What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

[metis]

The Bible very clearly says that a bishop should be the husband of one wife. Not that he may choose to be married or not. But like so many other things the church chooses to ignore this and demand that priests and bishops must be unmarried. They make up there own rules for whatever reason they may have.

The church chose to go the celibacy route because there were serious problems with the clergy grabbing off property to gain wealth for themselves and property for their kids.

No church mimics what was done in the early church, nor do they do exactly follow what the Bible prescribes, such as...

does your congregation great each other with a "holy kiss"? Do your women remain silent in church? Do your women wear head coverings in public? Do your women dress plainly and without make-up? Are your leaders from appointees that can be traced all the way back to the apostles? Etc.

The church-- any church-- needs to be at least somewhat flexible to adjust to different environments, so if problems arise, they have to be able to deal with them. The issue of not having married priests was justified under Paul's statement that the ideal is not to be married and, instead, devoting one's life to God. Is that so wrong? Wouldn't it be better to have ministers that don't rely on high salaries but are devoted to God?

As one who grew up Protestant but attend my wife's Catholic church, I'll take the latter any day of the week and twice on Sunday?

 

[MJFlores]

If you actually read Acts and some of the epistles, you should see rather clearly the power of authority being passed on to the appointees of the apostles. It's in your Bible that comes from the CC, but you do have the choice as to whether you believe in what's written there or even putting any faith in the Bible itself.

3 nobodies by-passed apostle John while he was still alive and well - for the apostolic succession?

I think Peter was just inserted without apostle Peter's consent and that is the truth because there was no such apostolic succession.

 

[MJFlores]

1 Timothy 4:1-3
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
Douay–Rheims Bible - Wikipedia

Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,

Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared,

Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.

Celibacy and the Priesthood

The Catholic Canon Law prohibits marriage to its priests and nuns and prohibits married men to become priests.

Then metis quoted 1 Cor.7 apparently to justify that it would be better for people not to marry.

• 1 Cor. 7:8, “But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.”

• 1 Cor. 7:24,27, “Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which he was called… 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.”

used the pause [......] to hide the verses and cherry picked the verses, he could use. Therefore let us unveil 1 Cor 7 from the end.

1 Corinthians 7 New International Version (NIV)

Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”

But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

End of 1 Cor 7:15 - still I don't see any order about clerical celibacy. Will continue with the 16-40.

 

[MJFlores]

Continuation of 1 Cor 7:16 to 40 - still I don't see any order about clerical celibacy.

• 1 Cor. 7:8, “But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.”

• 1 Cor. 7:24,27, “Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which he was called… 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.”

Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is.

Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.

A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

The bible never prohibited marriage, but Catholic Canon prohibited marriage. 1 Cor 7 is for all who are married, going to marry and who like to be where they are. It is not a doctrine for priestly celibacy which is a doctrine of demons.

Can Catholics be Prohibited from Marrying in Lent and Advent?

Celibacy and the Priesthood

 

[MJFlores]

1 Timothy 4:1-3
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
Douay–Rheims Bible - Wikipedia

Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,

Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared,

Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.

Matthew 6[16]"And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[17] But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
[18] that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

You cited Matt 6:16-18 but Jesus mentioned nothing about abstaining from meats.

Are Catholics Supposed to Abstain from Meat Every Friday?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Catholic way is that if the Bible says something they do not like they make up some excuse why they do not have to follow it.

 

[pearl]

The Catholic way is that if the Bible says something they do not like they make up some excuse why they do not have to follow it.

Like what?

 

[Fool]

Just wondering if you could share your thoughts about Catholicism, if you have any.

it is the purveyor of a cult of personality.

 

[pearl]

As so many other teachings of the Catholic Church you think you know your confused as to what Apostolic succession consists of.

The pope is first of all a bishop. And as for a list of bishops they signify nothing more for the life and consciousness of the Church than does a genealogical chart for a centuries old family, its life does not depend upon the genealogical chart of its ancestors.
It is the teaching that is apostolic. Apostolic succession is not an individualistic mechanical succession of an individual to his predecessor but the entrance of an individual into a community. As a body the college of bishops likewise succeeds the college of apostles as a body. The Twelve were not replaceable. They were unique. Their role was eschatological, seated on the twelve thrones in judgment of the twelve tribes of Israel as Jesus commissioned them (matt 19:28, Luke 22:30).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Catholic way is that if the Bible says something they do not like they make up some excuse why they do not have to follow it.

That's more the Christian way in general than the Catholic way specifically, IMO.

 

[metis]

3 nobodies by-passed apostle John while he was still alive and well - for the apostolic succession?

There is simply nothing in the scriptures that guarantees that a specific apostle or any apostle must be the bishop of Rome. You keep saying you believe in the Bible, but then you post some sort of requirement that is never stated as such in the Bible.

used the pause [......] to hide the verses and cherry picked the verses, he could use. Therefore let us unveil 1 Cor 7 from the end.

1 Corinthians 7 New International Version (NIV)

I did not hide or cherry-pick the verses because Paul had reasons to say what he did about not being married. Again, how can you say you believe in the Bible when you continue to ignore what it actually says?

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

And I agree with that, but that doesn't negate what else Paul said. So, you falsely accused me of "cherry-picking" whereas you are actually the one who's doing it.

End of 1 Cor 7:15 - still I don't see any order about clerical celibacy. Will continue with the 16-40.

I never said nor implied that it was an "order" that's found in the Bible. But what Paul did was to set up an ideal that the RCC used to solve what was a serious problem back then.

BTW, PF said he is reviewing this and, frankly, I do hope he returns the church back to allowing married clergy. However, I really don't have a voice in that because I'm not Catholic.

 

[metis]

The Catholic way is that if the Bible says something they do not like they make up some excuse why they do not have to follow it.

I gave you a short list of questions that related to that in regards to your church, but I notice that you have not responded to them.

It's so easy to throw stones at the churches of others, but maybe it's time to evaluate your own church and denomination on those same standards you cite. I did on some different standards, which is why I left my fundamentalist Protestant church almost five decades ago.

 

[metis]

Are Catholics Supposed to Abstain from Meat Every Friday?

So, what's your point? Many Catholics fast, which is found and very much allowed that's in your Bible that was selected by the CC, so what's your problem with it?

Again, it seem that you simply pick & choose what's actually found in your Bible, and yet you claim you believe and follow it.

 

[MJFlores]

There is simply nothing in the scriptures that guarantees that a specific apostle or any apostle must be the bishop of Rome. You keep saying you believe in the Bible, but then you post some sort of requirement that is never stated as such in the Bible.

I did not hide or cherry-pick the verses because Paul had reasons to say what he did about not being married. Again, how can you say you believe in the Bible when you continue to ignore what it actually says?

And I agree with that, but that doesn't negate what else Paul said. So, you falsely accused me of "cherry-picking" whereas you are actually the one who's doing it.

I never said nor implied that it was an "order" that's found in the Bible. But what Paul did was to set up an ideal that the RCC used to solve what was a serious problem back then.

BTW, PF said he is reviewing this and, frankly, I do hope he returns the church back to allowing married clergy. However, I really don't have a voice in that because I'm not Catholic.

2 Peter 2:18
For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

I strongly believe that the Apostolic Succession is a fraud.

Peter died between AD 64 and 68
and allegedly he was succeeded as "pope" by:

1. St. Linus (67-76)
2. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
3. St. Clement I (88-97)
4. St. Evaristus (97-105)

When the other surviving apostles were alive and well like:

• Thomas died AD 72
• Philip died 80 A.D
• John died AD 100

These apostles received the Holy Spirit Acts 2:1-13

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

So the Apostolic Succession really doesn't fit.
If there is really a papacy (as in the title Pontiff) was used,
after Peter it would have been

1. Apostle Thomas then
2. Apostle Philip then
3. Apostle John

But the thing is the title "pope" was never used by the early Church of Christ. What does pope mean?

The pope (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas, a child's word for "father"),

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

This could only mean one thing, Apostle Peter never became Pope because he would not agree to it. The title itself means Father which would go against the instructions of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And how is the pope addressed?

One of which is HOLY FATHER - isn't that strange that the pope would be called like that? Because when Jesus prayed to God his prayer mentioned this:

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus prayed to God and addressed God as Holy Father - why give a title that belongs to God to a pope? Isn't this strange? In the bible we could read this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us - like celibacy, abstinence of meat which are doctrines of demons; apostolic succession which is a fraud and other doctrines (and there are many of them!) these are made by the man of lawlessness

The title pope - means father
He is also called Holy Father
Using father or Holy Father, the pope proclaims himself to be God and as a matter of fact - one pope already did it.

The prophecies in the Bible are true
It has been sitting there for centuries
And now revealed to you in these last days

 

[metis]

I strongly believe that the Apostolic Succession is a fraud.

How can you call it a fraud when it's there in black & white in your own Bible? Read Acts and the appointments the apostles make. Read some of the epistles, especially Paul's, whereas he tells different congregations that they should follow the words and leadership from those whom the Twelve have appointed. This is how apostolic succession was established, and it was from that group that chose the books in your Bible. If they were so "corrupt", then take your Bible and give it to someone else because you shouldn't believe that which was canonized by the "corrupt leaders" of the "corrupt church".

The rest of your post is just recycled word-mash, including some distortions from you that have already been corrected, such as the issue of "father", which I have explained at least twice here as coming from different words in Aramaic and Greek. I also explained the fact that "pope" was a title given later in time, and it was and is used in reference to the bishop or Rome.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

There goes another great example of finding excuses. The word father does not mean father because it comes from different root words. So when the Bible says to not call any man father it is really OK to call the priest father because it comes from a different root and means something else. Sounds like someone sinking in quicksand and grabbing a few blades of grass to try to pull himself out. The Bible says not to repeat prayers over and over but it is OK to repeat prayers if you are not really praying but just contemplating. The Bible says a bishop should be the husband of one wife but it is OK to require them to be single because in the past some were getting wealthy because of their wives. Excuses and more excuses. Why not just follow what the Bible says and you do not need excuses.

 

[Spiderman]

There goes another great example of finding excuses. The word father does not mean father because it comes from different root words. So when the Bible says to not call any man father it is really OK to call the priest father because it comes from a different root and means something else. Sounds like someone sinking in quicksand and grabbing a few blades of grass to try to pull himself out. The Bible says not to repeat prayers over and over but it is OK to repeat prayers if you are not really praying but just contemplating. The Bible says a bishop should be the husband of one wife but it is OK to require them to be single because in the past some were getting wealthy because of their wives. Excuses and more excuses. Why not just follow what the Bible says and you do not need excuses.

Follow what the bible says? Like excecute people for working on Sabbath. It's what the Bible says to do after all.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Yes and don't change the Sabbth from Saturday to Sunday. God said He worked six days and rested on the seventh. He made the seventh day holy and wants man to remember it. The church proudly admits that it worships on the first day of the week. And makes more excuses.

 

[Katzpur]

Follow what the bible says? Like excecute people for working on Sabbath. It's what the Bible says to do after all.

Yes and don't change the Sabbth from Saturday to Sunday.

Yes? Yes, execute people for working on the Sabbath? Good grief. What is this world coming to?

 

[Katzpur]

2 Peter 2:18
For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

I strongly believe that the Apostolic Succession is a fraud.

Peter died between AD 64 and 68
and allegedly he was succeeded as "pope" by:

1. St. Linus (67-76)
2. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
3. St. Clement I (88-97)
4. St. Evaristus (97-105)

When the other surviving apostles were alive and well like:

• Thomas died AD 72
• Philip died 80 A.D
• John died AD 100

These apostles received the Holy Spirit Acts 2:1-13

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

So the Apostolic Succession really doesn't fit.
If there is really a papacy (as in the title Pontiff) was used,
after Peter it would have been

1. Apostle Thomas then
2. Apostle Philip then
3. Apostle John

But the thing is the title "pope" was never used by the early Church of Christ. What does pope mean?

The pope (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas, a child's word for "father"),

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

This could only mean one thing, Apostle Peter never became Pope because he would not agree to it. The title itself means Father which would go against the instructions of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And how is the pope addressed?
View attachment 17327
One of which is HOLY FATHER - isn't that strange that the pope would be called like that? Because when Jesus prayed to God his prayer mentioned this:

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus prayed to God and addressed God as Holy Father - why give a title that belongs to God to a pope? Isn't this strange? In the bible we could read this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us - like celibacy, abstinence of meat which are doctrines of demons; apostolic succession which is a fraud and other doctrines (and there are many of them!) these are made by the man of lawlessness

The title pope - means father
He is also called Holy Father
Using father or Holy Father, the pope proclaims himself to be God and as a matter of fact - one pope already did it.

View attachment 17328

The prophecies in the Bible are true
It has been sitting there for centuries
And now revealed to you in these last days

While you make some good points, your arrogance overrides what you have to say, IMO.