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What Are We?

mr.guy

mr.guy

crapsack
sunstone said:
Civilization has quite a few problems, but it might be on the verge of paying off big time.
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Sunstone, what do you think of the concept of the "progress trap", as coined by Ronald Wright?
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
mr.guy said:
Sunstone, what do you think of the concept of the "progress trap", as coined by Ronald Wright?
Click to expand...

Basically, I think he's likely right. We are currently using world wide 125% of the earth's sustainable resources, more countries are coming online as consumers, and the population is growing by millions each year. The numbers, if true, predict ruin unless things change.

I don't know about Canada, but in the US we're experiencing a backlash against environmentalism. Folks say it's gone too far. But consumerism has gone leaps and bounds further, and we are almost certainly living in an unsustainable economy.

Having said all that, Mr. Guy, I still believe there's some hope. Humans are pretty ingenious at times, and maybe we can invent our way out of this mess. I don't believe in any grand, once and for all, solutions. I believe in many small solutions, each of which solves 1% or 2% of the problem, adding up. I'm fairly certain, though, that the American lifestyle of consumption, which has been exported to the rest of the world, is going to be cut back everywhere, very much including America. And I'm fairly certain that won't be done quietly, without political havoc. So, eventhough I see some hope, I see no hope for the current lifestyle to be sustained. It will end either when resources run out or when we wise up to what we're doing. But one way or the other, it will end. That's my prognosis. What's yours?
 
Fluffy

Fluffy

A fool
The numbers, if true, predict ruin unless things change.
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Ruin is a very relative thing. The majority of the world live in poverty... they don't have nearly as much to fear as we in the West simply because they have much less to lose.

Any way forward is a way out. Whether that is through a violent dramatic shake up of the world's society or simply a brilliant technological breakthrough. That is just my thoughts anyway.

To answer the OP: We are a mere blemish on the universe. In the grand scheme of things, we are worthless. But we are full of potential and whatever comes will be, at the very least, a very interesting experience for humanity.
 
mr.guy

mr.guy

crapsack
sunstone said:
That's my prognosis. What's yours?
Click to expand...
That's difficult for me to sort through, considering how much paranoia i'm prone to. The "small solutions" you speak of are not in invention, but application in my view. The fact that wind power is usually shot down for "aesthetics" is the most telling argument for how ready we are to tell environmentalists were they can shove it. I'm also told that such functional progress towards sustainable mega-civilizations are such a mind-blowing rarity within a disaffected beauracracy that i'd hesitate to count on them to take note of "tangible" evidence for climate change short of a glacier formation breaching a designated non-glacial zone/lot; with due ticketing, fines, warning of zoning by-law infractions and presentation (in triplicate) of chamber of commerce minutes regarding the offending water formation. As i've been made to understand (be it poorly) the development of water irregation (bloopers reel and all), tacticts for sustained (and rejuvenative) land arability, sewage management (something some canadian cities aren't quite on board with, yet) and others are so very hard won, sometimes at the expense of a lesson learned with the fall of a civilization; at least such was my take on Ronald Wright.

On that note, it's been oft said that we are largely unable (as a species) to actually appreciate any abstraction of doom (in general) without a lot of persistant cohersion. While i may "believe" in drastic climate change, odds are i will still cry more over spilt milk (literally).

To speak of the export of American (consumer) values, i'd actually be skeptical with what success that could ultimately meet. Not because of any ecological reason, but am i wrong in assuming that in large part the american consumer is presently dependant on a sustained 3rd world? A technicality, but my poor appreciation of economics still impedes me from sorting that one out in great detail for myself.

Now, to borrow from some observers, planners and advocates of the urbane (most eminantly Jane Jacobs), our current projection for development does not include cities! I could loosely posit that throughout civilized history, there's been the rural (for sustenance) and the urban (for development). The suburb, regardless of scale, is dedicated to fantasy and north americans at large have taken no pains to make it even remotely sustainable. (note: I was shocked to learn that the initial post-war suburbia template was resolute upon the necessity of light rail transport. Guess who nixed that one?)

I would here (as hinted to in the documentary "the end of suburbia") point to "FREEDOM" and it's express relationship to automobiles; i don't consider the 40-50 year branding campaign to necessarily be in it's death throes just because the auto industries marketing department is now far less shy to spell out the obvious equation. Cars sustain the suburb; the magic carriage that transports you to your castle (to inject some lefty venom). This isn't just the dream anymore, it's the expectation.
 
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