This line of argument is a total red-herring.

Now, just so we're clear. You think religion should only be taught as a historical myth and that no one should be able to teach it as a faith.

In compulsory education it should not be taught as faith, no, although I never mentioned the word myth. It should be taught as "This is what christianity is, and what christians believe", "This is what Islam is and what muslims believe" etc!
It should be taught with respect to each faith, but specific to none.

Is that what you're saying? Because it sounds like you want to destroy all religions by teaching them as myths that can't possibly be true. If so it would mean you're taking away peoples freedom of religion. If a child can't be taught a faith as a faith then where is the freedom of religion?

No. Your words again, not mine. Stop putting words into my mouth that aren't there. The freedom of faith would be from home, and church. NOT compulsory education.

 

[Storm]

It is entirely different. Whatever any fictional story is based on, it doesn't purport to be factual, or to be a rulebook for how to live...which the bible does. This line of argument is a total red-herring.

Where does the Bible make that claim?

 

[Smoke]

Actually, the WBC actually say, "G-D HATES ****!!!" which directly contradicts the Bible.

Directly? The Bible says God loves ****?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

It is entirely different. Whatever any fictional story is based on, it doesn't purport to be factual, or to be a rulebook for how to live...which the bible does. This line of argument is a total red-herring.

Why is it different? Fictional stories have been used to teach moral lessons since stories existed so don't go telling us that only religious books claim to be instruction books on morality. Parents can use the Chronicles of Narnia to teach Christian principles. What was Aslan do in that situation? Don't be like Peter and betray your friends and family. How is that different than using the terms Christ and Judas?

In compulsory education it should not be taught as faith, no, although I never mentioned the word myth. It should be taught as "This is what christianity is, and what christians believe", "This is what Islam is and what muslims believe" etc!
It should be taught with respect to each faith, but specific to none.

You don't have to use the term myth, it's still what you are talking about. This is what the ancient Greeks believed. Notice I didn't say myth and yet everyone knew what I was talking about. You want to remove the teaching of a faith as a faith, (in other words as truth), completely from all forms of educational forums. And I think you're wrong because that is a violation of "freedom of religion". Do you have some kind of rationalization for how this isn't a violation?

No. Your words again, not mine. Stop putting words into my mouth that aren't there. The freedom of faith would be from home, and church. NOT compulsory education.

I asked if this was what you were saying and I still think this is what you are saying. You feel that freedom of religion should be restricted to the home and church and that church schools and private schools have no right to teach their faith, or even exist. I say that isn't freedom at all but tyranny at it's worst.

 

[frg001]

Why is it different? Fictional stories have been used to teach moral lessons since stories existed so don't go telling us that only religious books claim to be instruction books on morality. Parents can use the Chronicles of Narnia to teach Christian principles. What was Aslan do in that situation? Don't be like Peter and betray your friends and family. How is that different than using the terms Christ and Judas?



You don't have to use the term myth, it's still what you are talking about. This is what the ancient Greeks believed. Notice I didn't say myth and yet everyone knew what I was talking about. You want to remove the teaching of a faith as a faith, (in other words as truth), completely from all forms of educational forums. And I think you're wrong because that is a violation of "freedom of religion". Do you have some kind of rationalization for how this isn't a violation?



I asked if this was what you were saying and I still think this is what you are saying. You feel that freedom of religion should be restricted to the home and church and that church schools and private schools have no right to teach their faith, or even exist. I say that isn't freedom at all but tyranny at it's worst.

Tyranny at its worst! You have led a very sheltered life then.

Forcing kids into a specific religion is tyranny, and should not be part of the normal education a child receives.

It isn't like what I am suggesting removes any right to religion , far from it...It would give kids more information and a netter grounding. They can STILL get preached to if the parents desire, but it SHOULD BE OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

As for the continued comparison with the bible and NOVELS, that is just getting silly.



Also let me clarify. My belief on the education system is that the normal school hours whatever they may be, should be filled with a national curriculum, decided on by the state. That would include a mandatory study of religion and religious history, just like maths and english is mandatory (in the uk at least). I personally disagree with Private schools, but that is not the issue. You want to push your child into a specific faith (something which I admit I abhor, but would NOT ban) then that is your free choice, but it should fall outside the standard education system.

It may even manage to de-program kids who are born to awful families such as on the videos above.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

but it SHOULD BE OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

But you have said that you wish to control the school system. You want to eliminate all private and chruch run schools so that only the public school system exists and then only allow the school system to teach multiple religions from a historical, "this is what they believe", aspect.

And yet you say this is freedom! This is your freedom, not mine.

And so you know, since I was 10 years old I have lived and worked in the Middle East and Central Asia plus traveled all over Europe and Africa. I've even been to your lovely country. So don't try and make it sound like I'm the naive one here.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

It may even manage to de-program kids who are born to awful families such as on the videos above.

I suppose we should try and get back on topic. So you think taking away the freedom to have private schools and church run schools while forcing public schools to teach religion as a history class, (I understand this to mean as a myth), would keep children raised by haters from becoming haters. Not only is this totally absurb, but it isn't worth losing our precious freedoms for.

I understand that as a socialist you feel the state should run the education system and no one else, and as an athiest you feel religion should be studied but not believed in. I understand and support your right to believe this. That is were we differ, for in a free society you are allowed to feel this way. But you would remove the choices for those of us who disagree with you and there by force your beliefs on us. This is not freedom, it is tyranny and what makes it the worst sort is the fact that you claim it is for our own good. We obviously are too stupid to take care of ourselves and our children, after all, we believe in religion so we can't be very smart, so you will take it upon yourself to teach our children religion they way that it should be instead of the way we choose. And if we don't like it we can choose to... well, I don't suppose we'd have a choice would we?

 

[frg001]

But you have said that you wish to control the school system. You want to eliminate all private and chruch run schools so that only the public school system exists and then only allow the school system to teach multiple religions from a historical, "this is what they believe", aspect.

And yet you say this is freedom! This is your freedom, not mine.

What about the freedom of the children?
I would like to see private schools taken outside the standard curriculum. I would not advocate a complete ban, but for the 8-3 mon-fri(or whatever), standard education system, I would like to see a STANDARD curriculum, one that does not involve indoctrination. Indoctrination is NOT education.

And so you know, since I was 10 years old I have lived and worked in the Middle East and Central Asia plus traveled all over Europe and Africa. I've even been to your lovely country. So don't try and make it sound like I'm the naive one here.

I'm sorry, but your persistant illogical argument IS naive.

 

[Storm]

You're calling Trey illogical? Oh, the irony.