What are the best arguments for Atheism?

[MTAIE]

Every argument that the Atheists have put forth as to why they refuse to believe that God exists has been refuted many, many, many times. It all boils down to an emotional wall that they refuse to lower. It is a 'will' problem. Not a 'logical' problem.

Yet atheists need the power of god to break down that wall.
Kind of a conundrum isn't it?

We're All Doomed. I'm sorry.

Please, tigrers, give me some examples of these refutations. I'm highly sceptical that there are any refutations that haven't been countered.

This is harking back a bit but:

God is a creator of our universe. He isn't that which we can't explain. And is love something you can explain using scientific reason. If you must use science to relate to everything you are going to live a sadly hollow life.

Chamberlain, the big bang theory presents the formation of *this* universe, not as the beginning of one continuous universe. It is the earliest point that we can trace back to before everything before it is unkown (using current methods). Take a look at some notes on hormones and neurology for your scientific explanation of love.


I'd just like to mention that the creationist stance is one that deliberatly misrepresents scientific facts in an effort to disprove atheism (those twats ). This is the horrible thing about it, without previous and in depth knowledge of science, it just seems to be sooo true. (oooh, i hate them, i hate them so much ).

 

[Pah]

MTAIE,

You're not going to last long here with language like your preceeding post

 

[MTAIE]

What language?

I wasn't serious about the 'twats' or 'hate them' lines (hence the and the followed).

 

[anders]

Serious or not, that's what you wrote and what we see. I agree with pah.

I hope that you will clean your language and stay on the forum.

Personally, I never ever use the word "hate". I don't want to wear it out, should I need it some day.

 

[Lightkeeper]

Every argument that the Atheists have put forth as to why they refuse to believe that God exists has been refuted many, many, many times. It all boils down to an emotional wall that they refuse to lower. It is a 'will' problem. Not a 'logical' problem.

Yet atheists need the power of god to break down that wall.
Kind of a conundrum isn't it?

We're All Doomed. I'm sorry.

Please, tigrers, give me some examples of these refutations. I'm highly sceptical that there are any refutations that haven't been countered.

This is harking back a bit but:

God is a creator of our universe. He isn't that which we can't explain. And is love something you can explain using scientific reason. If you must use science to relate to everything you are going to live a sadly hollow life.

Chamberlain, the big bang theory presents the formation of *this* universe, not as the beginning of one continuous universe. It is the earliest point that we can trace back to before everything before it is unkown (using current methods). Take a look at some notes on hormones and neurology for your scientific explanation of love.


I'd just like to mention that the creationist stance is one that deliberatly misrepresents scientific facts in an effort to disprove atheism (those twats ). This is the horrible thing about it, without previous and in depth knowledge of science, it just seems to be sooo true. (oooh, i hate them, i hate them so much ).

***MOD POST***

Please, even in jest, no name calling. Please tone it down.

 

[anders]

orthodox,

"Scientific laws such as the second law of thermodynamics (IE. entropy) stand in objection to the atheistic claim that the universe is eternal. To my understanding an atheist must believe that the universe is eternal because otherwise something created it and that reeks of the supernatural. Many scientific facts contradict this belief in an eternal universe.
Stephen Hawking, considered by many as the greatest physicist/mathematician since Einstein, wrote: "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron…. The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."(Stephen Hawking, A brief history of Time, 125)"

Can you name one single religion which doesn’t claim that the universe is eternal (or periodically annihilated and recreated)? Not just atheists believe this. I might have believed your last sentence of your first para. if you had written "belief in one eternal universe".

There are serious theories that contradict Stephen Hawking in an interesting manner. In a Swedish university course (a joint effort between the institutes of theoretical physics and of philosophy), the anthropic principle is discussed. One of the formulations of the "Weak Anthropic Principle" is "The observed values of the physical and cosmological quantities are not equally probable but they take on values restricted by the requirement that there can exists sites where carbon-based life can evolve and by the requirement that the Universe be old enough for it to already have done so." (J.D: Barrow and F.J. Tipler; The Anthropic Cosmological Principle (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1986), p. 16.)

chamberlain,

I can’t object to your “Now plants don’t grow where there is no light", if you define plants as "living organisms that require light".

I don’t believe in a god. My main reasons for not being a Christian would be valid, even if I did:
If there were such a thing as "sin against a god", I refuse to believe that it could be inherited. (Not even all Christian churches believe in original/inherited sin.)
I most emphatically protest against the idea that the death of a Jew some 2000 years ago can influence me in any way, now or when I die.
I discarded the idea that we will have another life after having died, long before I realised that is not only a Buddhist, Hinduist etc. idea, but is taught by the Bible as well.

 

[Zoot]

Orthodox,

There are two kinds of atheism - strong atheism and weak atheism.

Strong atheists are those who are certain that there are no gods. Weak atheists are those who lack a belief in any gods. Strong atheists appeal to the nonsensicality of descriptions and definitions of gods in order to assert their non-existence. Weak atheists appeal to the lack of evidence, the lack of any reason to believe in order to justify their lack of belief.

Personally, I am in general a weak atheist, but a strong atheist with regard to certain specific descriptions of God, such as most Christian descriptions. This means that I have no good reason to believe in any gods, even though some might possibly exist, and I have reason to believe that the Christian God cannot possibly exist.

Through reading such Christian authors as, C. S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, Philip Yancey, St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, L. Strobel I have come to see the sensibleness, provableness and desirability of the Christian Faith.

You were doing well until you mentioned Strobel. "The Case for Christ" is the most ridiculous book I have ever read. Unless, perhaps, reading Strobel convinced you that being Christian meant having the capacity to be very very hilarious.

Most of those other authors are good in that they write well, but I don't think they prove anything more than that some Christians are capable of writing well, which is a revelation for some people, a revelation that can sometimes shock someone into thinking Christianity makes sense. GK Chesterton, for instance, made it his business to write complete nonsense and then finish it off by declaring that nonsense is, in fact, one of Christianity's greatest selling points.

"Those? Those are speed holes. They make the car go faster."

 

[chamberlain]

So anders what do you believe happens to you when you die, nothing?
Thats it?
Answer me this is there any harm in trying to follow the best lifestyle to achieve a peaceful and loving. Have you lost anything in this life if you accept Jesus as your saviour and his offer of the good life for eternity. As this will possibly turn out to be true.

what are your answers to these questions? anders or any atheists
I am genuinely keen to understand more about your beliefs.
If you could answer my questions i would be really grateful :hi:

Chamberlain

 

[Ceridwen018]

chamberlain,

I don't want to speak for all atheists out there, but here's my take on your questions.

I believe that when you die, that's it. I do not believe in an afterlife of any kind.

There is no harm at all in trying to be the best and most peaceful and loving person you can be--I strive for that as much as you, and if everyone made that their first priority, we'd be a lot better off. If Jesus helps you to acheive those goals for yourself, far be it from me to tell you otherwise, but this forum is for discussion of such things and so that's what we do. I am a seeker of the truth, as are you, and for me, that means that I have a need and desire to question everything. You mentioned something along the lines of 'why not just accept Jesus, because it might turn out to be true and what will you have lost?' To that, I say that I would need to accept Zeus and Thor as well, just to be safe. What if either of them turn out to be true?

 

[chamberlain]

I am not familiar with greek or norse beliefs. I thought that these were ancient beliefs that no longer existed. However this is an interesting point ceridwin. I don't think it would be clever to believe these mythical as the are not reliably documented. Neither have they offered an afterlife for their belivers. Besides I would be going against everything my faith stands for.
But this truly was a good point, and it has helped me. Thats what i love about these forums.

Thanks ceridwin! :hi:
oh and am i right in thinking that you are answerring that there is no harm in the statements in my last post?

Thanks again

 

[anders]

chamberlain,

I agree with Ceridwen. If you strive for love and peace, your beliefs don't matter. They are inside you. What matters is what you do to yourself and other living beings.

I don't know if there are any believers in Zeus these days, but Ásatrú (following the old Nordic mythology) is on the rise, especially in the Americas.

Personally, I don't believe in any gods, demigods or supernatural forces, but find that following selected principles of Taoism, Buddhism and Sikhism suits me and does no harm to anyone.

 

[Lightkeeper]

I think what is on the rise in the Americas is any practice which has an emphasis on the Divine Feminine. Many of the pagan and neopagan practices place emphasis on the feminine.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I agree with you Lightkeeper...I've seen a lot of 'Mother Goddess' kind of ideas swirling about.

 

[chamberlain]

In your opinion is it in any way wrong or harful to have a belief that you may enjoy a great afterlife? (on top of doing good works)

Chamberlain

 

[Ceridwen018]

I guess that depends on how you look at it. Believing in an afterlife could only be hurtful if it affects the way you live this life now. I believe that now is all I've got--that doesn't mean that I'm racin' around hell bent for leather, but I do try to get the most out of life, ie, don't sweat the small stuff, etc.

Do you believe that how you live this life affects whether you go to a heaven or a hell? This definately has the potential for hindering your mortal life. I don't mean to give you the wrong impression here--I have morals and I stick to them, I'm not saying I think it's a good idea to go out and do drugs and prostitute myself because I don't have the fear of hell hanging over my head...but I guess that's just it--limiting yourself out of fear for hell, etc., could be a pose a problem in some circumstances I think.

 

[Zoot]

In your opinion is it in any way wrong or harful to have a belief that you may enjoy a great afterlife?

You mean like how some people believe they'll have a great afterlife following their suicidal death by flying a plane into a building or blowing themselves up in some other fashion?

Hm...

Nope. I'm stumped.

 

[chamberlain]

This is a good point ceridwen!

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I don't need to fear hell as a part of my beliefs. As a Christian I believe that no matter how much I try to be good I will fail because of my human nature in fact thats proven to happen. So luckily (from a Christian point of view) its not my works that will get me to heaven or keep me from hell.

Chamberlain

 

[Ceridwen018]

I'm glad to hear that Chamberlain. It dosen't seem right to me for god to use something like hell to keep people in submission...that doesn't sound all-loving at all does it?

Zoot,

You example is perfect for describing how belief in an afterlife could be harmful. That's a huge problem for our world right now, obviously...perhaps we should send missionaries over as well as soldiers...

 

[tumble_weed]

I don't want to speak for all atheists out there, but here's my take on your questions.

I believe that when you die, that's it. I do not believe in an afterlife of any kind.

There is no harm at all in trying to be the best and most peaceful and loving person you can be--I strive for that as much as you, and if everyone made that their first priority, we'd be a lot better off. If Jesus helps you to acheive those goals for yourself, far be it from me to tell you otherwise, but this forum is for discussion of such things and so that's what we do. I am a seeker of the truth, as are you, and for me, that means that I have a need and desire to question everything. You mentioned something along the lines of 'why not just accept Jesus, because it might turn out to be true and what will you have lost?' To that, I say that I would need to accept Zeus and Thor as well, just to be safe. What if either of them turn out to be true?

Hmm well I think that just about speaks for me...I try to be the best me there is but not for God or Thor or Zeus or any Unicorns

what I would like to know though is that if you find out that God and Jesus don't actually exist would you behave any differently?

 

[chamberlain]

"You example is perfect for describing how belief in an afterlife could be harmful. That's a huge problem for our world right now, obviously...perhaps we should send missionaries over as well as soldiers..."
Well said!!!
However could we just send missionaries? Or soldiers with non lethal weapons? Just a thought! :clap:

"what I would like to know though is that if you find out that God and Jesus don't actually exist would you behave any differently?"

If you COMPLETELY, 100% disprove the existance of GOD (which is impossible to do) then yes.
You cannot however, disprove the existance of Jesus. Even the pharisees who killed him would testify he exists.
This is a great question though. However for me personally it is hard to imagine life without God.

Anyway
God bless (you)

Chamberlain