What are your thoughts on Chruch's refusing to wed gays?

[JoStories]

Norman: It is called Morality, Marisa, how many times do I have to repeat myself. Morality is not politics nor does my Church get involved with politics. By your statement you do not know about the rights of Churches and the Constitution and the Bill of rights. We do not force anyone to do anything as you purport, your comments about my Church are minuscule and atrocious. Your interpolating comment about my Church's right to get involved with Proposition 8 had to do with morality and Conscience, do you have a Conscience Marisa? Do you have morals Marisa? If you respond to this, I am not interested in any Diatribe or Harangue comments.

The minute a church uses its influence to affect politics, such as with Prop 8, it is dabbling in areas that should not be. Morality has little to do with it. You can take that stand but you (the LDS church) used its collective influence to change a policy of law. IE: they stepped over the line of separation of church and state and meddled in state. And btw, insulting Marisa is really not nice. You stated you are not interested in "diatribe or harangue comments" but is that not what you did when you ask her if she has morals or has a conscience?

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Should church's be punished for refusing to marry gays by loosing tax exempt status?
I post a while back that this might happen in order to force Church's to perform
weddings for gay couples and if I recall I took a lot of flack for even suggesting
such a thing could happen.

Well read this.

Churches Who Refuse Same Sex Weddings Could Lose Tax Exempt Status – Downtrend


Churches Who Refuse Same Sex Weddings Could Lose Tax Exempt Status
Now that same-sex marriage is the law of the land, there’s a very good chance that churches who refuse to perform gay weddings could lose their tax-exempt status.

The Daily Caller is reporting that in his dissent, Chief Justice John Roberts warned as much.

“Hard questions arise when people of faith exercise religion in ways that may be seen to conflict with the new right to same-sex marriage — when, for example, a religious college provides married student housing only to opposite-sex married couples, or a religious adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex married couples,” Roberts wrote.



“Indeed, the Solicitor General candidly acknowledged that the tax exemptions of some religious institutions would be in question if they opposed same-sex marriage There is little doubt that these and similar questions will soon be before this Court. Unfortunately, people of faith can take no comfort in the treatment they receive from the majority today.”

It’s inconceivable that a Catholic Church – or any house of worship – could be forced to perform gay marriages, even if their religion prohibits it. And if they don’t, they could lose their status as a “church.”

Is this unintended consequences, or was it liberal, gay-rights advocates’ intention to destroy the institution of religion too?

Thoughts?

I think we should respect churches. I am for equal rights. But that also means rights as a Christian as well. If we start forcing churches to do this then we are heading g down a bad road.

 

[Marisa]

That's a relief! And it would be doubly so if you would assure me that you don't lump all Mormons together when it comes to our stance on political issues.

I don't, like I don't judge all baptists by the disgusting and vile things Mike Huckabee has to say. But some christians can't get enough of him.

Fact of the matter is that there are more of you (believers) in this country than there are of me (non-believers) and our society still manages to prefer a secular government. Fact is, most of the founding fathers were some form of believer, even if "just" deists, and they still managed to form a secular government, a fact which in no way shuts me down as an atheist. Too often, we judge the founder's activities through today's goggles, rather than recognizing they were much closer to the enlightenment and almost every government on the planet being a theocracy than we are.

As staunch a straight ally to the gay community as I ever have been and ever shall remain, I am in no way interested in seeing the government force religions into performing rites outside their dogmatic beliefs. What Norman doesn't understand about me is that I am not interested in deconverting him, but neither he nor I get to vote on whether or not anyone has basic rights, of which 14 times before the most recent ruling SCOTUS determined marriage to be. And as disinterested as I am in seeing government prostitute the many denominations, neither am I interested in seeing those denominations infect our government with religious dogma.

In Norman's mind, I'm immoral because I lack religious belief. For someone like him, I'm not ever going to be moral, and it does me no good to answer his questions to me about my own morality because he already believes he knows everything pertinent about me. He's perhaps the worst salesman for belief in a christian god there is. There's nothing about conversing with him on issues of "morality" that make me think that christianity is what most christians want me to believe it is: all about love and forgiveness. Meanwhile, I work with a fundamentalist who believes homosexuality is every bit the sin Norman does but does not believe it's her place to vote on other people's rights. For this, and many other reasons, I'm happy to call her my friend.

 

[Marisa]

I think we should respect churches. I am for equal rights. But that also means rights as a Christian as well. If we start forcing churches to do this then we are heading g down a bad road.

This isn't an attacking statement, but why should I respect churches? I am not a believer. There's a plumbing business in my town with the following slogan "keep your wife in hot water". I understand it's meant to be funny, but I personally find it incredibly misogynistic. Should I respect it nonetheless? No, I have little respect for churches. But I have a great respect for the people who go to them. I do not respect your belief, I find it patently ridiculous for grown ups to have imaginary friends like 4 year olds do. But I respect YOU.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

This isn't an attacking statement, but why should I respect churches? I am not a believer. There's a plumbing business in my town with the following slogan "keep your wife in hot water". I understand it's meant to be funny, but I personally find it incredibly misogynistic. Should I respect it nonetheless? No, I have little respect for churches. But I have a great respect for the people who go to them. I do not respect your belief, I find it patently ridiculous for grown ups to have imaginary friends like 4 year olds do. But I respect YOU.

People want respect for what they believe that also means respecting churches. It starts with forcing churches to do stuff and then sooner or later you have all rights gone for everyone.

 

[Marisa]

People want respect for what they believe that also means respecting churches. It starts with forcing churches to do stuff and then sooner or later you have all rights gone for everyone.

I don't follow your logic here. I have zero respect for churches. I'm never going to have any respect for churches. IMO, they sell people fake illnessess and then sell themselves as the cure. They tell people they are unworthy and that they should strive for a certain brand of perfection while simultaneously telling them they'll never obtain it. They tell people that they are so vile that a human being had to be beaten, hung on a cross and stabbed so that they could begin to be just a bit less vile in the eyes of a god that would require human sacrifice to forgive his own mistake. I'm never going to respect that.

It isn't my problem that you believe that so intensely as to believe it constitutes your whole raison d'etre, your reason for existing. You DO exist and I respect that. I'm never going to demand that you subscribe to my disbelief. I'm always going to demand that the you be treated as fairly as I expect to be treated by governments and individuals alike. I'm never going to respect you because or for what you believe, but I'm going to respect YOU, because I'm a humanist. I'm also never going to demand that churches perform rites outside their dogma, but neither am I going to allow churches to step outside their role of the above and infect our government with that dogma. If you want to see individual rights slip away at a breakneck pace, look at theocratic governments.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

I don't follow your logic here. I have zero respect for churches. I'm never going to have any respect for churches. IMO, they sell people fake illnessess and then sell themselves as the cure. They tell people they are unworthy and that they should strive for a certain brand of perfection while simultaneously telling them they'll never obtain it. They tell people that they are so vile that a human being had to be beaten, hung on a cross and stabbed so that they could begin to be just a bit less vile in the eyes of a god that would require human sacrifice to forgive his own mistake. I'm never going to respect that.

It isn't my problem that you believe that so intensely as to believe it constitutes your whole raison d'etre, your reason for existing. You DO exist and I respect that. I'm never going to demand that you subscribe to my disbelief. I'm always going to demand that the you be treated as fairly as I expect to be treated by governments and individuals alike. I'm never going to respect you because or for what you believe, but I'm going to respect YOU, because I'm a humanist. I'm also never going to demand that churches perform rites outside their dogma, but neither am I going to allow churches to step outside their role of the above and infect our government with that dogma. If you want to see individual rights slip away at a breakneck pace, look at theocratic governments.

wow you are not a very friendly person. The church is the body of Christ. And most are good hearted people. Sure there are bad apples but most Christians are loving people. And they sale no one fake illness. Been raised going to church my whole life and never have i heard them sale people fake illness. People have illness that is part of life. The church does not use it to sell us anything.

 

[Marisa]

wow you are not a very friendly person. The church is the body of Christ. And most are good hearted people. Sure there are bad apples but most Christians are loving people. And they sale no one fake illness. Been raised going to church my whole life and never have i heard them sale people fake illness. People have illness that is part of life. The church does not use it to sell us anything.

On the contrary, I'm a very friendly person. I'm also opinionated, and unafraid to share those opinions and that often puts people off, most especially when my opinions freely shared force them to look at their closely held beliefs. My opinion of religious dogma is low, but my opinion of YOU is high, despite the fact that you just insulted me.

I'm not going to argue with you over whether your interpretation of your belief is right or not, what I gave you is my interpretation of that belief and why I have zero respect for it. Then I bent over backwards trying to make you understand that despite my disrespect for your belief, I have a massively high respect for YOU and you still managed to get pissed off about what I said. Basically, you proved my second point, which was that most believers self identify as their belief so much that they cannot separate themselves from it. Well, I can. YOU are not your belief. YOU are a much better person than that book asks you to be. And I respect you for it.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

On the contrary, I'm a very friendly person. I'm also opinionated, and unafraid to share those opinions and that often puts people off, most especially when my opinions freely shared force them to look at their closely held beliefs. My opinion of religious dogma is low, but my opinion of YOU is high, despite the fact that you just insulted me.

I'm not going to argue with you over whether your interpretation of your belief is right or not, what I gave you is my interpretation of that belief and why I have zero respect for it. Then I bent over backwards trying to make you understand that despite my disrespect for your belief, I have a massively high respect for YOU and you still managed to get pissed off about what I said. Basically, you proved my second point, which was that most believers self identify as their belief so much that they cannot separate themselves from it. Well, I can. YOU are not your belief. YOU are a much better person than that book asks you to be. And I respect you for it.

I am not ashamed to say my identy is in Christ. It was not until i found Christ that i begin to find myself. I belt my walk around having a personaly realtionship with Christ. I am not the type of Christian to tell gays they can't know Christ. Never have done that and never will. Like i sated before i am for rights for everyone. But that includes the churches right to say no to wedding gays in a church. That is why we have church and state. You don't have to agree with church in order to respect it enough not to force them to do something they can't feel comfortable doing. If we take away the churchs right then that the start of the goverment controling us so bad that we have no more freedom at all. I for one don't want to live in that kind of country

 

[Marisa]

I am not ashamed to say my identy is in Christ. It was not until i found Christ that i begin to find myself. I belt my walk around having a personaly realtionship with Christ. I am not the type of Christian to tell gays they can't know Christ. Never have done that and never will. Like i sated before i am for rights for everyone. But that includes the churches right to say no to wedding gays in a church. That is why we have church and state. You don't have to agree with church in order to respect it enough not to force them to do something they can't feel comfortable doing. If we take away the churchs right then that the start of the goverment controling us so bad that we have no more freedom at all. I for one don't want to live in that kind of country

You and I do not disagree on what a church should have to do. You get that, right? Or did you just read my opinion of religions and blot out anything else I said?

 

[BenTheBeliever]

You and I do not disagree on what a church should have to do. You get that, right? Or did you just read my opinion of religions and blot out anything else I said?

Just giving my personally view like you did. Can i do that?

 

[Marisa]

Just giving my personally view like you did. Can i do that?

Absolutely! And you can be pissed at my perspective of religions, particularly yours, if you like, and even at me if it's what you feel is appropriate. I just want to make sure you understand that despite that, I still respect you. We don't have to be friends, I'm good with that.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Absolutely! And you can be pissed at my perspective of religions, particularly yours, if you like, and even at me if it's what you feel is appropriate. I just want to make sure you understand that despite that, I still respect you. We don't have to be friends, I'm good with that.

Did i say i was pissed off? I don't get that pissed off that easy. I am just not afarid to voice my views same as you

 

[Marisa]

Did i say i was pissed off? I don't get that pissed off that easy. I am just not afarid to voice my views same as you

You told me I was unfriendly. That sounds kind of pissed off. Is this what we're going to do now, just go back and forth?

 

[BenTheBeliever]

You told me I was unfriendly. That sounds kind of pissed off. Is this what we're going to do now, just go back and forth?

No I am not pissed off. I just noticed you seem to have a rude attitude. Noticing that does not mean I am pissed off

 

[Marisa]

No I am not pissed off. I just noticed you seem to have a rude attitude. Noticing that does not mean I am pissed off

You interpreted my opinion of your religion as rude. I said nothing about you, though you felt it was necessary to call me unfriendly. I don't have a high opinion of what you believe. That says nothing about you, yet you chose to interpret it personally. In effect, you are expecting me to refrain from criticizing something that you believe out of fear that it might upset you. That's kinda silly, don't you think? It doesn't harm you in any way if I think christianity is poppycock, does it?

 

[BenTheBeliever]

You interpreted my opinion of your religion as rude. I said nothing about you, though you felt it was necessary to call me unfriendly. I don't have a high opinion of what you believe. That says nothing about you, yet you chose to interpret it personally. In effect, you are expecting me to refrain from criticizing something that you believe out of fear that it might upset you. That's kinda silly, don't you think? It doesn't harm you in any way if I think christianity is poppycock, does it?

Truthfully I don't give a crap if you like it or not. Like I said just giving my view same as you. You seem very opinionated I am the same way.

 

[Marisa]

Truthfully I don't give a crap if you like it or not. Like I said just giving my view same as you. You seem very opinionated I am the same way.

Are you sure you're not just a bit irritated, I mean you did feel it necessary to attack me at a personal level, despite the fact that I have bent over backward to make sure you understand that I think you're a very wonderful person? It doesn't bother me that you're opinionated, but you seem to need me to pretend to respect your religion more than I respect you.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Are you sure you're not just a bit irritated, I mean you did feel it necessary to attack me at a personal level, despite the fact that I have bent over backward to make sure you understand that I think you're a very wonderful person? It doesn't bother me that you're opinionated, but you seem to need me to pretend to respect your religion more than I respect you.

Irritated perhaps. Not cause of you not liking my Faith but cause I noticed a sort of attuited coming from what you are writing. Perhaps we both are reading too much into what the other person is saying?

 

[Marisa]

Irritated perhaps. Not cause of you not liking my Faith but cause I noticed a sort of attuited coming from what you are writing. Perhaps we both are reading too much into what the other person is saying?

Probably. What attitude are you detecting?