What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

That would be as good a definition for 'non-existent', non-existent things are also timeless, causeless, occupy no space are formless, tasteless, silent, invisible, odorless and changless.

So you have a definition for consciousness that would as ably define non-existent.

So my question is, what the difference between consciousness and non-existence?

Existence and non-existence are about time and space. Consciousness is not in time or space. It neither exists, nor not-exists. It is non-dual.

It is MIND that is in time and space, but consciousness precedes the mind.

 

[Bunyip]

Existence and non-existence are about time and space. Consciousness is not in time or space. It neither exists, nor not-exists. It is non-dual.

It is MIND that is in time and space, but consciousness precedes the mind.

But that is false, all the evidence shows that consciousness is a product of mind. It cannot precede the thing it is a product of.

 

[s2a]

Do you believe in the Big Bang?

If you can accept the understanding today of 98+% of cosmologists and theoretical theorists, it's not a belief. It's an explanation.

Do you think it was a superior being who created the Big Bang?

Possible for some, but just not necessary for many.

Do you think the multiverse theory is a good explanation?

It remains interesting, though completely mind-bogging. Even trying to envision one singular cosmos pains this brain.

Was it something else?

The overwhelming evidence and informed speculation suggests the answer is "no".

Hawking has put forward (as a scientific "proof") that since we "know" (not speculate) that sub-atomic particles DO (in observable fact) do literally "pop into" then "out of" veritable existence for no explicable reason at any given moment, we may then extrapolate a very simple conclusion.

There is no "need" of ANY "god" to create a cosmos.

None.

Again, allow me to state... NONE.

Anyone is open to attribute the origins of the cosmos as we may observe it today, as some "act of (a) god(s)", but theoretical science and physics put forward the simple notion and unending evidences that the entire cosmos does not "require" any "supernatural" influences to define what is otherwise a straightforward observation of our cosmos today.

You may not appreciate nor care to hear this, but "science" does NOT care... nor even bother to examine ANY philosophical inquiries as to "why".

"Why" remains the domain of philosophy and religion.

Why does Neptune have so many moons? Neptune was unseen by every earthly being until the discovery and subsequent applied use of telescopes. As of today, NO measurable effects of these moons is detectable in any way upon us. NONE. So...if you choose to believe in some celestial entity as watchdog or "creator", then what's the point in "creating" an invisible moon of a distantly remote planet within a solar system that is allegedly the center of the entire universe?

By the way...we have yet to even scratch the surface of things ya know...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Uh huh, but how is any of that relevant? You asked what existed before the BB, and I told you that there was no before the BB. I know that the BB is just one theory - but the amswer still stands.

The difference between existence and nonexistence is about as clear and fundamental as you could get. What point are you trying to make by equivocating opposites?

What I am trying to say would perhaps take some time to percolate. No information is available for anytime before 'inflation' "the inflationary epoch lasted from 10(−36) seconds after the Big Bang to sometime between 10(−33) and 10(−32) seconds." (Wikipedia - Inflation Cosmology). If I am wrong, then members who know Physics better are welcome to correct the statement. Even BB is a conjecture though it could be a close one.

If the universe popped out of 'absolute nothing', then there is no difference between existence and non-existence. One is just a phase of another. It cannot be eternal because in that case (as in the case of God), we will face the question 'Where from did it pop out?" None of the answers to these questions are clear at the moment.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but "science" does NOT care... nor even bother to examine ANY philosophical inquiries as to "why". "Why" remains the domain of philosophy and religion.

Why does Neptune have so many moons? .. By the way...we have yet to even scratch the surface of things ya know...

Science does care for why. There has to be a reason for all that happens. Any question that remains unanswered is in the realm of science. Only that today we may not have answers for it. Why do the farther planets have so many moons, or why Saturn has rings are valid questions. I am sure science has theories for it. However, I do agree with your last statement.

 

[godnotgod]

But that is false, all the evidence shows that consciousness is a product of mind. It cannot precede the thing it is a product of.

Your mind is the agent of thinking, but before you have a single thought, consciousness is already present. The mind is a self-created principle. It is an illusion.

Can you stop your thoughts? And if and when you do, you are not dead, are you? You are still conscious, without thought. That state is seeing, not thinking.

 

[Bunyip]

Your mind is the agent of thinking, but before you have a single thought, consciousness is already present. The mind is a self-created principle. It is an illusion.

Can you stop your thoughts? And if and when you do, you are not dead, are you? You are still conscious, without thought. That state is seeing, not thinking.

My brain still exists when I am asleep. I still have a physical brain.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Brain is the repository of all information received from our senses. The brain utilizes this collected information to decide things when faced with any situation. This process is mind. Of course, they say consciousness exists from the sixth week in the womb for humans, that is when ganglions/brain start to develop. Yes, brain continues to work when we are awake as well as when we are sleeping (autonomous nervous system). It is the last organ to shut down before death, even after breathing and heart have stopped (except in case the brain is already damaged). As for illusion, what is not one? The first Sankaracharya said in the 8th Century, 'Brahma Satyam, Jagan Mithya ..'. Only Brahman (what exists) is truth, Jagan (the world, the perceived when we are awake) is an illusion ..)

 

[godnotgod]

My brain still exists when I am asleep. I still have a physical brain.

Of course. You must still breath and beat your heart and digest etc during sleep. Consciousness has relegated these functions to the brain so it does not have to mind to them up front minute by minute. Consciousness may have to deal with something in the immediate present that could be a matter of life or death, such as a tiger in the bush.

 

[Thief]

Of course. You must still breath and beat your heart and digest etc during sleep. Consciousness has relegated these functions to the brain so it does not have to mind to them up front minute by minute. Consciousness may have to deal with something in the immediate present that could be a matter of life or death, such as a tiger in the bush.

And death is real?
Haven't you been saying to the contrary?

You don't flip-flop....do 'you'?

 

[atanu]

My brain still exists when I am asleep. I still have a physical brain.

There is also a physical brainn in a dead body. The brain in dead body does not say "i am conscious".

OTOH, there is no brain ever seen in absence of consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

And death is real?
Haven't you been saying to the contrary?

You don't flip-flop....do 'you'?

From a purely 'physical' level, when someone dies, the body is still undergoing biological changes via enzymatic and anaerobic bacterial activity. Living processes are still very much going on, so instead of a termination, we have transformation. When you are alive, you consume 'dead' plant and animal tissue and flesh to nourish your body, so death feeds life. IOW, life and death are two phases of the same continuum.

From a spiritual point of view, the body you now inhabit is a temporal manifestation. It is not who you really are. So when the body 'dies' it is not the real you that dies. The real you is not your history nor your identity. All that comes to an end when the physical body ceases to function. So the real you is not the self; the ego of identification.

Your true nature, who you really are; is Unborn, and therefore, cannot die.

This is the 'I Am' to which Yeshu refers.

There is no 'afterlife' because there is no 'before-life'.

What we call 'life and death' are the result of consciousness manifesting as identification with the body. This state of identification is fictional. Our true nature has fallen asleep and is now locked into this state of altered consciousness, in which we only think it to be real, in much the same way we think a dream to be real during the dream. Only upon awakening do we see the nature of the dream. When we awaken from identification, we see that life and death are illusions, and that our awakened mind is unborn; deathless; outside of time and space.

There is no place to go to. We are already home, because we have never left.

 

[godnotgod]

My brain still exists when I am asleep. I still have a physical brain.

From a materialist point of view, who you are (ie "I") equates to the brain. So when you are asleep, "I" is no longer conscious, but the brain continues on in the dream state, creating all sorts of fantasies and imagery. If the brain is who you are, where is this"I" self during sleep? Does it cease to exist in sleep? And when you awaken, where does "I" come from at the moment of awakening?

 

[Bunyip]

There is also a physical brainn in a dead body. The brain in dead body does not say "i am conscious".

OTOH, there is no brain ever seen in absence of consciousness.

Erm... no. The brain in a dead body does not say that it is conscious - because itis dead.

Mate a dead brain is not conscious. IT IS DEAD.

Consciousness comes from live brains. Damage the brain the conscious personality changes. Stimulate the physical brain the consciousness reacts. Destroy the brain, the consciousness is gone.

There is no consciousness ever seen in the absence of brain. There are plenty of brains seen in the absemce of consciousness..

 

[Bunyip]

From a materialist point of view, who you are (ie "I") equates to the brain. So when you are asleep, "I" is no longer conscious, but the brain continues on in the dream state, creating all sorts of fantasies and imagery. If the brain is who you are, where is this"I" self during sleep? Does it cease to exist in sleep? And when you awaken, where does "I" come from at the moment of awakening?

That makes no sense. The 'I' is still there when I sleep - it is just asleep. It does not cease to exist when it is asleep, it is just asleep.

What on earth made you think that it would cease to exist when asleep? Do you think the world ceasesmto exist when you shut your eyes?

 

[Thief]

From a purely 'physical' level, when someone dies, the body is still undergoing biological changes via enzymatic and anaerobic bacterial activity. Living processes are still very much going on, so instead of a termination, we have transformation. When you are alive, you consume 'dead' plant and animal tissue and flesh to nourish your body, so death feeds life. IOW, life and death are two phases of the same continuum.

From a spiritual point of view, the body you now inhabit is a temporal manifestation. It is not who you really are. So when the body 'dies' it is not the real you that dies. The real you is not your history nor your identity. All that comes to an end when the physical body ceases to function. So the real you is not the self; the ego of identification.

Your true nature, who you really are; is Unborn, and therefore, cannot die.

This is the 'I Am' to which Yeshu refers.

There is no 'afterlife' because there is no 'before-life'.

What we call 'life and death' are the result of consciousness manifesting as identification with the body. This state of identification is fictional. Our true nature has fallen asleep and is now locked into this state of altered consciousness, in which we only think it to be real, in much the same way we think a dream to be real during the dream. Only upon awakening do we see the nature of the dream. When we awaken from identification, we see that life and death are illusions, and that our awakened mind is unborn; deathless; outside of time and space.

There is no place to go to. We are already home, because we have never left.

Dude...you are really confused.

Your body will die.
Beyond that 'you' won't go on.
'you' keep insisting 'you' don't.

I will be going home.

 

[Thief]

Erm... no. The brain in a dead body does not say that it is conscious - because itis dead.

Mate a dead brain is not conscious. IT IS DEAD.

Consciousness comes from live brains. Damage the brain the conscious personality changes. Stimulate the physical brain the consciousness reacts. Destroy the brain, the consciousness is gone.

There is no consciousness ever seen in the absence of brain. There are plenty of brains seen in the absemce of consciousness..

Destroy the brain and the means of continuing in this life is gone.
Brain and spirit are not the same.

 

[Bunyip]

Destroy the brain and the means of continuing in this life is gone.
Brain and spirit are not the same.

Correct. BRAINS are real physical things - the source of our consciousness.
Spirit is an imaginary quality, a distortion of the ancient notion that our breath held the spark of life, now imagined to refer to some sort of unevidenced metaphysical quality.

 

[godnotgod]

That makes no sense. The 'I' is still there when I sleep - it is just asleep. It does not cease to exist when it is asleep, it is just asleep.

What on earth made you think that it would cease to exist when asleep? Do you think the world ceasesmto exist when you shut your eyes?

No, but the materialist definition of "I" or 'mind' is the brain itself. If "I" is not present during sleep, then where did it go, if the brain is still active? If the brain is still active, then "I" should also be active. But what occurs is that the brain goes on a trip, creating fantasy images and scenarios for "I" IN THE ABSENCE OF CONSCIOUS ATTENTION. So if that is the case, maybe the "I" of the awakened state is also a fantasy-dream-sleep on a higher level. If you rely on the brain to provide a true picture of Reality, yet it does not during sleep, why would you trust it to do so during waking hours?

The past and currently sad condition of the world is a consequence of errors in judgment as dictated by the brain; by the "I". Obviously the brain does NOT provide a true picture of Reality, if the materialist view is a correct one. Why? Because the thinking mind creates concepts of Reality, which it then tries to superimpose over Reality as Reality itself. When they do not match, there is conflict. The "I" is self-centered, for the most part. Even when it seems to be altruistic, there are always ulterior motives involved. The "I" is still rooted in the old tribal brain which says: 'we vs. they', in which conflict is justified in the name of some glittering generality, like 'freedom', or 'democracy', or slogan like 'sempre fidelis', etc., adding a tone of nobility and pride to reinforce the reason for the conflict.

So, in both sleep and wakefulness, the brain fails to give us Reality. It is a limited mind which comes about, groping in the dark. Even science looks at the world in bits and pieces, never quite reaching a true understanding of what the whole of Reality actually is.

The experience of those who have seen these problems with the thinking mind have transcended the brain and it's offspring, the "I", to awaken a Higher Consciousness, one which, in spite of our broken world, does provide a true picture of Reality. Their descriptions of this experience are consistent one with the other even though they have been arrived at independently of each other, in different parts of the world, at different time in history. Their understanding of Reality is not a written, learned knowledge. It is just Reality as they awaken to it. It already IS, and is NOT a product of the brain; the brain is a product of Consciousness. As I mentioned before, this is suggested by recent scientific experiments of meditators whose cerebral cortexes are consistently thicker than those of non-meditators.

 

[idav]

No, but the materialist definition of "I" or 'mind' is the brain itself. If "I" is not present during sleep, then where did it go, if the brain is still active? If the brain is still active, then "I" should also be active. But what occurs is that the brain goes on a trip, creating fantasy images and scenarios for "I" IN THE ABSENCE OF CONSCIOUS ATTENTION. So if that is the case, maybe the "I" of the awakened state is also a fantasy-dream-sleep on a higher level. If you rely on the brain to provide a true picture of Reality, yet it does not during sleep, why would you trust it to do so during waking hours?

The past and currently sad condition of the world is a consequence of errors in judgment as dictated by the brain; by the "I". Obviously the brain does NOT provide a true picture of Reality, if the materialist view is a correct one. Why? Because the thinking mind creates concepts of Reality, which it then tries to superimpose over Reality as Reality itself. When they do not match, there is conflict. The "I" is self-centered, for the most part. Even when it seems to be altruistic, there are always ulterior motives involved. The "I" is still rooted in the old tribal brain which says: 'we vs. they', in which conflict is justified in the name of some glittering generality, like 'freedom', or 'democracy', or slogan like 'sempre fidelis', etc., adding a tone of nobility and pride to reinforce the reason for the conflict.

So, in both sleep and wakefulness, the brain fails to give us Reality. It is a limited mind which comes about, groping in the dark. Even science looks at the world in bits and pieces, never quite reaching a true understanding of what the whole of Reality actually is.

The experience of those who have seen these problems with the thinking mind have transcended the brain and it's offspring, the "I", to awaken a Higher Consciousness, one which, in spite of our broken world, does provide a true picture of Reality. Their descriptions of this experience are consistent one with the other even though they have been arrived at independently of each other, in different parts of the world, at different time in history. Their understanding of Reality is not a written, learned knowledge. It is just Reality as they awaken to it. It already IS, and is NOT a product of the brain; the brain is a product of Consciousness. As I mentioned before, this is suggested by recent scientific experiments of meditators whose cerebral cortexes are consistently thicker than those of non-meditators.

This has been verified by people thinking meditating and dreaming with there brains. When we dream our conscious thought as well as motor movement is cut off by our brains, it is uncouncious thought produced by our brains. When it isnt completely cut off, which mainly occurs in children where there brains are still developing, then we have lucid dreaming and are conscious of our dream while it occurs but this is rare because there is a literal physical limitation produced by the wiring in our brain. All this confirms there is a different conscious state during dreams and meditation all produced by the brain and scans also have confirmed this.