Whales have hip bones.

[Mr Spinkles]

Shermana.... It's important to remember that vestigial doesn't mean "useless" it means "reduced in function".

The hip bones of whales have clearly undergone a reduction in function over time, thus they are vestigial.

What is really cool is that there are plenty of other vestigial and odd features of whales other than their hips.

They have vestigial ears that don't connect up to their brains and may only be 1mm wide. They also have muscles for moving non-existent external ears.

They have ruminant stomachs like cows do... yet they don't need it to eat and most of the stomach has shrunken and in some species they have fused chambers.

Their diaphragms are vestigial and now have next to no muscle structure... since whales have developed the use of their ribs to breath they didn't need the diaphragm much anymore. Ribs are much more important in whale breathing for species that dive deep.

It gets even more weird when you add embryology. For example: Baby baleen whales develop teeth before shedding them and growing baleen. Which is totally cool but totally silly.

wa:do

Does anyone else feel that reading a discussion between painted wolf and a creationist is sort of like watching Muhammad Ali fight Gary Coleman? It's almost painful to watch.

 

[dantech]

What is really odd about that point, is that not all Uranium has such a long half life... U 232 has a half life of only 68.9 years.

Like most elements Uranium has several isotopes with different half-lives.

wa:do

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with this... how is that odd? And more importantly, how does that have anything to do with God?

 

[Shermana]

Shermana.... It's important to remember that vestigial doesn't mean "useless" it means "reduced in function".

The hip bones of whales have clearly undergone a reduction in function over time, thus they are vestigial.

What is really cool is that there are plenty of other vestigial and odd features of whales other than their hips.

They have vestigial ears that don't connect up to their brains and may only be 1mm wide. They also have muscles for moving non-existent external ears.

They have ruminant stomachs like cows do... yet they don't need it to eat and most of the stomach has shrunken and in some species they have fused chambers.

Their diaphragms are vestigial and now have next to no muscle structure... since whales have developed the use of their ribs to breath they didn't need the diaphragm much anymore. Ribs are much more important in whale breathing for species that dive deep.

It gets even more weird when you add embryology. For example: Baby baleen whales develop teeth before shedding them and growing baleen. Which is totally cool but totally silly.

wa:do

I'll get on those, I have a few ideas on what function they could perform. And yes, I'm fully aware that "Vestigal" does not mean "Useless" necessarily. In fact, I believe that Vestigality can very well be a part of Micro-evolution but doesn't necessarily leave a trail for true "Macro" in which a "Change of Family or Genus" would be what I would use in place of the slippery concept of "Species".

Now do you agree at least that it's been said by an objective scientific source that Basilosaurus very well may have used those Hip bones for mating and then the connection was that "Other whales mate similarly?" And would you agree that there's not enough research on whale mating to say that the hip bones aren't used for such? Would it be fair to say that one cannot claim the Hip Bones don't have a function necessarily as a matter of fact?

 

[painted wolf]

I'll get on those, I have a few ideas on what function they could perform. And yes, I'm fully aware that "Vestigal" does not mean "Useless" necessarily. In fact, I believe that Vestigality can very well be a part of Micro-evolution but doesn't necessarily leave a trail for true "Macro" in which a "Change of Family or Genus" would be what I would use in place of the slippery concept of "Species".

Now do you agree at least that it's been said by an objective scientific source that Basilosaurus very well may have used those Hip bones for mating and then the connection was that "Other whales mate similarly?" And would you agree that there's not enough research on whale mating to say that the hip bones aren't used for such? Would it be fair to say that one cannot claim the Hip Bones don't have a function necessarily as a matter of fact?

Basilosaurus likely used it's tiny legs as copulatory guides... that is in lining up the male and female so that they could actually perform the deed. (and possibly push rivals out of the way) This is not a problem for modern whales for very interesting but not very often talked about reasons.

Whale mating is actually pretty well studied (at least as well as it can be) and whales don't mate with any "hip action" in the way we would think of it.
A male whale's penis is more like an elephants trunk than an elephants penis...it is highly mobile and can move in any direction and even wrap itself around things. This means that the male and female don't have to line up with each other to mate. They can mate in essentially any position except perhaps with the male directly above the female.

In this sense then no... modern whales don't mate similarly to Basilosaurus. Unless you mean that they did it in the water.

Again... the subject of whale penises isn't exactly a hot topic of discussion in most places, so it's understandable that it may be thought of as a "poorly studied" subject it certainly is a place where there is a lot of room for more research. But given that we have plenty of captive bred whales and dolphins it's not exactly an area that is going to be a total mystery.

The real areas that haven't been researched enough are particular mating habits of individual species. We understand the anatomy of it.
The only reason I personally know about it, is that I was fortunate enough to get to hear a lecture on the subject from one of the top whale anatomists.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with this... how is that odd? And more importantly, how does that have anything to do with God?

It's odd because it ignores the fact that Uranium doesn't exist as a single substance with a single half-life.
It would be like talking about "Abrahamic religion" while ignoring the Jews and the Muslims.

As for what it has to do with God... your guess is as good as mine.

wa:do

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Whales have hip bones; men have hip bones.
Whales don't have a baculum; men don't have a baculum.

Could that possibly mean ...

(By the way, it's been argued that Genesis was referring to the baculum and not some rib. The plot thickens ...)

 

[dantech]

It's odd because it ignores the fact that Uranium doesn't exist as a single substance with a single half-life.
It would be like talking about "Abrahamic religion" while ignoring the Jews and the Muslims.

As for what it has to do with God... your guess is as good as mine.

wa:do

What is "it"? What ignores the fact? The Bible? Do you think the Bible is supposed to enumerate all the elements, and molecules possible as well as their half lives? I'm sorry, I really think I'm failing to understand your point.

 

[painted wolf]

What is "it"? What ignores the fact? The Bible? Do you think the Bible is supposed to enumerate all the elements, and molecules possible as well as their half lives? I'm sorry, I really think I'm failing to understand your point.

Super Universes argument... you know, the "it" you said wasn't relevant.
I was just pointing out that not only isn't it relevant, it's not fully factual either.

Sorry if I didn't state that explicitly enough.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Whales have hip bones; men have hip bones.
Whales don't have a baculum; men don't have a baculum.

Could that possibly mean ...

(By the way, it's been argued that Genesis was referring to the baculum and not some rib. The plot thickens ...)

Very interesting... our lack of a baculum can't have gone unnoticed, it seems like a plausible way for them to account for the difference.

wa:do

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Very interesting... our lack of a baculum can't have gone unnoticed, it seems like a plausible way for them to account for the difference.

On the other hand, the Sunday School story becomes a bit more awkward.

 

[painted wolf]

On the other hand, the Sunday School story becomes a bit more awkward.

There is that ... but it could help the culture get over some of it's squeamishness.

wa:do