What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I never said there were faults in the Catholic Church. I never brought that up as my point. I said people see so much negativity in The Church that I wonder if people indoctrinated in it have ever experienced the spiritual and positive nature The Church (all liturgical Churches) are.

Here's what you actually said (in response to shunyadragon's point about the failings of the Church):

How can you judge the body of Christ based on the political history of the Church?

If "the Church" and "the body of Christ" mean the same thing, then what you're asking could be rephrased as "how can you judge the Church based on its political history?" Does that reflect your intended meaning?

When I was Catholic, I'd be shocked and insulted (well I was) when someone dislike the Church I was in body with because of, say, a hand full of priest who molested little boys. I thought "how do they know my relationship with christ by the church by what other people did?" When you accuse the Church, you accuse the whole body of Christ. (Body meaning group of people-a mass). You are not just accusing priests, bishops, and popes (unless it was explicitly stated here in this conversation; it was not) but everyone who is part of the Church.

Nonsense. There's a difference between pointing out an institutional, systemic problem and accusing every Catholic of sexual abuse. If you can't see that difference, that's really your problem to sort out.

@shunyadragon compared the Church with paganism. That means, to me and many Catholics, you are comparing a person's relationship with Christ to what they-Catholics themselves-feel are not of god. It's irony. Catholics do not believe in paganism because it is not part of Christianity.

Again: this is your problem to sort out. I get that everyone wants to think of their religion as special, but at the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just another religion.

Yes.

The Catholic Church is the body of Christ.

To simplify it.

A Church holds people who gather together in worship.
A body and mass means more than one person
Christ said if more than one person is present in his name, he is present
If you go to Mass (upper M) you will see more than one person.

Therefore the body of christ is present.

The Catholic Church is the body of Christ.

I'm not one to automatically accept something as true just because the Bible claims that Jesus said it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I posted this before to you and I should have to post it again, but here it is:

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.

Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.

"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."

The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."... -- Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too! - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

That speech was misrepresented in the media. If you see his full remarks, you'll see that his message is more like "even atheists can go to Heaven... by getting baptized and accepting Christ."

 

[shunyadragon]

Now you are both insulting and being dishonest as I have previously covered this along with links. For you to continue along this path just tells me that you simply disregard anything that doesn't fit into your bigoted paradigm. .

Again:

The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324...

To continue on in regards to non-Christians:

Those who have not received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329... -- Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

So, will you please stop lying as I have shown you this before along with some other links that confirm the fact that there is the possibility of salvation outside the CC, and your utter dishonesty on this subject is nauseating, and I know darn well that the Baha'is didn't teach you to be this way.

This not my view and you are being dishonest and misrepresenting my posts. I have reexplained my view and you are ignoring it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a play on words that gets you nowhere. I have read all the references for many years. The reference: extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the Church there is no salvation". The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "allsalvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."

Does not mean those outside the Roman Church and the body of Christ CANNOT be saved. All humans have the potential to be saved regardless of their present belief, ie Protestant or atheist, and it is the hope and desire of the church that all enter the Roman Church will receive the gift of Salvation, and become part of the body of Christ. The doctrine taken in context states that all those who of their own free will remain outside the Roman Church will not be saved,

Also in the Catechism: that while God instituted the Sacraments, he is not bound by them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here's what you actually said (in response to shunyadragon's point about the failings of the Church):



If "the Church" and "the body of Christ" mean the same thing, then what you're asking could be rephrased as "how can you judge the Church based on its political history?" Does that reflect your intended meaning?


Nonsense. There's a difference between pointing out an institutional, systemic problem and accusing every Catholic of sexual abuse. If you can't see that difference, that's really your problem to sort out.


Again: this is your problem to sort out. I get that everyone wants to think of their religion as special, but at the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just another religion.



I'm not one to automatically accept something as true just because the Bible claims that Jesus said it.

Sounds like youre taking this personally given your last comment. "My problem" is an insult. Who said it was a problem? I said my experiences not the whole world. You doing what every other christian does..state a opinion as if its fact.

The Church is the body of christ.

A body is a group of people. They gather in christ (like minded worship to christ) and Catholics call this a Mass.

The Church is not political but built up of individuals who make up the body of christ. Its your choice (not your problem) to connect the body with politics. Thats not catholicism. Not what i read in scripture, their ccc, nor in mass.

Take politics out and people may see there are people being accused by generalizing priest practices as if the Church (the people) had something to do with it.

Instead, refer to specific people. Have a problem with pope francis, talk about him. Have a problem with priest X or Y, talk about them.

As soon as you say The Church you are saying all people. It is an insult.

I gave what I thought of the Church. Its not my thing to put a religion down for its political affiliation. Thats not religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

Sounds like youre taking this personally given your last comment. "My problem" is an insult. Who said it was a problem? I said my experiences not the whole world. You doing what every other christian does..state a opinion as if its fact.

The Church is the body of christ.

A body is a group of people. They gather in christ (like minded worship to christ) and Catholics call this a Mass.

The Church is not political but built up of individuals who make up the body of christ. Its your choice (not your problem) to connect the body with politics. Thats not catholicism. Not what i read in scripture, their ccc, nor in mass.

Take politics out and people may see there are people being accused by generalizing priest practices as if the Church (the people) had something to do with it.

Instead, refer to specific people. Have a problem with pope francis, talk about him. Have a problem with priest X or Y, talk about them.

As soon as you say The Church you are saying all people. It is an insult.

I gave what I thought of the Church. Its not my thing to put a religion down for its political affiliation. That's not religion.

It sounds lie you are taking it very personal. I have not criticized the Roman Church for anything related to political issues and the church.

I have no problem with Pope Francis, but I do have problems with using a news release to selectively cite a Pope Francis Homely, which as 9-10ths_Penguin stated it misrepresents the homely as a whole. Let us cite the whole homely and straighten things out. I believe I correctly interpreted the citations in the news release.

We do agree that Roman Church believes it is the body of Christ on earth.

Our disagreements do not involve insults from my perspective.

 

[savagewind]

The Catholic Church encourages music and that is a good thing, imo.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Catholic Church encourages music and that is a good thing, imo.

So does the Mormon Church, and many other religious beliefs and denominations.

 

[savagewind]

So does the Mormon Church, and many other religious beliefs and denominations.

You are correct about that. I have just finished reading a book about Gregorian chants* and I discovered that neumes were the beginning of modern written music. Neumes seemed to have been invented by a Catholic monk.

*but actually it was a murder mystery.

 

[columbus]

You are correct about that. I have just finished reading a book about Gregorian chants* and I discovered that neumes were the beginning of modern written music. Neumes seemed to have been invented by a Catholic monk.

*but actually it was a murder mystery.

Kinda like the New Testament, innit?
Tom

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It sounds lie you are taking it very personal. I have not criticized the Roman Church for anything related to political issues and the church.

I have no problem with Pope Francis, but I do have problems with using a news release to selectively cite a Pope Francis Homely, which as 9-10ths_Penguin stated it misrepresents the homely as a whole. Let us cite the whole homely and straighten things out. I believe I correctly interpreted the citations in the news release.

We do agree that Roman Church believes it is the body of Christ on earth.

Our disagreements do not involve insults from my perspective.

I was speaking to 9 10th Penguin. I have to reply to you a bit later, but yes I have personal ties with the Church.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

personal ties -> Nazi photos showing Christian influence

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also in the Catechism: that while God instituted the Sacraments, he is not bound by them.

How can god not be bound by the sacraments he instituted?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe the comparison is valid, but of course, believers will not agree.

It insults Catholics who believe in Christ not paganism. That's the issue I always had. I know Catholicism is mixed with paganism. It is a Roman Catholic Church so there will be Roman Paganism in it.

The Church comes from the apostles not directly from Jesus christ as many protestants say their views come from. Scripture was decided by the Church, written by the apostles who shaped the Church, and interpreted by theologians etc of the Church. Whether one wants to accuse Orthodox Catholics or Roman Catholics is up to the person.

I just see negativity in anti-church views and comparing it to paganism (as if paganism is some sort of sin) is just, well, wrong.

 

[shunyadragon]

personal ties -> Nazi photos showing Christian influence

Oh . . . heavy!

 

[shunyadragon]

It insults Catholics who believe in Christ not paganism. That's the issue I always had. I know Catholicism is mixed with paganism. It is a Roman Catholic Church so there will be Roman Paganism in it.

Believers, such as yourself, of course, believe that the Roman Church is 'Universal' therefore Catholic, but I am not a believer, therefore I do not consider the Roman Church Catholic. I consider it the Roman Church under the Bishop of Rome, one among many churches. Likewise I do not expect the believers share my belief that many aspects of the Roman Church are pagan, or have distinct pagan roots, such as the Divine role of Mary, the Trinity, inherited guilt, and of course Christian holidays, are just a few of the pagan attributes of not only the Roman Church, but to a limited extent many other churches. The nature of God being a Trinity is NOT shared by Judaism at any point in their history, which argues like I do for strict monotheism, and only vaguely interpreted from scripture.

The Church comes from the apostles not directly from Jesus Christ as many protestants say their views come from. Scripture was decided by the Church, written by the apostles who shaped the Church, and interpreted by theologians etc of the Church. Whether one wants to accuse Orthodox Catholics or Roman Catholics is up to the person.

Actually, it is the Church Fathers the Roman Church appeals to for the doctrine with some references from the NT, which the protestants contest:
extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the Church there is no salvation". The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "allsalvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."

Does not mean those outside the Roman Church and the body of Christ CANNOT be saved. All humans have the potential to be saved regardless of their present belief, ie Protestant or atheist, and it is the hope and desire of the church that all enter the Roman Church will receive the gift of Salvation, and become part of the body of Christ. The doctrine taken in context states that all those who of their own free will remain outside the Roman Church will not be saved,

This is, of course, true from the perspective of the Roman Church.

I just see negativity in anti-church views and comparing it to paganism (as if paganism is some sort of sin) is just, well, wrong.

I can document, as I have previously, concerning the argument that there is definite pagan beliefs in not only the Roman Church, but persists in most Protestant divisions of Christianity.

The Genesis accounts,which are the basis for the Hellenist pagan view of inherited guilt and thus Original Sin, and the references to polytheism in the Pentateuch and the Psalms, have specific and documented origins in Babylonian, Ugarite, and Canaanite 'pagan' cuneiform texts long before and Hebrew texts existed.

 

[shunyadragon]

You are correct about that. I have just finished reading a book about Gregorian chants* and I discovered that neumes were the beginning of modern written music. Neumes seemed to have been invented by a Catholic monk.

*but actually it was a murder mystery.

Actually, periods and other marks in the texts of some of the Dead Sea Scrolls are now considered marks for singing the text.

http://www.okonsar.com/Documents/DeadSeaScrolls.pdf

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am not a practicing Catholic. I still love my "ex" but that does not mean we are in a relationship. We have to have both for me to be a believer.

Believers, such as yourself, of course, believe that the Roman Church is 'Universal' therefore Catholic, but I am not a believer, therefore I do not consider the Roman Church Catholic. I consider it the Roman Church under the Bishop of Rome, one among many churches. Likewise I do not expect the believers share my belief that many aspects of the Roman Church have pagan roots, such as the Divine role of Mary, the Trinity, inherited guilt, and of course Christian holidays, are just a few of the pagan attributes of not only the Roman Church, but to a limited extent many other churches. The nature of God being a Trinity is NOT shared by Judaism at any point in their history, which argues like I do for strict monotheism, and only vaguely interpreted from scripture.

I never said the Roman Catholic Church is universal. I agree more with Othorodox Church but all liturgical Churches have my respect Catholic and not.

I never said Roman Catholicism didn't have Pagan roots. (Hence the Roman in their name) Just how protestants compare Catholicism to Paganism makes Paganism sound like a sin. There are Roman Pagans on RF and so far I've seen, I hadn't seen anything sinful about their way of thinking. Maybe Christians don't know what pagan means.

Not saying you're wrong just wondering what your point is.

Actually, it is the Church Fathers the Roman Church appeals to for the doctrine with some references from the NT, which the protestants contest:
extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the Church there is no salvation". The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "allsalvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."

This is, of course, true from the perspective of the Roman Church.

Salvation comes from baptism.
Being part of Christ body comes from the Church.

The Church believes to be "fully" in Christ body, you must go through the Church (aka take all the sacraments of Christ given by the Church). They don't say you aren't saved. They just say you're not in full union.

I gave you Church documents, CCC, and such to say this very thing.

I can document, as I have previously, concerning the argument that there is definite pagan beliefs in not only the Roman Church, but persists in most Protestant divisions of Christianity.

I never said it wasn't. Most Catholics know Roman practices are in the Church. They just don't call it pagan because it has a negative connotation to it.

The Genesis accounts,which are the basis for the Hellenist pagan view of inherited guilt and thus Original Sin, and the references to polytheism in the Pentateuch and the Psalms, have specific and documented origins in Babylonian, Ugarite, and Canaanite 'pagan' cuneiform texts long before and Hebrew texts existed.

Christianity is in part a Pagan faith. Christians won't agree but there it is.

The issue I have is, why is that bad?

So far I read, all the Catholic teachings are in scripture.

But Catholicism is not sola scriptura. The authority doesn't rest on scripture alone. We can argue forever but you can't change the nature of the Church. Accept it and let it go.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Church is not political but built up of individuals who make up the body of christ. Its your choice (not your problem) to connect the body with politics. Thats not catholicism. Not what i read in scripture, their ccc, nor in mass.

You're talking about the only church with a seat at the UN. It used to have its own country. It's political by nature.

Take politics out and people may see there are people being accused by generalizing priest practices as if the Church (the people) had something to do with it.

When I refer to "the Church", I'm referring to the organization. This doesn't mean that every member is complicit in (or is even aware of) everything that the organization does.

Instead, refer to specific people. Have a problem with pope francis, talk about him. Have a problem with priest X or Y, talk about them.

No, because we're not just talking about problems with individuals. We're talking about systemic problems. Problems with the organization itself.

And frankly, looking at the problems of the Church as merely problems with specific individuals allowed the sex abuse scandal (as well as many of the Church's other scandals) to grow as big as it did.

As soon as you say The Church you are saying all people. It is an insult.

No, I'm not.

I gave what I thought of the Church. Its not my thing to put a religion down for its political affiliation. Thats not religion.

Like it or not, politics are a significant aspect of the Catholic Church. It lobbies governments and still purports to have its own country. The Church is political. Scandal-plagued and political.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're talking about the only church with a seat at the UN. It used to have its own country. It's political by nature

UN? Dont understand the connection.

When I refer to "the Church", I'm referring to the organization. This doesn't mean that every member is complicit in (or is even aware of) everything that the organization does

Church means a body of worshipers under one "roof" of like mind. Id use church as an organization and Church as the Body (not organization) no christ.

All churches have structure to it. Baptist have their own set of problems too. The Catholic church is not special in that regards. Their system doesnt reflect a persons and bodys devotion to christ. That is what the CCC says. Thats their doctrine.

I cant find the connection of the body of christ with politics. Maybe when I wasnt Catholic Id have that bias but I dont.

No, because we're not just talking about problems with individuals. We're talking about systemic problems. Problems with the organization itself.

The individuals make up the Church. Its not the body (people as a whole-Mass) thats the problem. Its the individual people. Some priest take advantage of their roles. Many popes have done the same. Thats not a reflection of the body of Christ.

We are talking about two different things. Cathlicism is a religion.

Like it or not, politics are a significant aspect of the Catholic Church. It lobbies governments and still purports to have its own country. The Church is political. Scandal-plagued and political

Talking about the body. I love among many catholics. Some are twice my age (in their late 70s). One lady cried because people tell her her church is bad and pagan. She said the priest who molested need to go to confession. Id add because of their mishaps, they broken the body of christ.

The way youre saying is like I can make an investment in the Church and earn interest off my Mass attendences. If there is a grievance, I can file a complaint. Dont worry about management, we trust they will define us as consumers since we paid for our membership in the organization.

I can see why she cried.