Yes of course.
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What are the values of moderate Muslims?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Yes of course.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Dear Icehorse. I read through most of your posts. One just caught my eye.
You said that if you are to understand moderate Muslims or something of that nature, the worse place begin would be the Quran. Maybe you have already explained this but I would like to know your basis.
Are you also quoting one verse at a time? Or is it that you have heard someone else what you said either in words or in a website? What was your analysis to conclude such.
I edited this to add another. Yes, Quran does not promote total equality between women and men. Men have more responsibility in providing for the women. Women are allowed to suckle their kids for two years no matter what. Men cannot suckle their children so there is no doctrine as such. And men arent allowed to chase the woman away from the home if there is a divorce, she has to stay for three menstrual periods. Women can chase the man away if he is living with her, so that is equality if that word counts for anything and I believe this is a sound law. Also men dont get pregnant. There are certain differences like this in living an equitable life. I dont know what equality is because in my country maternal leave is longer than paternal leave in case of pregnancy and child bearing. No law is completely equal like that. I personally believe the Quranic law is much superior because it protects the woman and man in different ways understanding the differences in the sexes.
Peace.
You said that if you are to understand moderate Muslims or something of that nature, the worse place begin would be the Quran. Maybe you have already explained this but I would like to know your basis.
Are you also quoting one verse at a time? Or is it that you have heard someone else what you said either in words or in a website? What was your analysis to conclude such.
I edited this to add another. Yes, Quran does not promote total equality between women and men. Men have more responsibility in providing for the women. Women are allowed to suckle their kids for two years no matter what. Men cannot suckle their children so there is no doctrine as such. And men arent allowed to chase the woman away from the home if there is a divorce, she has to stay for three menstrual periods. Women can chase the man away if he is living with her, so that is equality if that word counts for anything and I believe this is a sound law. Also men dont get pregnant. There are certain differences like this in living an equitable life. I dont know what equality is because in my country maternal leave is longer than paternal leave in case of pregnancy and child bearing. No law is completely equal like that. I personally believe the Quranic law is much superior because it protects the woman and man in different ways understanding the differences in the sexes.
Peace.
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What is a Muslim expected to do if he feels that his circunstances warrant a deeper analysis than that of the (Quranic) Law?
firedragon
Veteran Member
He simply has to believe what God says
Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. - Quran 6:114-115
I suppose though that he should believe the Quran to be Gods words first, or he would not know what God has told him.
Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
LuisDantas. Maybe I should hear your explanation. What do you mean a deeper analysis than that of the Quranic law? Just give me an example.
Peace.
Peace.
Law, I have long maintained, does not have the means to consider the specific circunstances that a person goes through, and therefore can not ever be truly fair.
An example might be some family situation. Perhaps a man and a woman who have married and found out that they don't really want to live together after all. There are many possible reasons, up to and including either finding out that he or she is a homosexual after the fact.
It is my understanding that Quranic Law establishes very specific duties for husband and wife. They may of course divorce, but it is difficult for a divorced woman to marry again in Muslim society (or is that an unfair legend?)
It may well be better for both to establish mutually agreed arrangements (I will readily grant that this is usually a bitter challenge, but there are important exceptions that should not be glossed over).
Quite a few matters are simply too personal for laws to be fair with.
An example might be some family situation. Perhaps a man and a woman who have married and found out that they don't really want to live together after all. There are many possible reasons, up to and including either finding out that he or she is a homosexual after the fact.
It is my understanding that Quranic Law establishes very specific duties for husband and wife. They may of course divorce, but it is difficult for a divorced woman to marry again in Muslim society (or is that an unfair legend?)
It may well be better for both to establish mutually agreed arrangements (I will readily grant that this is usually a bitter challenge, but there are important exceptions that should not be glossed over).
Quite a few matters are simply too personal for laws to be fair with.
It seems to me that Muslim societies really aren't very prepared to deal with atheism.
firedragon
Veteran Member
If you require I can give you a detailed divorce law and process from the Quran. But let me say this, the Quran gives a foundation of rigid law. e.g. you cannot send the woman out of the home for 3 menstrual periods and if there is a child he has to be suckled by the woman for 2 years and you as a man have to provide for them for this period. Now this is a rigid law. It also tells that you must have compassion and tranquility in between man and woman which is not a law but something in combination will give you room for common sense.
Personal matters that you depict for laws is correct but applies for any and every personal situation. You can never with a million volumes cover every personal situation.
I agree that in typical Islamic societies a divorced might find it difficult to find a spouse. I am from Sri Lanka, this situation could be more difficult for any other society here in Sri Lanka. To be frank a Muslim woman will find a man more easily than any other major community here.
But that does not negate the Quranic teachings which are sound and very fair. People might not follow them, but the text is sound. Just imagine if the whole world followed the serene teaching of Jesus mentioned in the bible.
Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother, all societies have at some point being intolerant with many things. Tell me how many scientists were openly persecuted by the church.
Anyway I do not wish to compare and say who is worse. Maybe the so called Muslim societies are not ready to deal with atheism. Maybe they are not ready to deal with an outspoken woman. There could be millions of issues like this all over the world. But let me say something, God and your relationship with God is not between communities and God, it is personal, one on one. Societies dont portray religions. Religions are corrupted by societies. Thus judging scripture based on a society is absurd, as I always say it is like measuring the yardstick by the cloth and saying that the yardstick should be longer.
Peace.
I mostly agree, but there are a few points that I would appreciate some further comment about.
Yet a theocracy ends up imposing its view of God's will on its subjects, doesn't it?
I don't understand what you mean here. Maybe there was a typo? Portrayal of religions is certainly something that societies do.
That certainly happens, but since religions are supposed to heal societies instead, one can strongly argue that this is still the fault of the religion, not of the society.
Then again, I personally feel that societies create religions and heal them just as often. I do not take as a premise that religions are created pure. It is simply too evident that religion is a human creation and needs human supervision.
I respectfully, but adamantly, disagree. Scriptures can never take precedence over a society's actual discernment. They are transmission tools, aids in religious practice. They will be interpreted and used according to the discernment and agendas of people, and that is how it should be. We should avoid deluding ourselves into believing otherwise.
Yet a theocracy ends up imposing its view of God's will on its subjects, doesn't it?
I don't understand what you mean here. Maybe there was a typo? Portrayal of religions is certainly something that societies do.
That certainly happens, but since religions are supposed to heal societies instead, one can strongly argue that this is still the fault of the religion, not of the society.
Then again, I personally feel that societies create religions and heal them just as often. I do not take as a premise that religions are created pure. It is simply too evident that religion is a human creation and needs human supervision.
I respectfully, but adamantly, disagree. Scriptures can never take precedence over a society's actual discernment. They are transmission tools, aids in religious practice. They will be interpreted and used according to the discernment and agendas of people, and that is how it should be. We should avoid deluding ourselves into believing otherwise.
I personally believe that a religion is an instrument for us to maintain our relationship with God and also to help us live in the best way possible. Some people claim that religion is the reason behind the evil that human do, and others believe it's the package which gonna save us instantly.
The truth is, we human decide whether to do good or evil. I believe as long as we think, doubt, analyze, and look for answers sincerly, we will always succeed to reach to the truth.
The truth is, we human decide whether to do good or evil. I believe as long as we think, doubt, analyze, and look for answers sincerly, we will always succeed to reach to the truth.
firedragon
Veteran Member
If you look at societies and judge the religion then you are measuring the yardstick with the cloth. Do you understand?
In that case Atheism is really sick, so is Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. No point going back in history or quoting what societies belonging to each of these theologies or philosophies have done in the past.
If you make a deeper study, it is not the scripture that changes according to the societies agenda, it is the extrascriptural concepts.
Study the Quran and you will see. If you have not maybe you should make an effort just for the sake of truly analysing if your theory is correct. Otherwise we are not scientific are we? We are just processing like a dumb terminal.
Peace.