What are your thoughts on Chruch's refusing to wed gays?

[columbus]

Yes, this ^^^^^ makes total sense to me.
Why push the noodle?

Does anyone?
I've never heard of this except for right wing nuts talking to each other.
The tax issues are a separate issue. But the fact is that churches are free to marry gay couples if they want to and plenty of them will happily do so. I know the UUs generally will.
Tom

 

[miahmoseselias]

And now the great apostasy is upon us all. "As was in the day of Noah... "

 

[Norman]

Such as?

Norman: Hi Windwalker, shuch as this. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a network of food canning and distribution centers around the nation, where volunteer church members donate time to can food grown on the church’s farms and orchards or purchased from other sources. The purpose of this network of canneries is to provide food to those who have been caught in disasters or just caught short by an ever-declining national economy. Millions of pounds of food are prepared for distribution annually in the LDS canneries.

Recently, we have heard rumblings that the federal government has been paying very close attention to the church’s cannery network and that the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration have been imposing increasingly burdensome regulations and requirements on the LDS canneries. Despite the cutting-edge technologies and state-of-the-art equipment at these ‘clean-room’ quality facilities, federal agencies have been hitting the LDS church with improvised fines for “violations” they find during surprise inspections. Reports of an FBI “raid” at one facility where agents demanded a list of the names of the cannery’s patrons was especially troublesome...

...Why is the federal government going after the LDS Church? There are a number of reasons that come to mind. Obama’s nemesis in the general election was a prominent member of the LDS Church. Members of the church tend to vote in a conservative block. The LDS Church teaches the worship of God and His Son Jesus Christ, independence, morality, education, and family and traditional values–all things that are abhorrent to the current administration, which has proven its willingness to abuse its authority to go after those with whom it disagrees (Romney supporters, patriotic groups, conservatives, Christians, etc.). Also because Obama believes that “Charity” is wholly owned by the government and that churches have no right to participate. The government uses “charity” to gain votes to keep it in power. Thus control of “charity” must be taken from individuals and churches.

This has all come to pass by a socialist President who does not want Americans to be independent of the Federal Government. These services are for members and non-members who have a desire to store for a rainy day. This is not hording as President Obama put it, it is logical thinking and preparing. I personally have a one year storage of food and other items and I have had to a couple times because of loss of employment used from my storage. This is just comment sense but President Obama is trying to make it something it is not.

Numerous members of my Church have worked in volunteer capacities producing food and other necessities. "We now operate 113 storehouses, 63 farms, 105 canneries and home storage centers, 18 food processing and distribution plants, as well as many other facilities. These entities are not money making but are money consuming. My Church does not profit at all from these welfare areas. Obama has made his threat good and now we have shut down several of our canneries thru out the United States. Yes, Religious Freedom is being threatened and obviously the press tried to cover this news and suppress the information.

 

[Norman]

Could you be more specific about the imposition on the practices of the Mormons? I think that they should have lost their tax exempt status for their regular incursions into politics. But I don't know of any impositions at all.
Tom

Norman: you call it politics Tom, we call it morality, and that is when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints will always take a stand on, as is there right.
Here is just one imposition imposed upon my Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a network of food canning and distribution centers around the nation, where volunteer church members donate time to can food grown on the church’s farms and orchards or purchased from other sources. The purpose of this network of canneries is to provide food to those who have been caught in disasters or just caught short by an ever-declining national economy. Millions of pounds of food are prepared for distribution annually in the LDS canneries.

Recently, we have heard rumblings that the federal government has been paying very close attention to the church’s cannery network and that the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration have been imposing increasingly burdensome regulations and requirements on the LDS canneries. Despite the cutting-edge technologies and state-of-the-art equipment at these ‘clean-room’ quality facilities, federal agencies have been hitting the LDS church with improvised fines for “violations” they find during surprise inspections. Reports of an FBI “raid” at one facility where agents demanded a list of the names of the cannery’s patrons was especially troublesome...

...Why is the federal government going after the LDS Church? There are a number of reasons that come to mind. Obama’s nemesis in the general election was a prominent member of the LDS Church. Members of the church tend to vote in a conservative block. The LDS Church teaches the worship of God and His Son Jesus Christ, independence, morality, education, and family and traditional values–all things that are abhorrent to the current administration, which has proven its willingness to abuse its authority to go after those with whom it disagrees (Romney supporters, patriotic groups, conservatives, Christians, etc.). Also because Obama believes that “Charity” is wholly owned by the government and that churches have no right to participate. The government uses “charity” to gain votes to keep it in power. Thus control of “charity” must be taken from individuals and churches.

This has all come to pass by a socialist President who does not want Americans to be independent of the Federal Government. These services are for members and non-members who have a desire to store for a rainy day. This is not hording as President Obama put it, it is logical thinking and preparing. I personally have a one year storage of food and other items and I have had to a couple times because of loss of employment used from my storage. This is just comment sense but President Obama is trying to make it something it is not.

Numerous members of my Church have worked in volunteer capacities producing food and other necessities. "We now operate 113 storehouses, 63 farms, 105 canneries and home storage centers, 18 food processing and distribution plants, as well as many other facilities. These entities are not money making but are money consuming. My Church does not profit at all from these welfare areas. Obama has made his threat good and now we have shut down several of our canneries thru out the United States. Yes, Religious Freedom is being threatened and obviously the press tried to cover this news and suppress the information.

 

[Norman]

This is of course an internal question to the religion, any religion. It is not the law of the land to impose values, beliefs, and practices into religion, and absolutely not the other way around either, try as hard as some do to impose religious values on those outside the religion!

As society as a whole becomes more tolerant, more open-minded, more educated and knowledgeable, this will itself gradually bring about change from within the religious institutions they are part of. Change takes a very long time though. It takes key people at the top for it to begin to trickle down, and those key people arise from within the body itself. My favorite saying is that change happens one funeral at a time. I think that sums up a lot of what we see.

I can go into some length about this, but I think it's safe to say the government is not forcing religions to adopt its beliefs and values and practices. And it it my belief that those who are crying about their "rights" being stripped away, such as not being "allowed" to pray in school, taking "God out of the classroom", etc., are deflecting attention off their own personal religious agenda to proselytize others to their beliefs and values by having special status. If they government actually did legislate prayer in school, and that prayer happened to be Muslim prayer, once again they would feel they were being marginalized because it wasn't their religions prayer! It's pretty obvious the game there.


I am all for people having the right to choose their own partners for marriage, and to enjoy the legal status of the land. But I also would agree that if a church structures itself to say only certain people qualify for certain internal privileges, that should be their right to practice their religion as they see fit. If someone doesn't like what they do, go elsewhere, or work from within to change the system.

All that has happened here in laws like these, is to protect those in society who do not share those same beliefs and values of certain religious groups. As well it should be. I would not want to have some freaky fundamentalist group deny me the right to meditate because they ignorantly believe it's "of the devil", or something. Or force me to wear black clothing made of wool and not drive a car. Or say I can't listen to certain types of music, or a long, endless list of things that religious does internally, and sadly feels the need to spread to the world beyond its own doors. That's all that happening, is that right to NOT practice that religion is being enforced.

Norman: You are missing the point of the real problem Windwalker, Outside of a few important, well-defined personal liberties set forth in the document, the Constitution allows the people to make public policy through their elected representatives. When the Court ventures into policymaking in the guise of constitutional interpretation, it oversteps the role assigned to it under the Constitution. Judicial independence does not mean that judges are free to decide controversies or cases according to their personal preferences. The courts should stay entirely out of the domain of legislative lawmaking, leaving this function to the popularly elected legislative bodies and the elected chief executives who presumably reflect the will of the people. The courts in their state are legislating from the bench rather than interpreting the law. This reveals a widespread public feeling that the courts are revising the moral and cultural life of the nation by making policy determinations that should be made by lawmakers in the elected branches. What concerns me most about this widespread public dissatisfaction is that if not attended to it will threaten the independence the judicial branch must have to perform its function in our system of separation of powers. In the last few years, retired Justice Sandra Day O’Connor has performed a great service by leading a series of conferences at Georgetown University on the state of the judiciary. They focused on this question of judicial independence. The US Supreme Court over stepped the boundaries of redefining marriage and this will haunt them for many years to come. There decision is just part of a fight that really has just begun.

 

[Norman]

I never understood why churches have tax exemption status.

I would strongly suggest to follow the European way: let churches pay their due taxes and extra tax believers in those churches. If believers are not ready to sustain those churches, then there is no reason they survive, anyway.

And if things really get weary for them, then they can still pray. They believe it works if asked in the name of Jesus, so I do not see a problem.

Ciao

- viole

Norman: Hi vilole, I suggest you read “The First Amendment Religious Liberty provisions that have both a logical and historical priority in the Bill of Rights. . . . In sum, as much if not more than any other single provision in the entire Constitution, the Religious Liberty provisions hold the key to American distinctiveness and American destiny.” The free “exercise” of religion obviously involves both the right to choose religious beliefs and affiliations and the right to “exercise” or practice those beliefs. You want the European way, well, the real reason people came over here in the first place was to be able to exercise there religion with out the burden of taxation.

 

[Norman]

I appreciate that too.
But ask yourself," Why would someone claim that the tax privileges of churches are in danger"?
They aren't. But you believed that they were. At least you thought it was worth starting a thread about.
Why is that?
Tom

Norman: Yes Tom, it was worth starting a thread about it. What makes you think that Churches are not in a threat of losing there tax exempt status?

 

[columbus]

Norman: you call it politics Tom, we call it morality, and that is when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints will always take a stand on, as is there right.
Here is just one imposition imposed upon my Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a network of food canning and distribution centers around the nation, where volunteer church members donate time to can food

So, what you call imposition of morality I call food safety standards.
Got it.
Look, you can blame Obama as much as you want, but what I'm seeing is religionists who feel above the law.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Norman: Yes Tom, it was worth starting a thread about it. What makes you think that Churches are not in a threat of losing there tax exempt status?

The utter lack of credible threats to their status.
The USA is still dominated by Christians and I have never heard of a real threat to their tax funded gravy train. If you know of one, tell us about it.
Tom

 

[Norman]

Because they are not really not for profit charities. They collect money from members and spend the large majority of the money providing services to those members.
They do some charity, but it is not a large percentage. And they could keep doing it by separating the charity from the staff, buildings, etc. But they won't do that because it is a great scam.
Tom

Norman: So, what you are really saying Tom is that all religions are a scam? How do you know for example what percentage of tithing and fast offerings by the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints goes to building Temples, building wards, building stake centers, welfare program. We are not a paid clergy, are Church functions on volunteers and is a not for profit organization whether you want to believe that or not. Our Church does not publically blow there horn when they help with disasters all over the world, it is not money making but money consuming.

 

[Norman]

So, what you call imposition of morality I call food safety standards.
Got it.
Look, you can blame Obama as much as you want, but what I'm seeing is religionists who feel above the law.
Tom

Norman: You show your laziness of reading about these issues, we already had in place the best food standards in our canneries. Blaming Obama? What I see is the fact that you do not even know what he did. We were not breaking any laws in the first place. You are blowing a bunch of hot air and as far as food safety standards I can see that you are brain washed by the media about this topic.

 

[Marisa]

Norman: you call it politics Tom, we call it morality, and that is when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints will always take a stand on, as is there right.

I'd love to see the mormon church slapped silly for it's imposition into California's prop 8. It is not the church's right to prostitute itself into politics, but you can go around screaming and beating people with your bibles all you'd like.

 

[Norman]

True. Many gay Catholic couples (dont want to say there are none) may want their future marriage blessed by the Church. There was a post or threas someone said about one religion refusing a person communiom because she had an divorce and married outside the religion. Jehovah Witness, I believed.

I hate to say this, but if God wants to bless a marriage or grant that person blessing to be in communion with Him, No Church should play God and deny them that right given to them by God not any Church.

Norman: Hi Carlita, You are missing something here. The Constitutional right of Churches who can deny marrying men and woman with same sex attraction? Religion is all about God and every Church has there own doctrine and guidelines. Jesus Christ is at the head of my Church, it is his Church, man has no right to invade religion for a self gratification of same sex marriage and throwing away generations of seed for that self gratification. What you said really makes no sense at all, I am referring to your statement "I hate to say this, but if God wants to bless a marriage or grant that person blessing to be in communion with Him, No Church should play God and deny them that right given to them by God not any." Can you explain your statement?

 

[columbus]

Norman: So, what you are really saying Tom is that all religions are a scam?

No, that is not what I said. I believe that religions are commonly scams.
Tom

 

[Norman]

I'd love to see the mormon church slapped silly for it's imposition into California's prop 8. It is not the church's right to prostitute itself into politics, but you can go around screaming and beating people with your bibles all you'd like.

Norman: It is called Morality, Marisa, how many times do I have to repeat myself. Morality is not politics nor does my Church get involved with politics. By your statement you do not know about the rights of Churches and the Constitution and the Bill of rights. We do not force anyone to do anything as you purport, your comments about my Church are minuscule and atrocious. Your interpolating comment about my Church's right to get involved with Proposition 8 had to do with morality and Conscience, do you have a Conscience Marisa? Do you have morals Marisa? If you respond to this, I am not interested in any Diatribe or Harangue comments.

 

[Norman]

No, that is not what I said. I believe that religions are commonly scams.
Tom

Norman: I understand Tom that you are homosexual, do you belong to a Church? If not, is that because of your sexual orientation? Maybe other's might think that your intentions are a scam?

 

[columbus]

How do you know for example what percentage of tithing and fast offerings by the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints goes to building Temples, building wards, building stake centers, welfare program.

I don't consider any of that charity. At least not to the extent that they should be tax write offs.

My mother in law and brother in law have both been Mormons, sort of. I have learned a good deal about LDS just from listening to the folks who insist on telling me about it.
To.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Norman: Hi Carlita, You are missing something here. The Constitutional right of Churches who can deny marrying men and woman with same sex attraction? Religion is all about God and every Church has there own doctrine and guidelines. Jesus Christ is at the head of my Church, it is his Church, man has no right to invade religion for a self gratification of same sex marriage and throwing away generations of seed for that self gratification. What you said really makes no sense at all, I am referring to your statement "I hate to say this, but if God wants to bless a marriage or grant that person blessing to be in communion with Him, No Church should play God and deny them that right given to them by God not any." Can you explain your statement?

A lot of people still hold on to their belief in God but decide not to be a part of a religion. I feel if they ask God directly for His blessings in marriage, it should first and foremost be with that couple and God.

If not, it makes the couple depended on their religion to believe in God. No church I know says to leave your belief to be part of our religion.

As such, the couple decides whether they agree with their religion and dont marry or believe God will bless their marriage no matter what.

Since not everyone can marry in the way their religion requires, I am sure their God wont hold them back from marriage because they dont fit the requirements of their faith.

SGBLTQA included. No one should be denied their God given right to marriage

Unless

The couple believes God cannot bless their marriage. Its between the couple and God first.

 

[Marisa]

Norman: It is called Morality, Marisa, how many times do I have to repeat myself.

You don't get to legislate morality based on your mythology. Period. Keep on repeating it, though, until you finally get that you don't get to infect OUR government with YOUR mythology.

Morality is not politics nor does my Church get involved with politics.

California's Prop 8. Look it up.

By your statement you do not know about the rights of Churches and the Constitution and the Bill of rights.

Bull****.

We do not force anyone to do anything as you purport, your comments about my Church are minuscule and atrocious.

I chose my words carefully.

Your interpolating comment about my Church's right to get involved with Proposition 8 had to do with morality and Conscience

I'll say it again, you do not get to prostitute OUR government with YOUR mythology.

do you have a Conscience Marisa?

Does it matter how I answer that question? You've already decided, haven't you?

Do you have morals Marisa?

See above.

If you respond to this, I am not interested in any Diatribe or Harangue comments.

I beg your pardon? Did you just presume to tell me how to respond to you? ROFLOLPIMP

 

[Norman]

Speaking of churches and taxes one wonders if the L.D.S.
church sponsored banks had to pay taxes on the profit made
from financing the building of Las Vegas years ago.
The L.D.S. banks were of course in league with the Mafia
of that era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Las_Vegas

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,209863,209863

http://vegasjessie.com/2012/07/13/willard-romney-and-mormon-nepotism-a-las-vegas-connection/

Lots of documented history in the links if anyone is curious.
This has NOTHING to do with individual L.D.S. followers.

Norman: Now, you are just fishing jeager106, be careful of what you are fishing for, there are many spiritual piranhas out there. My Church abides by all laws. Your web-sites hold no water of truth that you are reaching for in your black abyss.