What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

Dude...you are really confused.

Your body will die.
Beyond that 'you' won't go on.
'you' keep insisting 'you' don't.

I will be going home.

Yeah? Who is it that will be going home? Will you get there via The Good Ship Lollipop, or via The Yellow Brick Road? Whatever vehicle you choose, I am certain there will be a problem when you reach the Gates, as dust, baggage, and toxic residues from the past are strictly not allowed in.

You don't actually KNOW that your expectation of an 'afterlife' is real.

I, on the other hand, (and I use the label "I" purely as convention), KNOW that I am here, now and create no conjecture about an afterlife.

Even though you are also here, now, you are actually somewhere else.

So who is confused?
*****
The Other Side

One day a young Buddhist on his journey home came to the banks of a wide river. Staring hopelessly at the great obstacle in front of him, he pondered for hours on just how to cross such a wide barrier. Just as he was about to give up his pursuit to continue his journey he saw a great teacher on the other side of the river.

The young Buddhist yells over to the teacher, “Oh wise one, can you tell me how to get to the other side of this river”?

The teacher ponders for a moment looks up and down the river and yells back, “My son, you are on the other side!”.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And death is real?

Depends on from where you are looking at it. At the atomic level there is no death. All atoms of a body will still be whirling merrily after one's death. At the gross level, yes, one's body will stop working and the person would be declared dead. That is what the first Sankaracharya meant by 'absolute truth' (Parmarthika Satya) and 'pragmatic truth' (Vyavaharika Satya). Yes, there is an after-life for the atoms of a dead body (if you like to consider it that way). They will disintegrate and become parts of other living and non-living objects. An atom of your body may become a part of a rose or a sedimentary formation.

 

[idav]

As I mentioned before, this is suggested by recent scientific experiments of meditators whose cerebral cortexes are consistently thicker than those of non-meditators.

This only further confirms it is the brain producing this effect. Like a muscle you've been working out like a body builder. Correlation at its finest.

 

[godnotgod]

This only further confirms it is the brain producing this effect. Like a muscle you've been working out like a body builder. Correlation at its finest.

But consciousness, via focused attention, is the active agent in doing so. Non-mediators also use their brains, but do not show this result. The brain wave activity of those in mediation is also very different than those of non-meditators. Meditators put out large amounts of Alpha waves, but the thinking part of the brain has been subdued.

 

[Bunyip]

No, but the materialist definition of "I" or 'mind' is the brain itself. If "I" is not present during sleep, then where did it go, if the brain is still active?

What? It didn't go anywhere - the person is just asleep. It's like asking where the light went when I turn a lamp off.

If the brain is still active, then "I" should also be active.

Why? What is so challenging about the idea that you are just asleep?

But what occurs is that the brain goes on a trip, creating fantasy images and scenarios for "I" IN THE ABSENCE OF CONSCIOUS ATTENTION. So if that is the case, maybe the "I" of the awakened state is also a fantasy-dream-sleep on a higher level. If you rely on the brain to provide a true picture of Reality, yet it does not during sleep, why would you trust it to do so during waking hours?

The past and currently sad condition of the world is a consequence of errors in judgment as dictated by the brain; by the "I". Obviously the brain does NOT provide a true picture of Reality, if the materialist view is a correct one. Why? Because the thinking mind creates concepts of Reality, which it then tries to superimpose over Reality as Reality itself. When they do not match, there is conflict. The "I" is self-centered, for the most part. Even when it seems to be altruistic, there are always ulterior motives involved. The "I" is still rooted in the old tribal brain which says: 'we vs. they', in which conflict is justified in the name of some glittering generality, like 'freedom', or 'democracy', or slogan like 'sempre fidelis', etc., adding a tone of nobility and pride to reinforce the reason for the conflict.

So, in both sleep and wakefulness, the brain fails to give us Reality. It is a limited mind which comes about, groping in the dark. Even science looks at the world in bits and pieces, never quite reaching a true understanding of what the whole of Reality actually is.

The experience of those who have seen these problems with the thinking mind have transcended the brain and it's offspring, the "I", to awaken a Higher Consciousness, one which, in spite of our broken world, does provide a true picture of Reality. Their descriptions of this experience are consistent one with the other even though they have been arrived at independently of each other, in different parts of the world, at different time in history. Their understanding of Reality is not a written, learned knowledge. It is just Reality as they awaken to it. It already IS, and is NOT a product of the brain; the brain is a product of Consciousness. As I mentioned before, this is suggested by recent scientific experiments of meditators whose cerebral cortexes are consistently thicker than those of non-meditators.

 

[idav]

But consciousness, via focused attention, is the active agent in doing so. Non-mediators also use their brains, but do not show this result. The brain wave activity of those in mediation is also very different than those of non-meditators. Meditators put out large amounts of Alpha waves, but the thinking part of the brain has been subdued.

Meditators are brain body builders. So right nonmeditators wont have that thicker part of the brain because they are not activating it. Yes you can detect by waves but works just fine with the scans that confirm those parts of the brain are being much more over worked with established meditators.

 

[godnotgod]

What? It didn't go anywhere - the person is just asleep. It's like asking where the light went when I turn a lamp off.

But the lamp is not off. In fact, the brain has free reign during sleep, in the absence of conscious attention. It does all sorts of wild things when Master is not present. Luckily, it is only a dream.

Why? What is so challenging about the idea that you are just asleep?

Nothing, except that, from the materialist viewpoint, if "I" is asleep, so the brain would also be, since brain = mind, or "I".. But it obviously is not asleep, even though "I" is not consciously present. This suggests that who you are, the "I" is not a result of cranial activity, but of consciousness. IOW, "I" exists only when you consciously think about it. Otherwise, even during waking hours, it is not there until you become aware of it. It is only a SELF-CREATED PRINCIPLE; an ILLUSION.

Essentially what you are saying is that who you are is dictated by the lump of grey matter called the brain, which is prone to gross error in judgment.

 

[godnotgod]

Meditators are brain body builders.

Well, no. The focus of meditation is not the brain at all. What occurs there is simply inadvertent. Usually, mediators focus on their breath. When they do watch their thoughts, it is from a detached position, sometimes called 'The Observer'.

The transformation that the brain undergoes comes about because of posture, breath control, relaxation, etc. IOW, under certain conditions created via meditation, the brain responds accordingly as a natural consequence. There is no conscious, active workout of the brain perse. The idea is to subdue the brain's thinking process so that another form of consciousness then comes into play. Zen people, for example, call this other consciousness 'Big Mind', as compared to the brain's incessant thinking and jumping about, which is labeled 'monkey mind'.

 

[Bunyip]

But the lamp is not off. In fact, the brain has free reign during sleep, in the absence of conscious attention. It does all sorts of wild things when Master is not present. Luckily, it is only a dream.
Nothing, except that, from the materialist viewpoint, if "I" is asleep, so the brain would also be, since brain = mind, or "I"

Why would you think that? Why can't the personality be asleep, but the brain still operating?

But it obviously is not asleep, even though "I" is not consciously present. This suggests that who you are, the "I" is not a result of cranial activity, but of consciousness.

No it doesn't, why would it?

IOW, "I" exists only when you consciously think about it. Otherwise, even during waking hours, it is not there until you become aware of it. It is only a SELF-CREATED PRINCIPLE; an ILLUSION.

Essentially what you are saying is that who you are is dictated by the lump of grey matter called the brain, which is prone to gross error in judgment.

No, not at all. What I am saying is that my personality, my consciousness is a product of my brain.

 

[idav]

Well, no. The focus of meditation is not the brain at all. What occurs there is simply inadvertent. Usually, mediators focus on their breath. When they do watch their thoughts, it is from a detached position, sometimes called 'The Observer'.

The transformation that the brain undergoes comes about because of posture, breath control, relaxation, etc. IOW, under certain conditions created via meditation, the brain responds accordingly as a natural consequence. There is no conscious, active workout of the brain perse. The idea is to subdue the brain's thinking process so that another form of consciousness then comes into play. Zen people, for example, call this other consciousness 'Big Mind', as compared to the brain's incessant thinking and jumping about, which is labeled 'monkey mind'.

Yes parts of the brain are subdued, that is why a specific part of the brain gets worked more during specific types of meditation.

 

[Ouroboros]

I will be going home.

I'm so glad that I'm already home.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes parts of the brain are subdued, that is why a specific part of the brain gets worked more during specific types of meditation.

And what are the cerebral cortex and alpha wave output associated with? the higher intellect. IOW, ordinary everyday brain activity is not of the higher type, as it is a conditioned consciousness. Apparently, meditation 'wakes up' areas of the brain that ordinary consciousness does not use, while subduing the thinking process.

 

[godnotgod]

Why would you think that? Why can't the personality be asleep, but the brain still operating?

During sleep, the brain concocts all sorts of personality scenarios. The reason it is able to do so is because the controlled personality of the "I" self during waking hours is not present. But again, in keeping with the materialist viewpoint, if the brain is active during sleep, and the brain is equivalent to the "I", then this "I" of one's waking hours should also be present during sleep. If, as you say, it goes to sleep, then the brain also would cease activity.

No it doesn't, why would it?

Because it is not present during sleep, when the brain, which is "I", is active.

No, not at all. What I am saying is that my personality, my consciousness is a product of my brain.

Yes, and so your behavior is dictated by the lump of grey matter between your ears. That same lump of grey matter can be fooled and is prone to gross error in judgment, as evinced by the past and present condition of the world, which has been directed by the brain.

People who have freed themselves from the dictates of the brain and its conditioning, follow consciousness, not mind. They KNOW, via the pitfalls, what the thinking mind does. Bypassing the machinations of the brain is called Transcendence. It is to see Reality as it is, rather than how the conceptual brain thinks it is.

 

[atanu]

Spirit in whose body?

You feel no connection to your body?
Are you beside yourself?

I asked "Spirit in whose body?" Probably you did not respond to that.

"I am", the Seer is distinct from body, which is Seen. But beyond the distinctions of the Seer and the Seen, the Being (the Existent) without consciousness is no Being. And, Consciousness if separate from the Being is no Consciousness.

So, my understanding is that the Being and the Consciousness are not dual.
.......

Which means that both you anf GnG are half correct, IMO.

 

[Bunyip]

During sleep, the brain concocts all sorts of personality scenarios. The reason it is able to do so is because the controlled personality of the "I" self during waking hours is not present. But again, in keeping with the materialist viewpoint, if the brain is active during sleep, and the brain is equivalent to the "I", then this "I" of one's waking hours should also be present during sleep. If, as you say, it goes to sleep, then the brain also would cease activity.

]

That doesn't make sense, my brain doesn't cease to exist when I sleep - neither does my personality.
My brain, like all human brains has some voluntary and some involuntary functions. The brain produces both my waking self and my involuntary functions - both come from the brain.

Because it is not present during sleep, when the brain, which is "I", is active.

Of course it is present during sleep, just not active.

 

[atanu]

...
Consciousness comes from live brains. ...

So, brain is not Conscious.

No one has seen a brain in a state of unconsciousness. And a dead brain is not conscious. A conscious man can control brain state, just as we can control TV audio output.

So, brain, the seen is not the Seer. which is Conscious.

 

[Bunyip]

So, brain is not Conscious.

I'll clarify - consciousness is a product of the brain.

No one has seen a brain in a state of unconsciousness.

Of course they have, I have seen one myself and dissected it at Uni.

And a dead brain is not conscious.

Agreed.

A conscious man can control brain state, just as we can control TV audio output.

Sure, some people can do that to greater or lesser extents.

So, brain, the seen is not the Seer. which is Conscious.

That does not follow.

 

[Bunyip]

Then a dead brain shoul generate consciousness too?

How could a dead brain generate consciousness? That makes no sense.

You dissected the brain in an unconscious state? I repharse: No brain is ever seen without consciosness as a precondition.

I'm really sorry, but that makes no sense either - hrains that are unconscious are commonplace, every cadaver has one.

That a dead brain is not conscious, indicates that the brain as such is not conscious.

No, it just indicates that dead brains no longer function.

Yes. What does that indicate?

Well that we can control some of our brain functions of course.
.....................

If consciousness was a deterministic product of brain chemicals, how would one control the states of the same brain.

Well through training, meditation etc.

Further, if consciousness was a deterministic product then how do we ascertain the truth value of any propsition at all?

Well by applying our minds to the proposition of course.

For example can billiard balls control their paths?

No, they have no brains and no organs to control their motion.

 

[atanu]

I'll clarify - consciousness is a product of the brain.

Then a dead brain shoul generate consciousness too?

Of course they have, I have seen one myself and dissected it at Uni.

You dissected the brain in an unconscious state? I repharse: No brain is ever seen without consciosness as a precondition.

Agreed.

That a dead brain is not conscious, indicates that the brain as such is not conscious.

Sure, some people can do that to greater or lesser extents.

Yes. What does that indicate?
.....................

If consciousness was a deterministic product of brain chemicals, how would one control the states of the same brain. Further, if consciousness was a deterministic product then how do we ascertain the truth value of any propsition at all?

For example, can billiard balls control their paths?

 

[godnotgod]

]

That doesn't make sense, my brain doesn't cease to exist when I sleep - neither does my personality.
My brain, like all human brains has some voluntary and some involuntary functions. The brain produces both my waking self and my involuntary functions - both come from the brain.

Because it is not present during sleep, when the brain, which is "I", is active.

Of course it is present during sleep, just not active.

I don't think you're getting the other half of the message, which is that I am using the logic of the materialist, who says that the brain and the person are one and the same. If the brain is active during sleep, then the person must also be active (ie; conscious) but he is not. The brain gets a wild card to create imagery as it pleases. The "I", (which is the brain) is nowhere to be found. It is found only in the waking state, when consciousness resumes. Therefore, "I" is a product of mind, which is a product of consciousness. All the brain is doing during sleep is using imagery from memory to create fantasy scenarios. IOW, what one dreams is not actually going in as in the waking state. It is all a concoction on the part of the brain.