What are some legitimate, general criticisms of Israel?

[Shermana]

What is the difference between "extreme" criticism of Israel and more "general" criticism of Israel?

Are such criticisms based on a more objective version of the facts than the "Extreme criticism"? Are they instead "Watered down"? Are they based on a consistent criteria of which other countries are criticized?

Name some examples of a "legitimate", non-extreme criticism of Israel and why you feel they are legitimate criticisms that you feel are based on a fair and fairly objective version of the events. Destruction of the houses of suspected terrorists? Okay, we can discuss that. Destruction of homes that aren't zoned properly with the proper permits? A bit different, does such criticism get held for other countries that do so, such as the USA? Calling the settlements Illegal? Are they really illegal according to international Law even if the UN says so? Settler's treatment of Palestinians in Judea-Samaria, that's a fair point of discussion, but are the actions of the Arab Snipers and Stone throwers taken into account?

 

[TommyDar]

I personally do not believe that there are any.

Once you scratch the surface and pay attention to both sides of the story - once you get beyond the name-calling (ie referring to Israel as the "Zionist entity") and once you objectively consider the Israeli side other than just dismissing it as propaganda, the anti-Israel comments really hold no water.

As for the settler's treatment of "Palestinians" in Judea-Samaria, let's just look at how any Arab country, from Syria to Saudi Arabia treats its own people to realize that even in the supposedly occupied territories, the Palestinians have it very good.

 

[Alceste]

I personally do not believe that there are any.

Once you scratch the surface and pay attention to both sides of the story - once you get beyond the name-calling (ie referring to Israel as the "Zionist entity") and once you objectively consider the Israeli side other than just dismissing it as propaganda, the anti-Israel comments really hold no water.

As for the settler's treatment of "Palestinians" in Judea-Samaria, let's just look at how any Arab country, from Syria to Saudi Arabia treats its own people to realize that even in the supposedly occupied territories, the Palestinians have it very good.

Ah yes, here's the "ex-Muslim" who thinks the only real problem with Israel is that it's just too awesome.

 

[TommyDar]

Ah yes, here's the "ex-Muslim" who thinks the only real problem with Israel is that it's just too awesome.

It's not about that, it's about supporting the lesser evil against the greater evil. Israel has no more problems than say, Denmark or the United States, but many of those problems are internal problems to be resolved by Israelis rather than for anyone else to say.

And I could never support any government that is against women' rights, gay rights, or which makes no attempts to address a racist society:

Racism in the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alceste]

It's not about that, it's about supporting the lesser evil against the greater evil. Israel has no more problems than say, Denmark or the United States, but many of those problems are internal problems to be resolved by Israelis rather than for anyone else to say.

And I could never support any government that is against women' rights, gay rights, or which makes no attempts to address a racist society:

Racism in the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you're supposed to be an Indonesian atheist from a Muslim family, why do you even care about Israel and Palestine at all, let alone almost exclusively?

 

[TommyDar]

If you're supposed to be an Indonesian atheist from a Muslim family, why do you even care about Israel and Palestine at all, let alone almost exclusively?

I do not care about the Israel-Palestine issue "exclusivey". In fact until recently I did not comment on it, but with these accusations that I am being dishonest I will not let you slander me. I responded a few times only because the Israel-Palestine topic seems to be a common topic in this forum. Actually there are a lot of things I care about, but I think those issues are uniquely local, and most of the posters being American may not be interested in them.

In addition I saw the need to make amends for my past and for my Muslim past. One of the reasons why I did not become a Christian, apart from disbelief in a creator god, is because the history of Christian anti-Semitism. I love the Jewish people sincerely.

And if you remember last week I was defending the good people of Tibet against Chinese propagandandists, until the thread got deleted.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject of Israel, as it is based on some of your other posts that I find that I totally agree with you on many social issues.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Odion, this is a sensitive, emotionally charged topic - it is no place for little things like facts. Shame on you lol

 

[Breathe]

Odion, this is a sensitive, emotionally charged topic - it is no place for little things like facts. Shame on you lol

I know, I know, I broke the 'don't let facts get in the way of a good topic' rule. I'm so bad.

 

[loverOfTruth]

What is the difference between "extreme" criticism of Israel and more "general" criticism of Israel?

Are such criticisms based on a more objective version of the facts than the "Extreme criticism"? Are they instead "Watered down"? Are they based on a consistent criteria of which other countries are criticized?

Name some examples of a "legitimate", non-extreme criticism of Israel and why you feel they are legitimate criticisms that you feel are based on a fair and fairly objective version of the events. Destruction of the houses of suspected terrorists? Okay, we can discuss that. Destruction of homes that aren't zoned properly with the proper permits? A bit different, does such criticism get held for other countries that do so, such as the USA? Calling the settlements Illegal? Are they really illegal according to international Law even if the UN says so? Settler's treatment of Palestinians in Judea-Samaria, that's a fair point of discussion, but are the actions of the Arab Snipers and Stone throwers taken into account?

May be Separate buses just a symptom - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews ?
Or may be you have special information regarding segragation of Palestinians in terms of transportations, roads and what not in Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc., in which case, you would obviously discount it as not general/genuine criticism.

 

[Shermana]

May be Separate buses just a symptom - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews ?
Or may be you have special information regarding segragation of Palestinians in terms of transportations, roads and what not in Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc., in which case, you would obviously discount it as not general/genuine criticism.

An excellent subject for discussion.

The issue of the "Segregated Buses" is a perfect example of yet another situation where context is totally forsaken, facts distorted, and the issue twisted into something it's not for the sake of a sensationalist story against Israel.

The segregated bus line that wasn’t | Anne's Opinions

Now without simply brushing it off or nuh uhing and handwaving it, let's look at the facts here:

Of course when one looks into the subject further, it turns out that there is no segregation, no apartheid, no discrimination, but simply an extra bus line to make the lives of Palestinian workers a bit easier. If this line also serves to ensure greater safety to Israeli civilians, why is this a bad thing?

Ah, it's an EXTRA bus line. An OPTIONAL bus line for those who don't want to deal with Jews and if anything helps them deal with those segregated roads which I shall discuss in the next post.

Now if it was the ONLY bus line for Palestinians, then all this international hysteria about the issue would be somewhat justified.

It's sort of like having optional all black schools in the USA. No one complains about those.

So as you can see, since this is an EXTRA bus line specifically for those who don't want to share a bus with Jews, how is it anymore segregated than an optional All-black school in the USA? Is an optional segregated bus line the same thing as a MANDATORY Bus line?

What's especially interesting is that this distortion of the facts initially came from Leftist Israeli news sites.

Thank you for bringing this excellent subject up for discussion, I am most pleased to show yet another "Criticism" that is based on lies and a militant disregard for the facts that anyone can look up but many wouldn't want to since the facts often get in the way of a good Israel bashing.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

What is the difference between "extreme" criticism of Israel and more "general" criticism of Israel?

I think the greatest criticism of Israel is between 1967 and the first Intifada. The Palestinian people were very peaceful. Now the PLO leadership were not. That is not the point. The average person on the street were. Israel just engaged in a form of Apartheid . You can only kick people so long before they blow. This is what we are seeing now. It is just to bad the Palestinian leadership has such an uncanny skill in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Shermana]

Now as for the Segregated roads, I will get into more detail later when I return but I will share this actual road sign in Samaria to give a slight idea on why Israel does it and is willing to take the heat of international opinion for it.

 

[TommyDar]

Just as a reminder if we want to claim that Israel is an apartheid state because there are security checkpoints, or supposedly segregated buses, then what are people saying about Mecca, which is entirely off limits to non-Muslims. You are technically allowed to be killed under Shariah law if you are a non-Muslim and try to enter.

What about the case of Mount Athos in Greece which is off limits to all but a one-half of a small sect of Christians, where only Christian men can enter?

What about the case of racial apartheid in many other countries, regions and states, such as in many Eastern Asian nations, as well as Russia?

Apartheid Japan-style | Sociology & Social Policy | Times Higher Education

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Did you even bother to read the article you linked? It has nothing to do with what you are discussing.

What is basically describes is old boys clubs where alumni are treated favourably and people (including fellow japanese) not from those schools are treated unfavourably; the comparison to even any of the examples you gave (let alone Israel) is bizarre.

 

[TommyDar]

Did you even bother to read the article you linked? It has nothing to do with what you are discussing.

It has quite a lot actually to do with the treatment of non-Japanese in Japan. I've been to Japan and although I think highly of their culture the way I was treated there made me feel bad. And I had an American friend who lived in Japan now for 4 years, and cab drivers will still try to speak English to him, waiters in restaurants still ask if he would like a fork and knife and other such things that made him feel as if he's not a part of Japanese society, despite the fact that he has a Japanese wife and two children.

"The Japanese simply do not want non- Japanese physically present among them for any length of time, embedded as individuals in the working institutions of their society"

"Foreigners who will not or cannot submerge their individuality have a hard time"

Do you think that is OK?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Read the entire article, dont cherry pick; it is about the behaviour by some people in positions in power in many established institutions to look favourably on applicants who come from their alma mater (the place they went), to give preferential treatment to those who come along who went to the same school/university they did; its about the old boys clubs and so forth - they reject japanese who do not meet that same standard too.

Given the fact that 98.5% of their population is ethnically japanese, assuming a non japanese looking person doesnt speak japanese is probably a relatively sound assumption; as is asking about a knife and fork - perhaps less so if he is accompanied by japanese co-workers or his family (if they appear japanese). That is not racist let alone segregation (which was what was being discussed); it is simple probability.

 

[Alceste]

Just as a reminder if we want to claim that Israel is an apartheid state because there are security checkpoints, or supposedly segregated buses, then what are people saying about Mecca, which is entirely off limits to non-Muslims. You are technically allowed to be killed under Shariah law if you are a non-Muslim and try to enter.

What about the case of Mount Athos in Greece which is off limits to all but a one-half of a small sect of Christians, where only Christian men can enter?

What about the case of racial apartheid in many other countries, regions and states, such as in many Eastern Asian nations, as well as Russia?

Apartheid Japan-style | Sociology & Social Policy | Times Higher Education

I can't tell if you are saying apartheid in Israel is OK because other countries do it too, or that only Israel's version of apartheid is OK because all those other examples of apartheid happen in places that just aren't as awesome as Israel.

Either way, it's a bad argument. Apartheid is not OK no matter who is doing it.

 

[loverOfTruth]

An excellent subject for discussion.

The issue of the "Segregated Buses" is a perfect example of yet another situation where context is totally forsaken, facts distorted, and the issue twisted into something it's not for the sake of a sensationalist story against Israel.

The segregated bus line that wasn’t | Anne's Opinions

Now without simply brushing it off or nuh uhing and handwaving it, let's look at the facts here:

Ah, it's an EXTRA bus line. An OPTIONAL bus line for those who don't want to deal with Jews and if anything helps them deal with those segregated roads which I shall discuss in the next post.

Now if it was the ONLY bus line for Palestinians, then all this international hysteria about the issue would be somewhat justified.

It's sort of like having optional all black schools in the USA. No one complains about those.

So as you can see, since this is an EXTRA bus line specifically for those who don't want to share a bus with Jews, how is it anymore segregated than an optional All-black school in the USA? Is an optional segregated bus line the same thing as a MANDATORY Bus line?

What's especially interesting is that this distortion of the facts initially came from Leftist Israeli news sites.

Thank you for bringing this excellent subject up for discussion, I am most pleased to show yet another "Criticism" that is based on lies and a militant disregard for the facts that anyone can look up but many wouldn't want to since the facts often get in the way of a good Israel bashing.

You missed out one important point of the context. That is the decision for the separate bus lines for the Palestinians stems from Jewish settler pressure/complaint and not from the desire to improve upon services for the Palestinians.

Your 'separate but extra' sounds awfully lot like 'separate but equal'. This is how it usually starts. Please note that, according to rights groups, Palestinians are already routinely barred from buses used by settlers. Watch it here : [youtube]50ZBeAkIIw0[/youtube]
Dividing Line - Segregation in Israel's public bus lines - YouTube
And now that the “Palestinian-only” line exists, Arabs will be turned away from other buses even more.

Another Washington observer, Jeffrey Goldberg, who is a staunch defender of Israel but a critic of the enduring military occupation, wrote(https://twitter.com/JeffreyGoldberg) that the issue illustrated that "Settlements are incompatible with democracy. Israel can't keep up the double-standard forever. 2/2" and "Bottom line on the Palestinian bus route: If there were no West Bank double-standard, there wouldn't be a need for separate bus lines. 1/2"

Peace.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Now as for the Segregated roads, I will get into more detail later when I return but I will share this actual road sign in Samaria to give a slight idea on why Israel does it and is willing to take the heat of international opinion for it.

Bottom line : If the occupation weren't there, those road signs wouldn't be there either.

It is funny how you use the consequences of a problem as a justification for further discrimination without actually looking at the problem itself.

I think we have discussed enough about the occupation ... so there's no point further going into that again.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Name some examples of a "legitimate", non-extreme criticism of Israel and why you feel they are legitimate criticisms that you feel are based on a fair and fairly objective version of the events.

The climate is too dry. Not really into the food.