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What Americans Think about Evolution

idav

Being
Premium Member
Then demonstrate how life can come from nonlife, idav. For people who can't do what is asked of them in this regard, there is so much talking. Prove it.
This talk gets into it by someone more qualified than me. At around 7 minutes there is cool video of basic non-living material acting life like.

Martin Hanczyc: The line between life and not-life | Video on TED.com

Here is another cite that talks about protocell research.
Protocells are simple chemical agents that can behave as 'natural computers'. The body of the droplet can be thought of as being a form of ‘hardware’ and the chemical reactions inside the droplet and the chemistry of the environment, are a kind of 'software'. Although these systems are very simple, they may behave in very complex ways and appear incredibly lifelike. However, these 'protocells' are not alive as they do not possess any central form of biological programming such as, DNA.
Protocells - Inpossible.me - Inpossible.me
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
So if we are able to analyze the brain of Albert Einstien, that would mean that we are smarter than Einstein? Fallacious.
Strawman. You changed the condition to create a false conclusion.

So where would you get the genetic information from? How do you get information from a mindless and blind process? Can a mindless and blind person give you any information? What you have with DNA is codes, information, instructions...how can you get all of this from a mindless process?? And not only that, it is more than just having all the of the "stuff", you have to place every single incredient in a specified order so that you can get the desired result. This is distinct from the cosmic ingredients, which also had to be fine tuned and orchestrated in the right order.
God could have made that stuff. Believe that if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that evolution is true and is happening.


Bill Gates said "DNA is like a software program, only much more complex than anything we've ever devised" (Bill Gates The Road Ahead 1996 pg 228 Revised). And that is coming from a person that made billions off of software programs. Not to mention the fact that in order to build any kind of software progam that is coded, intelligent design is absolutely necessary.
Ah.

He also said, "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time."

He was wrong.

So you just have no credibility.
Your lack of knowledge and even the will to take some time to think and analyze what's being said to you gives you close to none as well.

The information that is in ALL the chromosomes of one human being...if you typed it out, would fill enough books to fill the Grand Canyon 78 times. (Walt Brown In the Beginning pg 62).
The memory capacity of all harddisks in the world is around 300 exabyte. That's 300 and 20 zeros behind. If you did the same as you suggested about the DNA above, you'd fill Earth. So computer memory wins.

That is the INSTRUCTIONS to make one human being. King David said "I am fearfully and wonderfully made" Psalm 139:14. And he said this without peeking through one microscope.
Your evidence is a quote from someone called King David more than 2,000 years ago? Yeah. He was a scientist. He also cheated on his wife. That makes it right because he was so smart. Right? That's how you argue.

Now you can sit there and be as intellectually dishonest as you like and down-play it all you want, but so far, not only has science been able to tell us how to get life from nonliving material, but you have to be able to show where does all of this specified information come from?
From the Universe and Nature. That's why God is an intricate and integrated part of existence and life. You can't separate God to an external entity detached from the very process of life itself.

That is a lie, Ouro. One protein molecule has so much information that the entire time since the Big Bang would not give you all of the resources you need to generate that same molecule by chance.
There are more stars in the universe than there are cells in your body, so you're obviously unaware of the grandness of the universe.

The probability is astronimical, and I find it amazing that you believe that this could occur not only be a blind and mindlessprocess, but by random chance. So improbability x improbablity will only give you even more improbability. That is the price of atheism...improbability.
Atheism? I'm not suggesting atheism here. I'm suggesting reasonable theistic evolution. You're the one denying God's power to use evolution.

Besides, the probability for humans to share ERVs and transposons with the chimpanzees are ever worse. It's completely improbable that it was by chance. God must've intentionally created flawed genes in humans and chimps, identical, and just as unnecessary in both, to create a false trail of relationship. That means God is a liar and deceiver... or... Evolution is true. Your choice. A lying God or a truthful God using evolution?

Are they making bucks because they've found out how to get life from nonlife? No.
?

That wasn't the point. Slow down and try to comprehend what you're reading. You're going in 300 mph without thinking about what you're arguing.

Even if you get one amnio acid, that is still far from life, Ouro. It take 75 amino acids to form a protein, at least. Then you need the right bonds between the acids, and since they come in right handed and left handed versions, you need only the left handed ones...then they have to link up in a specifed sequence..in the same way that this very sentence I am typing is worded in a specifed way. These specifications are NECESSARY, and that is just for ONE protein molecule...but a cell would need hundreds of these molecules.
Some of the experiments produced more than 75 amino acids.

The right handed and left handed issue has been addressed by a recent article that I linked to a few weeks back. I guess you didn't see it.

If a sequence has to be specified and correct, how come we have ERVs? Why can't humans produce C-vitamins naturally in their body?

So for every one of those hundreds (at least three hundred) of proteins that are needed, the same improbability is applied for each and every one of them. You may be able to get one, and that is being VERY modest, but what are the chances of you getting at least 300 by a mindless and blind and not to mention RANDOM process? Yet, this is what you believe??
You need to stop and think to understand these arguments. You're blasting through with something that you think are counterarguments when you obviously don't even understand what was being said. I can tell you didn't even bother to read or understand what was said.

You have demonstrate how life could have formed without intelligent design. So far, we don't even know how life could have formed naturally with some of the greatest minds on earth on the job. If it is that difficult to make life from nonlife with intelligent design, how much more difficult would it be to create life from nonlife without it?
You didn't read it then.

Not to mention the fact that I am a mind-body dualist, and based on that belief I don't believe you can get consiousness from natural life. I believe the mind is separate body, and there is certainly no good naturalistic reason as to how you can get consicousness from matter...so I just don't think life from nonlife is even remotely possible.
I don't mind that you believe in dualism.

It doesn't matter if you believe in dualism or even that God created the first cells, the fact of the matter is that life then evolved after.

If you stopped acting like a troll and actually took your time to understand the arguments, it wouldn't be so frustrating for both parties.
 
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SkylarHunter

Active Member
The thing I really don't understand is: if so many people who are catholic, protestant or from whatever religion believe in evolution, why are they still in that religion? Why did they not just become atheist which would be the logical thing to do?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
The thing I really don't understand is: if so many people who are catholic, protestant or from whatever religion believe in evolution, why are they still in that religion? Why did they not just become atheist which would be the logical thing to do?

Because evolution doesn't automatically mean no-God.

The process of Big Bang, Evolution, Life, etc, could be the result of a God.

Also, you can actually read the Bible and other religious text in a very different way than the literalists try to do.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The thing I really don't understand is: if so many people who are catholic, protestant or from whatever religion believe in evolution, why are they still in that religion? Why did they not just become atheist which would be the logical thing to do?

Because the ToE is in no way anti-theistic, and most Christian theologians believe the creation accounts to be allegory, as do the vast majority of Jewish theologians. A literalistic interpretation of these accounts makes no sense based on how they're constructed, how we're quite certain of how they originated, plus what we now know about the evolutionary process.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
The thing I really don't understand is: if so many people who are catholic, protestant or from whatever religion believe in evolution, why are they still in that religion? Why did they not just become atheist which would be the logical thing to do?
If the only reason you believe in God is because you need Him in order to explain how life came about, then that's not a particularly good reason to believe in Him.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Strawman. You changed the condition to create a false conclusion.

Well based on the fact that the statement that I quoted from you was blatantly false in the first place, we need not discuss my "false conclusion".

God could have made that stuff. Believe that if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that evolution is true and is happening.

I believe in that paragraph there were some questions that I wanted you to answer. Now if you want to answer the questions by saying that "God could have made that stuff up", cool. If you don't, then once again; explain to me how a mindless and blind process can create codes, instructions, and information.

Ah.

He also said, "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time."

He was wrong.

So just because he was wrong about what you quoted him, he is wrong about what I quoted him? Fallacious.

The memory capacity of all harddisks in the world is around 300 exabyte. That's 300 and 20 zeros behind. If you did the same as you suggested about the DNA above, you'd fill Earth. So computer memory wins.

One person's DNA, if you stretched it out, could reach the moon from the earth over half a million times. That is over half a million round trips from the earth to the moon, and that is so much information that new numbers had to be invented to quantify it. You ever heard of yottabytes and zetabytes? Thats what we are talking about here. And I still would like to know where is all of this information coming from??

Your evidence is a quote from someone called King David more than 2,000 years ago? Yeah. He was a scientist. He also cheated on his wife. That makes it right because he was so smart. Right? That's how you argue.

Oh, so now morality is the subject of discussion? I didn't know that cheating on your wife disqualifies one from making a truthful statement.

There are more stars in the universe than there are cells in your body, so you're obviously unaware of the grandness of the universe.

I am also unaware of the relevance of the star/cell quantitive comparison.

Atheism? I'm not suggesting atheism here. I'm suggesting reasonable theistic evolution. You're the one denying God's power to use evolution.

If God has to power to create life from nonlife, and the power to create a universe from nothing, then why would he use a trial and error process? Now despite this unpluasible reasoning, it is possible. But even if God did use evolution...that is still a defeater of atheism/naturalism. Intelligent design is still necessary.

Besides, the probability for humans to share ERVs and transposons with the chimpanzees are ever worse. It's completely improbable that it was by chance. God must've intentionally created flawed genes in humans and chimps, identical, and just as unnecessary in both, to create a false trail of relationship. That means God is a liar and deceiver... or... Evolution is true. Your choice. A lying God or a truthful God using evolution?

Laughable. Yeah, God is a liar and deceiver because people choose to be ignorant and intellectual dishonest about his creation.

?
That wasn't the point. Slow down and try to comprehend what you're reading. You're going in 300 mph without thinking about what you're arguing.

Actually, I know exactly what I am arguing. You were telling me some irrelevance stuff about people who are making big bucks doing whatever it is they do, and my point is those people aren't making big bucks because they've discovered how life can come from nonlife...that is the question. All of that other jive....irrelevant.

Some of the experiments produced more than 75 amino acids.

Yet, no life? Hmmm.

The right handed and left handed issue has been addressed by a recent article that I linked to a few weeks back. I guess you didn't see it.

I didn't. Doesn't matter anyway. They still didn't create life. That is like saying someone has created the brake pedal for a car...well, the brake pedal isn't the car..in fact, you are a longgg way from creating a car by creating just the break pedal. Not to mention the fact that even if they are successful (which they won't be), what does that mean? That mean that it takes intelligent design to create LIFE. But according to the theory, there WAS no intelligent design. So it isn't even the same concept. And I ask again, where is the information coming from??

It isn't as if scientists can create the code or the information that is contained in the dna...so where is the information coming from? Hmmm.

If a sequence has to be specified and correct, how come we have ERVs? Why can't humans produce C-vitamins naturally in their body?

Cart before horse fallacy. Any similarity in genetics could have resulted from the Designer.

You need to stop and think to understand these arguments. You're blasting through with something that you think are counterarguments when you obviously don't even understand what was being said. I can tell you didn't even bother to read or understand what was said.

Then refute what I said.

I don't mind that you believe in dualism.

It doesn't matter if you believe in dualism or even that God created the first cells, the fact of the matter is that life then evolved after.

If you stopped acting like a troll and actually took your time to understand the arguments, it wouldn't be so frustrating for both parties.

Instead of telling me what happened after life started, I would like to know how life started. Cart before horse fallacy.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
If the only reason you believe in God is because you need Him in order to explain how life came about, then that's not a particularly good reason to believe in Him.

Well, whats the problem in appealing to God to explain how life came about? We certainly can't appeal to science.

Evolutionists place their faith in Charles Darwin. Christians palce their faith in Jesus Christ. In the very end, lets see who prevails.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Well, whats the problem in appealing to God to explain how life came about? We certainly can't appeal to science.

Evolutionists place their faith in Charles Darwin. Christians palce their faith in Jesus Christ. In the very end, lets see who prevails.
If the only reason one believes in God is because He is necessary for life, then that makes no discernment between the god of one religion or another. The god of another religion could have made life as well. In order to believe in the Judeo-Christian God, one must surely have other reasons to believe in His existence over the existence of other gods. Hence why "life requires God" is an insufficient justification to believe in the Abrahamic God specifically.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Well, whats the problem in appealing to God to explain how life came about?
The same as the problem in appealing to Zeus to explain thunder and lightning.

Evolutionists place their faith in Charles Darwin.
No, we don't. He just theorized the notion of natural selection. Are you still so uninformed that you think the modern theory of evolution is something that just randomly popped out of Darwin's head and hasn't changed since?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, whats the problem in appealing to God to explain how life came about? We certainly can't appeal to science.

Evolutionists place their faith in Charles Darwin. Christians palce their faith in Jesus Christ. In the very end, lets see who prevails.

If "God" is Truth, what you are pushing here is the opposite of what I would think "God" wants. Most people who understand that evolution is both real and common sense also believe in "God", and for you to imply the opposite simply is the antithesis of what I think "God" would be about. You simply cannot proclaim you love "God" and be sincere but then ignore the overwhelming evidence found in "His" creation that's right in front of your eyes, namely that every material thing changes over time, and that includes life forms. To deny that is to deny creation itself and, instead, to believe in a fairy-tale version of "God".
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Instead of telling me what happened after life started, I would like to know how life started. Cart before horse fallacy.

I thought I already described to you that what we call Life is not some mysterious phenomena that separates living from non-living matter. Matter in general does not live, it is not alive, nor does it ever become alive. Matter is animated by the fundamental forces of nature, the same forces which result in the chemical reactions we see in nature. In the early days of the Earth, those chemical reactions started out fairly simple and thus things were not very lifelike to begin with. However, as time progressed those chemical interactions became increasingly complex in nature and in the process things became increasingly more lifelike. As the chemical interactions within forms became more complex and lifelike, they began to develop certain unique characteristics...metabolism, reproduction, etc...

So I will say this again. There is no true Life (living matter), only those forms of matter which appear more lifelike or animate than others. The more complex the chemical interactions within matter, the more lifelike those forms appear.

Creatures like us humans or other animals are not alive, we are merely engaged in a very complex order of ongoing chemical interactions. When something happens to interrupt those complex chemical interactions, it may in the process take away that which makes us so lifelike.

---
 
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Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
One cannot argue and use logic with someone who confuses science with a belief system.
One cannot debate with someone who ignores evidence in favor of mythology.
One cannot be heard by someone who sticks his fingers in his ears and screams lalalalal to drown out the voice of reason.
One cannot discuss scientific discoveries with someone who has his head so far up in his own anatomy he can’t see the sun shine at high noon.

But it’s great fun to watch someone like that twist in the wind while he spouts inconsequential nonsense and trips himself up in his own words. Wordfencing with a creationist ‘s wilful ignorance does have its moments. And so we continue…
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
The same as the problem in appealing to Zeus to explain thunder and lightning.

Both thunder and lightning ultimately owe their existence to God. So Zeus was right, he was just mistaken about which God.

No, we don't. He just theorized the notion of natural selection. Are you still so uninformed that you think the modern theory of evolution is something that just randomly popped out of Darwin's head and hasn't changed since?

Well, you still believe that we all share a common ancestor, right? Well, so did Darwin. That is the big picture...and both you and him believe this. All of that other stuff is minor.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Both thunder and lightning ultimately owe their existence to God. So Zeus was right, he was just mistaken about which God.



Well, you still believe that we all share a common ancestor, right? Well, so did Darwin. That is the big picture...and both you and him believe this. All of that other stuff is minor.

What's your working/educational background in?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
If "God" is Truth, what you are pushing here is the opposite of what I would think "God" wants. Most people who understand that evolution is both real and common sense also believe in "God", and for you to imply the opposite simply is the antithesis of what I think "God" would be about.

Well then we are obviously not talking about the God that revealed himself in Jesus Christ here. That God doesn't need a trial and error process as a method for his creation. The bible says God spoke it in to existence, and it was so.

You simply cannot proclaim you love "God" and be sincere but then ignore the overwhelming evidence found in "His" creation that's right in front of your eyes, namely that every material thing changes over time, and that includes life forms. To deny that is to deny creation itself and, instead, to believe in a fairy-tale version of "God".

Right, you just said it. His "creation thats right in front of our eyes". So based on what we can see with our "eyes", animals will only produce what they are, not what they aren't. And no man has ever saw with his "eyes" these large scale changes that you accept with faith has occurred. So if we are going by what is in front of our "eyes", then there is no reason to believe in evolution, because we've only seen dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, etc. There has been no exception to this in your lifetime, my lifetime, or anyones lifetime. So why believe it?
 
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