What are Hamas' leaders thinking?

[icehorse]

How is that the case when we're explicitly discussing Israel?

"Hey, which do you think is better; football or tennis?"
"Football."
"That's a lie by omission! You didn't even mention snooker, bowling or hockey! I call bias!"

Because unlike your sports analogy - in which the sports you listed don't really relate closely to each other - Jordan and Egypt play a large role in the situation we're discussing - they are a part of the local system that includes Palestine and Israel.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because unlike your sports analogy - in which the sports you listed don't really relate closely to each other - Jordan and Egypt play a large role in the situation we're discussing - they are a part of the local system that includes Palestine and Israel.

When discussing the war crimes committed by a specific state, to not mention OTHER states is not a "lie of omission" nor a "lack of nuance". Your argument makes no sense.

I mean, are you trying to make the argument "Countries other than Israel have done bad things to Palestine, and yet Hamas has not retaliated as heavily against them"? Because that would be an ACTUAL argument you could make. I mean, it would be a bad argument, but at least it would be an argument. Right now, you're not saying anything other than "By not mentioning X you are somehow lacking nuance or lying by omission in some way that I can't explain or elaborate upon."

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Annexation of territory can advance a nation's interests, but even if we talk about protecting rather than advancing it, Russian propaganda has repeatedly tried to sell the invasion as "protecting" Russia from NATO. It's false, hyperbolic, and hostile propaganda, but it is the basis on which many people justify the invasion.

But in contradistinction to people like Putin and Xi, who may yet do something really world-changing in the irrational sense, but have yet to press that set of buttons, what are the motivations at the core of Hamas? The people who did the things they did, in that group, appeared to act in shameless delight. Did any of the individuals in that group, do any of those things a couple days ago, with a half a minute of regret within themselves? Or did they snicker the whole day, as they went from spot to spot, and road to road?

There are bad actors in the world who do bad things, and criminals everywhere who have done bad things. But when these people come before judges, is it not common for the judge to analyze the criminal for remorse and level of intent? For overt maliciousness, that the criminal fully intended to pursue? So if the hamas militant from this situation was before the judge who looked for these qualities in their character, would said militant laugh at the judge, or would they breakdown?

 

[icehorse]

When discussing the war crimes committed by a specific state, to not mention OTHER states is not a "lie of omission" nor a "lack of nuance". Your argument makes no sense.

I mean, are you trying to make the argument "Countries other than Israel have done bad things to Palestine, and yet Hamas has not retaliated as heavily against them"? Because that would be an ACTUAL argument you could make. I mean, it would be a bad argument, but at least it would be an argument. Right now, you're not saying anything other than "By not mentioning X you are somehow lacking nuance or lying by omission in some way that I can't explain or elaborate upon."

Do you agree that Hamas hates Jews?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Do you agree that Hamas hates Jews?

Yeppers. I've said they're antisemites multiple times.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But in contradistinction to people like Putin and Xi, who may yet do something really world-changing in the irrational sense, but have yet to press that set of buttons, what are the motivations at the core of Hamas? The people who did the things they did, in that group, appeared to act in shameless delight. Did any of the individuals in that group, do any of those things a couple days ago, with a half a minute of regret within themselves? Or did they snicker the whole day, as they went from spot to spot, and road to road?

There are bad actors in the world who do bad things, and criminals everywhere who have done bad things. But when these people come before judges, is it not common for the judge to analyze the criminal for remorse and level of intent? For overt maliciousness, that the criminal fully intended to pursue? So if the hamas militant from this situation was before the judge who looked for these qualities in their character, would said militant laugh at the judge, or would they breakdown?

The post I was responding to was about the general issue of moral considerations in the context of protecting a nation's interests. I don't think Hamas is protecting Palestinians' interests or is concerned about moral considerations either, which is especially evident in its mass murder of civilians. It seems to me similar to other violent extremist groups like al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc.

 

[icehorse]

Yeppers. I've said they're antisemites multiple times.

Agreed. I see the Palestinians as pawns of stronger Jew hating countries. So the non-Jews who have been oppressing Palestinians for decades get a sort of "get out of jail free" card. It's messier to report on / think about Muslims oppressing other Muslims. Much simpler to blame the Jews.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Agreed. I see the Palestinians as pawns of stronger Jew hating countries. So the non-Jews who have been oppressing Palestinians for decades get a sort of "get out of jail free" card. It's messier to report on / think about Muslims oppressing other Muslims. Much simpler to blame the Jews.

Okay.

So, who should we blame when Israel oppresses them?

 

[icehorse]

The post I was responding to was about the general issue of moral considerations in the context of protecting a nation's interests. I don't think Hamas is protecting Palestinians' interests or is concerned about moral considerations either, which is especially evident in its mass murder of civilians. It seems to me similar to other violent extremist groups like al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc.

But heaven forbid we consider political Islam (a redundancy), to be a factor !

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But heaven forbid we consider political Islam (a redundancy), to be a factor !

Weird for you to say this immediately after a post decrying blaming Jews for the persecution of Palestinians. Are you against blaming religious groups for geopolitical violence except in the case of Islam?

 

[icehorse]

Okay.

So, who should we blame when Israel oppresses them?

If we really want justice and long lasting peace, I think we have to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. One example would be to carve out land for Palestinians that includes a bit of Jordan and a bit of the Sinai, Gaza, and a bit of southern Israel.

Everyone has some skin in the game, not just Israel.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If we really want justice and long lasting peace, I think we have to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. One example would be to carve out land for Palestinians that includes a bit of Jordan and a bit of the Sinai, Gaza, and a bit of southern Israel.

Everyone has some skin in the game, not just Israel.

Okay. But I'll ask again: When Israel is committing human rights abuses and war crimes against Palestine, who do we blame for it?

I mean, are we allowed to blame Israel or not?

 

[Debater Slayer]

But heaven forbid we consider political Islam (a redundancy), to be a factor !

Religious extremism and antisemitism are definitely core parts of Hamas' ideology. I think looking at religious extremism as a symptom with root causes to be addressed in the geopolitical and socioeconomic context in which they originated or gained foothold is the most reliable way to uproot it.

 

[icehorse]

Okay. But I'll ask again: When Israel is committing human rights abuses and war crimes against Palestine, who do we blame for it?

I mean, are we allowed to blame Israel or not?

Yes, but I'd say not in isolation. If we're really gonna have a long lasting peace we must also blame other regional forces...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I see the Palestinians as pawns of stronger Jew hating countries.

That is true. It is also true that they are the victims of a roughly 56 year, increasingly cynical occupation.

 

[icehorse]

That is true. It is also true that they are the victims of a roughly 56 year, increasingly cynical occupation.

what do you think of the proposal in post #371?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

what do you think of the proposal in post #371?

Government negotiators and geopolitical think tanks - most with a good deal more savvy than I -- have been creating and massaging maps for decades. I would not presume to offer a "proposal."

 

[icehorse]

Government negotiators and geopolitical think tanks - most with a good deal more savvy than I -- have been creating and massaging maps for decades. I would not presume to offer a "proposal."

I mean this with respect - what would you have us do on a debate forum?

==

That said, I would say that those think tanks are heavily constrained by "acceptable solution spaces". That there are large portions of the possible solution space that are political "no go" zones. For example, I'd be shocked if these think tanks are actually allowed to consider having Jordan and/or Egypt contribute land to a Palestinian state.

 

[exchemist]

Maybe I should just put you on ignore, would be for the best I think. You're definitely on my list of hostile and incoherent posters.

I did this a while ago.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For example, I'd be shocked if these think tanks are actually allowed to consider having Jordan and/or Egypt contribute land to a Palestinian state.

Three-state solution