What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually, the Baha'i Faith has the same status in the UN, and I believe the Baha'i Faith was the first to have 'consulting status' as of 1948.

No, it doesn't. The Holy See is considered a "non-member observer state." The only entities with this status are the Holy See and the State of Palestine.

There's also observer status, which non-state entities can get (e.g. the Red Cross and the European Union both have observer status), but AFAICT, no Baha'i organization has observer status.

This list from the UN says that the Baha'i International Community got special consultative status in 1970, not 1948.

Edit: consultative status is a significantly lower level of status than observer status: Observer status gives an organization privileges with the UN General Assembly, while consultative status only gives the organization status with the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). And (somewhat counter-intuitively) special consultative status is a lower level of status than general consultative status. Organizations with general consultative status are deemed by the UN to be concerned with most of ECOSOC's activities, while organizations with special consultative status are only concerned with only a few fields of ECOSOC's activities.

 

[shunyadragon]

You've got to be kidding? No changes with the RCC involving ecumenism, aye?

I cited the bottom line of the church on ecumenism. This is the bottom line that has never changed. The only thing that changed since Vatican II is the encouraging dialogue with other religions, churches and governments.

If you can cite anything different please do.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, it doesn't. The Holy See is considered a "non-member observer state." The only entities with this status are the Holy See and the State of Palestine.

There's also observer status, which non-state entities can get (e.g. the Red Cross and the European Union both have observer status), but AFAICT, no Baha'i organization has observer status.

This list from the UN says that the Baha'i International Community got special consultative status in 1970, not 1948.

The only difference is the word "state," which is the status of the Vatican State, not the Roman Church. The Baha'i Faith did applied and functioned as an NGO in 1948 forward, and worked with the formative period before that. Yes, they became consultative status in 1970. Actually the change from NGO to consultative status is only a name change. They are still referred to as NGOs.. The status of NGOs, consultative status, and observer status is in reality not much different, None can vote or take any decision making role in the UN.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, it doesn't. The Holy See is considered a "non-member observer state." The only entities with this status are the Holy See and the State of Palestine.

There's also observer status, which non-state entities can get (e.g. the Red Cross and the European Union both have observer status), but AFAICT, no Baha'i organization has observer status.

OK

This list from the UN says that the Baha'i International Community got special consultative status in 1970, not 1948.

Edit: consultative status is a significantly lower level of status than observer status: Observer status gives an organization privileges with the UN General Assembly, while consultative status only gives the organization status with the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). And (somewhat counter-intuitively) special consultative status is a lower level of status than general consultative status. Organizations with general consultative status are deemed by the UN to be concerned with most of ECOSOC's activities, while organizations with special consultative status are only concerned with only a few fields of ECOSOC's activities.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only difference is the word "state," which is the status of the Vatican State, not the Roman Church.

No, that's not the only difference.

The Baha'i Faith did applied and functioned as an NGO in 1948 forward, and worked with the formative period before that.

My car club is also an NGO.

Yes, they became consultative status in 1970. Actually the change from NGO to consultative status is only a name change. They are still referred to as NGOs.. The status of NGOs, consultative status, and observer status is in reality not much different,

No, they're very different. One is consulted every now and then by one UN committee, the other has the right to bring matters before the General Assembly and comment on matters brought before it.

 

[Oktay]

Just wondering if you could share your thoughts about Catholicism, if you have any.

I respect em but they do not follow bible they follow churchs and priests. Many catholics do not know what bible talks. So it is soo pitt.

 

[pearl]

The Holy See holds sovereignty over the state of Vatican City and maintains diplomatic relations with 180 other states. It has been an observer state since 6 April 1964,[56] and gained all the rights of full membership except voting on 1 July 2004.[57]

 

[shunyadragon]

If I didn't already know about Bahai before I met you I would have drawn some unpleasant conclusions about the Faith. I certainly wouldn't care to learn any more about it.
Tom

Careful attacking those that propose controversial view points with those who directly attack the Roman Church like the JW, who actually accuse it of being evil, and those like Oktay, who consider totally heretical and evil.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita said: ↑


Are you naive to think that everybody is going to respond the same like a herd of robots.

A level of respect is expected from hopefuly everyone regardless the religion. Religion should promote one to be more humble or positive in their aura. Religion usually changes people to help others. One bahai said it was in their tenants about not arguing or something with other religions. All three have a same persona of "if we disagree, we will avoid the convo. If we agree, we will tell you what we believe"...

But regardless, youve accused people, belittled people, and insulted me. Unless thats what your religion is supposed to do, Im seeing a contradiction in faih.

Get this: one of which actually hates the catholic church and is still well mannered. Something about Bahaullahs teachings promotes this well mannered outlook.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wow, I just looked at the poll results so far. I've got to admit I'm surprised. I had no idea so many people have such negative feelings about Catholicism. I didn't vote myself, as none of the choices applied, but I would have voted had their been an option that said something like, "I'm basically okay with the Church. Like all churches, it's got both good and bad aspects."

For me, some of it is about religion in general. This thread's about the Catholic Church specifically, but if you did a similar poll for any random denomination, there's a fairly good chance I'd respond with "dislike", too.

Also, as a secularist, I have a strong dislike of when denominations insert themselves into government affairs as the "official church" of a country. The Catholic Church certainly isn't alone in doing this, but it's one of the main culprits worldwide.

That being said, the Catholic Church stands out for me in a number of ways:

- the pedophile priest scandal, including its response.

- Mount Cashel Orphanage, mainly because the inquiry filled the news for a long time when I was a kid.

- it's the only church whose religious schools I pay for with my tax dollars.

- (related to the above) it's the only church that uses its power to block gay-straight alliances in my province's taxpayer-funded schools.

- it's the only church that limits my health care choices in taxpayer-funded hospitals.

- Catholics are the only ones (around here, anyhow) who do anti-abortion picketing.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that fought the legalization of same-sex marriage in my country.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that has literally enslaved people in my lifetime.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that has been implicated in human trafficking in my lifetime.

- the Catholic Church is the only church I know of that laundered money for the mafia.

These sorts of acts are things that I'm not - and can't be - "basically okay with."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thank you. To Catholics, though, they are one and the same. So its a double edge sword.

Well, if they're upset that the scandals their priests and church administration commit reflect badly on themselves, then they ought to clean house and stop these scandals from happening.

BTW: I see it as extremely self-centered how, when confronted about priests of your church beating and raping children, or people enslaving others in your church's name, your main concern is how it reflects on you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A level of respect is expected from hopefuly everyone regardless the religion. Religion should promote one to be more humble or positive in their aura. Religion usually changes people to help others. One bahai said it was in their tenants about not arguing or something with other religions. All three have a same persona of "if we disagree, we will avoid the convo. If we agree, we will tell you what we believe"...

But regardless, youve accused people, belittled people, and insulted me. Unless thats what your religion is supposed to do, Im seeing a contradiction in faih.

Get this: one of which actually hates the catholic church and is still well mannered. Something about Bahaullahs teachings promotes this well mannered outlook.

Well, if they're upset that the scandals their priests and church administration commit reflect badly on themselves, then they ought to clean house and stop these scandals from happening.

BTW: I see it as extremely self-centered how, when confronted about priests of your church beating and raping children, or people enslaving others in your church's name, your main concern is how it reflects on you.

It is like accusing me for defending my actual family even IF they sexual assaulted my siblings but not me and expecting me to say my family is bad even though you were never a part of it.

Its like blaming the government from taking tax dollars then get mad at spoilders who defend and protect their country regardless.

Its like accusing the church organization of child melestation and expecting because the church "hid it" it shouldnt affect the people who are grieving because their own priest sined thinking they should be angry as well.

I can go on with examples. Yes, the church as an organization has its issues. If you do not see it as a body of christ, you are litterally insulting catholics

And you do not care.

I dont know how to react to that

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is like accusing me for defending my actual family even IF they sexual assaulted my siblings but not me and expecting me to say my family is bad even though you were never a part of it.

You shouldn't defend rapists, even if you're related to them.

And I was "never a part of it"? I attended a Catholic Church for more than 5 years.

Its like blaming the government from taking tax dollars then get mad at spoilders who defend and protect their country regardless.

I can't make sense of what you're trying to say here.

Its like accusing the church organization of child melestation and expecting because the church "hid it" it shouldnt affect the people who are grieving because their own priest sined thinking they should be angry as well.

No, it should affect them. Every Catholic who knew about the pedophile priest scandal but kept attending and tithing anyway bears a share of the responsibility for how the scandal unfolded afterward.

The people who financed the Church as it moved pedophile priests to evade prosecution or as it paid victims off to buy their silence are among those responsible for the scandal.

I can go on with examples. Yes, the church as an organization has its issues. If you do not see it as a body of christ, you are litterally insulting catholics

And you do not care.

Not about that.

I dont know how to react to that

I feel similarly about your lack of caring for abused children, enslaved women, and all the other victims of the Catholic Church.

 

[columbus]

For me, some of it is about religion in general. This thread's about the Catholic Church specifically, but if you did a similar poll for any random denomination, there's a fairly good chance I'd respond with "dislike", too.

Also, as a secularist, I have a strong dislike of when denominations insert themselves into government affairs as the "official church" of a country. The Catholic Church certainly isn't alone in doing this, but it's one of the main culprits worldwide.

That being said, the Catholic Church stands out for me in a number of ways:

- the pedophile priest scandal, including its response.

- Mount Cashel Orphanage, mainly because the inquiry filled the news for a long time when I was a kid.

- it's the only church whose religious schools I pay for with my tax dollars.

- (related to the above) it's the only church that uses its power to block gay-straight alliances in my province's taxpayer-funded schools.

- it's the only church that limits my health care choices in taxpayer-funded hospitals.

- Catholics are the only ones (around here, anyhow) who do anti-abortion picketing.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that fought the legalization of same-sex marriage in my country.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that has literally enslaved people in my lifetime.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that has been implicated in human trafficking in my lifetime.

- the Catholic Church is the only church I know of that laundered money for the mafia.

These sorts of acts are things that I'm not - and can't be - "basically okay with."

I agree with you about all of these things. I could easily add a bunch of things to your list, I know the church really well. I don't have to resort to Shunyadragon legalisms. But I am also very familiar with the good side of the church and Catholic community. Part of the reason I am involved with the parish is that they tend towards inclusivity and have a great "Peace and Justice " committee.

I don't have any mushy middle of the road opinions. And I was taught how to be judgemental by nuns. Armed Women in Black!

Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

I can go on with examples. Yes, the church as an organization has its issues. If you do not see it as a body of christ, you are litterally insulting catholics

And you do not care.

I dont know how to react to that

This is a historical problem with this thread. It cannot be expected by those who do not believe that the Roman Church is the body of Christ and 'Universal' to simply agree to the Roman Church position. It is not an insult to disagree with the claims of the Roman Church and present alternate views, even though some may consider these alternate views controversial.

 

[metis]

BTW: I see it as extremely self-centered how, when confronted about priests of your church beating and raping children, or people enslaving others in your church's name, your main concern is how it reflects on you.

It is like accusing me for defending my actual family even IF they sexual assaulted my siblings but not me and expecting me to say my family is bad even though you were never a part of it.

Well, I'm going to be the monkey-in-the-middle here as I do believe both of your are correct, each in your own way.

Yes, there have been and still are scandals within the RCC and, as a matter of fact, my wife (and I subsequently) abandoned the church several years ago for around two months because of them. But the "calling" for my wife to return was great enough for her to do just that, and she's again very active and reasonably happy with the church's attempt, especially with this pope, to try and straighten out these problems. The smile and the dedication is back in her face, including when she goes with me to synagogue.

Sometimes we have to stop and think at two different levels, with one being the broader scope and the other being the more local and personal scopes. Like my wife, I do not defend the atrocities that the church leadership has committed, but it's not entirely fair to just focus in on them and ignore the good it's done and still continues to do for so many people.

My wife and I accept the church for what it is, much like we accept the synagogue for what it is, and neither them nor us is perfect-- whatever that may be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree with you about all of these things. I could easily add a bunch of things to your list, I know the church really well. I don't have to resort to Shunyadragon legalisms. But I am also very familiar with the good side of the church and Catholic community. Part of the reason I am involved with the parish is that they tend towards inclusivity and have a great "Peace and Justice " committee.

I don't have any mushy middle of the road opinions. And I was taught how to be judgemental by nuns. Armed Women in Black!

Tom

It's hard for me to take any good that Catholics do as a credit to the Church, because - for the most part - if you took a good Catholic and stripped the Catholicism away, you'd still have a good person. I don't attribute most "Catholic goodness" to the Church or its teachings; I attribute it to the fact that most Catholics - like most people of other religions or no religion - are generally decent people.

In any case, I don't see it as a package deal. There are plenty of ways to pursue "peace and justice" that don't have a side effect of helping to support, say, Cardinals who claim that condoms are infected with HIV as part of a European conspiracy to wipe out Africans.

 

[metis]

It's hard for me to take any good that Catholics do as a credit to the Church, because - for the most part - if you took a good Catholic and stripped the Catholicism away, you'd still have a good person.

I "hear" what you're saying, but I can't buy the whole enchilada as I have seen what it has done to some people with a checkered past. Maybe they would have "straightened up" anyway, but they do believe that it very much helped them. And the same is true with some in my synagogue as well.

If religion was so meaningless, it probably would have gone extinct, much like the dinosaurs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sometimes we have to stop and think at two different levels, with one being the broader scope and the other being the more local and personal scopes. Like my wife, I do not defend the atrocities that the church leadership has committed, but it's not entirely fair to just focus in on them and ignore the good it's done and still continues to do for so many people.

I think it is. Like I said to columbus, it's not a package deal. What good the Church does can be had by other means without accepting the bad, so we can't use the good to justify the bad.

You draw a line between the broader scope and the personal scope; these scopes often blur together.

Speaking for myself, the thing that made me decide to stop kneeling in Church wasn't an academic consideration of the Church's policies or issues; it was a vitriolic homily by a guest priest that was touring around from parish to parish as part of the campaign against the legalization of same-sex marriage. I decided that I couldn't kneel before an altar that was used as a platform for hate (figuratively - the priest didn't literally stand on the altar).

And I think it's problematic - perhaps dangerous - for us to detach ourselves from the larger ethical implications of our allegiances. When we strengthen a church with our membership or support it materially with our tithes, we're playing a role in that broader context you mentioned. IMO, putting blinders on with respect to that context means not taking full ethical responsibility for our actions.

My wife and I accept the church for what it is, much like we accept the synagogue for what it is, and neither them nor us is perfect-- whatever that may be.

I considered the Catholic Church for what it is and rejected it... which is also a valid approach.

 

[Katzpur]

For me, some of it is about religion in general. This thread's about the Catholic Church specifically, but if you did a similar poll for any random denomination, there's a fairly good chance I'd respond with "dislike", too.

Also, as a secularist, I have a strong dislike of when denominations insert themselves into government affairs as the "official church" of a country. The Catholic Church certainly isn't alone in doing this, but it's one of the main culprits worldwide.

That being said, the Catholic Church stands out for me in a number of ways:

- the pedophile priest scandal, including its response.

- Mount Cashel Orphanage, mainly because the inquiry filled the news for a long time when I was a kid.

- it's the only church whose religious schools I pay for with my tax dollars.

- (related to the above) it's the only church that uses its power to block gay-straight alliances in my province's taxpayer-funded schools.

- it's the only church that limits my health care choices in taxpayer-funded hospitals.

- Catholics are the only ones (around here, anyhow) who do anti-abortion picketing.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that fought the legalization of same-sex marriage in my country.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that has literally enslaved people in my lifetime.

- the Catholic Church is the only church of any significant size that has been implicated in human trafficking in my lifetime.

- the Catholic Church is the only church I know of that laundered money for the mafia.

These sorts of acts are things that I'm not - and can't be - "basically okay with."

You've made some legitimate points, and I can understand your position. Your answer is probably more objective than mine. I'm afraid I generally form my opinions about churches other than my own by looking at the behavior and actions of their adherents. I can say without hesitation that I have known fewer Catholics who were fanatical jerks than the average Protestant I've encountered (both online and in real life). I tend to look at religion in terms of what kind of people it produces. In that regard, the Catholic Church rates fairly high in my book. I know it has a lot of negative history, and I see no need to try to excuse any of it. I guess those things just aren't what I focus on because they haven't impacted me directly. That may be a flaw in my way of thinking, but it is what it is.