What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[wandering peacefully]

Maybe, we can hope, that with this excursion off the post, aimed at personal selves, it may be seen to be better to actually address the OP and keep our accusations to our selves?

I have already addressed the OP. And you're right I suppose, its much better to insult every other religious belief system and practitioners as well as non-religious folks with sickly sweet, not so brilliantly disguised air of superiority and feigned inclusiveness, than to just point out the particular people who constantly partake in that practice. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for more wise advice.

 

[CG Didymus]

The answer would have been is that the Message given by each of those Prophets was not wrong.

How we each choose to see what they said, is what confuses what was the original Message.

Regards Tony

Where in the Baha'i writings does this "original" message come from? Do Baha'i think that because Baha'u'llah had all knowledge that he knew what the original messages were and therefore what he says about the other religions is the original message? And everything that doesn't fit with what Baha'u'llah has said about other religions must be things people added in?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort.

So that sounds like all those that found truth in any other religion, but Baha'i, weren't sincere enough, not pure hearted enough to find the real truth, the Baha'i Faith. Then what about those that have left the Baha'i Faith? Poor lost souls.

I never said that and the passage I quoted does not say that. It is talking about searching for Truth in general, and not what we find.

But, what about the Atheists here. You know lots of them did search, investigate and even became believers as best they could in some religions. And then left. Why did they leave? Was it the hypocrisy of the followers?

What a stupid reason to leave, because humans are fallible and they do not represent the religion.

Is because the teachings were just too outside of logic and reason? That's what Baha'is could be, and I think should be learning from Atheists.

The Baha'i Faith is not outside of logic and reason, so what are Baha'is going to learn from Atheists?

Local Baha'is do virtually nothing in my area. And I live close to San Francisco and Sacramento. I talk to you on the forum here, because the local Baha'is aren't doing anything. We have poor people coming Central America and are being locked up as criminals. Where's the Baha'is? We have mass shootings happening all over the U.S. What do the Baha'is have to say about guns. We have the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. What are the Baha'is doing about this? Virtually nothing. Why? Because you are waiting for this world to crumble? Because the leaders of the world rejected Baha'u'llah's message back in the 1800's?

Don't ask me why the Baha'is are not doing anything because I am not doing anything with the Baha'is so I do not know what they are doing or not doing. It seems t me that their energies are focused on what is not that important, community building and children's classes, when teaching should be the primary activity. But who am I? I do not even know the latest directives from the UHJ.

Some Baha'is are waiting for the world to crumble and not doing anything while they wait, and they should be ashamed of themselves. I do not do much, but I spend every single single of every single day when I am not at work or sleeping on forums. My life has gone to rack and ruin as a result of neglect. I should have put an ad on Craigslist to advertise my rental house that will soon be vacated by the tenant but instead I have been on these forums. I won't even tell you what has happened to the house we live in because it is too embarrassing. there are only 24 hours in a day.

Baha'is had a Peace Statement in 1986. What happened to it? What happened to let "deeds not words" be what Baha'is are known for? Baha'is are part of an organized religion that has to follow the rules. It doesn't allow individuals the freedom to get to "radical" in calling for change. Sorry, but for me it seems like too many Baha'is are sitting around doing very little to bring about positive change in the world. So Baha'is are just like so many other organized religions. They have a bunch of nominal followers.

Whereas that might be true, that says nothing about whether or not Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not. As I recall, Shoghi Effendi said that if the Baha'is do not do what is necessary, God will raise up another people who will do it in their stead.

I think it is great that you like to discuss things with Atheists, but are you listening to them and learning from them? In almost every thread here that involves Baha'i, it seems like Baha'is haven't drawn people together but have pushed them further away. Am I wrong in that? Do you feel you're making friends or creating enemies? Is there a mutual understanding and respect for each others opinions or beliefs, or do both sides dig in and fight for their beliefs and find ways to prove the other side is wrong? Sorry, but if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, I just think Baha'is should be the peacemakers and should be bringing people together.

From my perspective, I do not think that any Baha'is are pushing anyone away. It is the Atheists who tell us we are wrong, about Messengers of God, so what are we supposed to say? If we agree with them we are being dishonest and from my perspective God exists so we are not doing them any favors by denying that just so there will be no disharmony. The best I can do is present what I believe and answer questions. I have a respect for everyone's beliefs or non-beliefs because I believe free will is sacrosanct. I just try to understand people and why they believe or disbelieve. I do not want to prove anything to anyone.

How can Baha'is make peace when so many people are constantly fighting us?

 

[Phaedrus]

My point has been if a person sees something/experiences something, that is evidence to them.
I've never claimed it was scientific or imperial, just that it is evidence to that person.

People with medically diagnosed mental issues who hear voices and see things that aren't there are seeing and hearing that which is real to them, but we know those things do not exist in reality outside of their minds. The same applies to the god concept.

 

[Trailblazer]

NONE HAVE ANY EVIDENCE. NONE.

Some do...

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

 

[Phaedrus]

It is interesting how many believers confuse a claim for evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

And all those slaughtered in the 1800's? Were Self-proclaimed "God People".

The ones slaughtered were not Self-proclaimed God People, they were the followers of the Self-proclaimed God People. The Bab and Baha'u'llah were Self-proclaimed God People, because they proclaimed themselves to be sent by God. How else could we ever know they were sent by God?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is interesting how many believers confuse a claim for evidence.

A claim is not evidence because that would be circular reasoning.
Evidence is separate from the claim and backs up the claim so it is not circular.

 

[Trailblazer]

My point has been if a person sees something/experiences something, that is evidence to them.
I've never claimed it was scientific or imperial, just that it is evidence to that person.

And what constitutes evidence to one person will never be the same as what constitutes evidence to another person, not even within the same religion.

The reason atheists say "it is not evidence" is because it is not evidence to them.
That strikes me as rather self-centered, but I do not even think they understand why.

What they are really saying is the "if it was really evidence ** I ** would believe it because I am so great at evidence investigation I could never be wrong."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where in the Baha'i writings does this "original" message come from? Do Baha'i think that because Baha'u'llah had all knowledge that he knew what the original messages were and therefore what he says about the other religions is the original message? And everything that doesn't fit with what Baha'u'llah has said about other religions must be things people added in?

God and yes.

It is indeed our lack of understanding.

This passage is firm and very clear on that issue;

"...To maintain that the testimony of Providence was incomplete, that it hath therefore been the cause of the denial of the people, is but open blasphemy. How far from the grace of the All-Bountiful and from His loving providence and tender mercies it is to single out a soul from amongst all men for the guidance of His creatures, and, on one hand, to withhold from Him the full measure of His divine testimony, and, on the other, inflict severe retribution on His people for having turned away from His chosen One! Nay, the manifold bounties of the Lord of all beings have, at all times, through the Manifestations of His Divine Essence, encompassed the earth and all that dwell therein. Not for a moment hath His grace been withheld, nor have the showers of His loving-kindness ceased to rain upon mankind. Consequently, such behavior can be attributed to naught save the petty-mindedness of such souls as tread the valley of arrogance and pride, are lost in the wilds of remoteness, walk in the ways of their idle fancy, and follow the dictates of the leaders of their faith. Their chief concern is mere opposition; their sole desire is to ignore the truth..."

Regards Tony

 

[We Never Know]

People with medically diagnosed mental issues who hear voices and see things that aren't there are seeing and hearing that which is real to them, but we know those things do not exist in reality outside of their minds. The same applies to the god concept.

I agree. Point is it exists to them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

On the other hand, the 'shotgun' approach- appealing to many gods- might improve your chances of getting help sooner (but they might get mad that you're dealing 'across the fence' with other gods, so your mileage may vary).

Hindu Gods and Goddesses are hardly ever envious (of course, there are exceptions, but they make amends later).

So fulfilled prophecy would be nice to have as "proof" that what God has supposedly said is true. But, the biggest promise, that of a peaceful world, hasn't been fulfilled. And, if prophecy doesn't get fulfilled that makes the ones that made those claims false prophets. So just between the two, Christians and Baha'is, at least one of them will be spreading false prophecies, maybe both.

You are right there. Why just one of the two? Basically all. This whole fallacy begins with the acceptance of the existence of God/Gods and ends with the acceptance of prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis. The world will go according to its ways.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are a few people on this site that keep coming on to each thread and proselytize their view of proselytizing very often now.
Why? If they see a religious discussion or debate as such, maybe they should not post?

Newton's third law of Motion. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".

Each one of those names are of God, like the elephant story one just has to take the blindfold off to see we talk of the same elephant.

When you are in a blind-fold, you may take a banana stump to be an elephants leg. Remove the blind-fold and you find there is no elephant, it is only a banana stump. Well illustrated by the Rope and Snake example of Sankaracharya. So, open your eyes and mind and find the reality.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Some do....

Nope. None. NONE.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

That is not actual EVIDENCE: NO "PROPHECIES" HAVE EVER BEEN FILLED. Mainly, because most of them don't actually qualify as predictions/prophecies.

Saying, "there will be WAR!" Is garbage. It's not a "prophesy" it's a guess-- and based on observing humans love them their war...

NO EVIDENCE. NONE.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Bob you walk out in your garden and see a snake, you kill it, throw it to the weeds, then a hawk snatches it up and flies off with it out of sight.

You saw it, killed it, saw the hawk fly away with it. That is all evidence to you.

Now is it "evident to you" that you killed a snake or do you now just have faith you did?

Unless I have video? It's not evidence. Not even to me: I might have been dreaming the whole time, due to some unfortunate mix of prescription medicine, or perhaps I tripped, fell and suffered a mild blow to the head. Maybe I was half asleep during a TV show featuring Hawks, Snakes and Wildebeests.

But unless it's written down, documented with non-human agency (as in the aforementioned video?) IT IS NOT EVIDENCE.

Clearly this is a concept that is entirely beyond your grasp...

 

[We Never Know]

Unless I have video? It's not evidence. Not even to me: I might have been dreaming the whole time, due to some unfortunate mix of prescription medicine, or perhaps I tripped, fell and suffered a mild blow to the head. Maybe I was half asleep during a TV show featuring Hawks, Snakes and Wildebeests.

But unless it's written down, documented with non-human agency (as in the aforementioned video?) IT IS NOT EVIDENCE.

Clearly this is a concept that is entirely beyond your grasp...

Do you live in the matrix? Lol

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The ones slaughtered were not Self-proclaimed God People, they were the followers of the Self-proclaimed God People. The Bab and Baha'u'llah were Self-proclaimed God People, because they proclaimed themselves to be sent by God. How else could we ever know they were sent by God?

There is zero difference, in your above.

Principally due to the glaringly obvious FACT, that "self-proclaimed god-people" have not bothered to prove the gods they promote, are possible, let alone real.

There is no functional distinction between them, or their followers.

Never Forget: Charles Manson did not personally kill anyone.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you live in the matrix? Lol.

Probably we do. My belief accepts 'maya', illusions. Simple example, your finger. There is no finger. It is only a collection of fast revolving energy points. The micro and macro views are very different.

 

[Dawnofhope]

- Yeah, I have.
- "Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person, while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed."
- "According to the Book of Genesis, the Midianites were the descendants of Midian, who was a son of Abraham and his wife Keturah: "Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah" (Genesis 25:1–2, King James Version)."
Midian - Wikipedia, Moses - Wikipedia
If Medianites were descendants of Midian, who was a son of Abraham, then Moses will be much after Abraham. Moses was the son of a Medianite priest and YHWH was a Medianite God.
- "Terah, the ninth in descent from Noah, was the father of three sons: Abram, Nahor, and Haran. The entire family, including grandchildren, lived in Ur of the Chaldees. According to a midrash, Abram worked in Terah's idol shop in his youth."
Abraham - Wikipedia
- "Henry Rawlinson identified Ur Kaśdim with Tell el-Muqayyar, near Nasiriyah in southern Iraq."
Ur of the Chaldees - Wikipedia
It is quite a distance between lower Iraq and Indus valley. You have the whole of Iran and Baluchistan between them.
- Hardly anything common between Judaism and Hinduism. One has its doors open to any number of Gods and, the other insists on one God. The Vedas and Vedic Gods were included in Hinduism at a later time. Sure there is a parallel between Zoroastrianism and Judaism. And many think that Judaism took its monotheism from Zoroastrianism during the exile.

Sure interested parties have always tried to associate Judaism and Christianity with Hinduism.

Anything beyond two thousand plus years of age is often problematic in regards historicity, the origins of Judaism and Hinduism included. Obviously there is a range of opinion about the associations between the origins of these two faiths and any associations they may have had.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Judaism always stayed relatively small, but the reason Christianity and Islam "prospered" as well as they did is a long history of coercive proselytizing, conversion at swordpoint, and slaughtering of competing religions... all things I thought that the Baha'i faith strongly opposed, no?

It is undeniable that both Christianity and Islam have become the religion of some of the most powerful and influential Empires on the planet. Part of their power and influence was military might. Judaism was also a force to be reckoned with in its day but the peak of its civilisation was reached three thousand years ago so historically its harder to have clarity about its sphere of influence whereas Christianity and Islam are much more recent. Hinduism goes back possibly 10,000 years so there's much we don't know. In the absence of knowledge its easy to idealise a people or portray them as barbaric depending on your agenda. Islam has made inroads into India since the Umayyad campaigns during the 8th century. The main Muslim conquests of the Indian subcontinent took place between the 12th and 16th centuries.

Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia

European powers started to have increasing influence over India with the British Empire colonising India from the early 19th century until after WWII,

Colonial India - Wikipedia

The world is a very different place through the twentieth century with the United Nations maintain some semblance of international law and order. Clearly we have a long way to go.

Will the Baha'i Faith use Military conquest, conversion by coercion and proselytising as did Christianity, Islam, Judaism and probably Hinduism too? No.