What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

The only constant is change. Nothing is forever. Nothing stays unchanged.

I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. I can recognize the person I was yesterday, but right now, I'm who I am right now, and no one else. Tomorrow, I'll be someone else.

How can you tell that something has changed?

 

[Ouroboros]

How can you tell that something has changed?

Because it's different.

 

[godnotgod]

Because it's different.

In the example you gave, you are determining change from some reference point that acts as a point of no change to a point forward in time. These are relative points of demarcation. But all relative demarcation points are seen against what?

 

[Aman777]

Quote:

Dear idav, I've read about the some 9 Billion years BEFORE the first micro seconds of our Universe. It's all in Genesis, since the Big Bang was on the THIRD Day. Gen 2:4

The big bang on the third day. Wrong because the third day should have water which didn't exist on the first day.

Dear Idav, Water was present BEFORE the first Day. It came from within the heaven (air) which was the FIRST creation ingredient, and water is composed of oxygen and hyrdrogen. That is WHY God doesn't tell us it was "created" since what was created with the Air. ONLY God knew that 3k years ago.

Quote:
Notice that the Big Bang was on the THIRD Day Gen 2:4 and the First Stars of our Cosmos didn't put forth their Light until the FOURTH Day. Gen 1:16 The LORD had changed air, dust, and water into Energy and the Big Bang scattered the Stars throughout the Cosmos. The LORD knew about Gravity BEFORE He caused the "inflation" of our World.

Further God say let there be light on a first day that doesn't exist. A day goes by the sun at which time didn't exist. No days exist.

Quote:
There was Light for Billions of years BEFORE the Big Bang because the LORD Jesus is the Light of the FIRST Day. Gen 1:3 He is ALSO the Light of New Jerusalem in Heaven for the Shekinah Glory which surrounds Him is BRIGHTER than the Noonday Sun. Act 9:3 How do you suppose the plants and trees GREW on the 3rd Day without Light? Gen 1:12

Ok so some sort of metaphorical light that preceded the universe. Whatever then no reason to invoke the big bang at all its all a metaphor.

Go back and look at Act 9:3 and realize that Saul was on the road to Damascus, when a Light shown from heaven at noon which was Brighter than the Sun, and that Light is identified. It is Jesus. The Glory of Brightness of Jesus is NO metaphor as those who are Judged will find out when they must stand before a Being Who is Brighter than the Sun...IF they can stand. Most fall on their faces.

Quote:
Then WHY do you suppose the speed of the Galaxies is INCREASING if all there was was Gravity? I can tell you but first, tell us about the imaginary Mysterious Force of Dark Energy. We need a good laugh. God Bless you.

That is what we observed in the very beginnings of the universe as expansion was already happening. Gravity is simply part of the equation regardless of the power that was expanding the energies to begin with.

Wow mock away. The dark energies just mean we don't know what it is but is observable in ways that we can calculate their effects. And in fact the universe is very complex and went through stages of speeding up and slowing down, just based on the what forces had more control at the time but all this has been observed we can literally look back in time and see what the universe was doing, we don't have to guess.

The reason it's called Dark Energy is that they have NO idea what it is. That's because they don't understand Genesis, which shows that we live in a Multiverse and as we get closer to the other worlds, the gravitational pull of those larger worlds are causing us to come closer and closer to them, thus speeding up the Galaxies, in violation of the laws of Gravity within our single Universe. That is because Gravity crosses the boundaries of Universes. IOW, Dark Energy IS Gravity from the Multiverse. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Ouroboros]

In the example you gave, you are determining change from some reference point that acts as a point of no change to a point forward in time. These are relative points of demarcation. But all relative demarcation points are seen against what?

Not sure I follow.

 

[Thief]

Buy it or not we have been able to observe the first micro seconds of the universe. Gravity was first evidence that something was there. Light, as far our eyes can see didn't come about until later and matter as in Hydrogen wasn't even present in the beginning. All this matter is just a change from what was from the beginning, a change in form from the energies and powers that were around in the beginning.

So how do we observe these beginning if there wasn't light, because we don't observe light in our spectrum from the beginning. Further there is no I am there to be found. We just see something being, thats all. Existence just being and changing form as it expanded and cooled down.

So more accurately it would be, in the beginning god said let there be gravity. So I am with you on the spinney thingies and such, its cause of gravity going against the forces of expansion.

Too much overlap.
You need to redraw the picture.
start with nothing.....add only one point.....is it moving?

 

[Thief]

I say God is a living Spirit....mind and heart.
He is not embodied.

We are.

 

[godnotgod]

Not sure I follow.

What I am suggesting is that change can only be determined against a background of something that is changeless, either relatively or absolutely.

When you are comparing yourself at age 10 to your current age, 'age 10' is an arbitrary and relative 'still' point, but both ages are seen against an absolute changelessness.

Your previous post seemed to imply that there are no absolutes when you said:

The only constant is change. Nothing is forever. Nothing stays unchanged.

But isn't the universe itself not only absolute, but The Absolute, since it is Everything, and being Everything, there is no relative 'other'?

I am using the word 'universe' to include everything, as defined here:

The Universe is all of spacetime and everything that exists therein, including all planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy. Similar terms include the cosmos, the world, reality, and nature.

[add multiverses to this list].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

 

[godnotgod]

I say God is a living Spirit....mind and heart.
He is not embodied.

We are.

Then who or what is it that you claim 'stands up from the dust?'

"Are we humans trying to be spiritual, or spirits trying to be human?"
Zen source

 

[godnotgod]

The Absolute Consciousness
Alone
Is our Real Nature.
Your duty is to be,
And not to be this or that.
There are no stages in Realization,
Or degrees of Liberation.
There are no levels of Reality;
There are only levels of experience
For the individual.
If anything can be gained
That was not present before,
It can also be lost,
Whereas the Absolute is eternal,
Here and now.
It is not a matter of becoming,
But of Being.​

Remain aware of yourself
And all else will be known.
The ultimate truth is so simple;
It is nothing more than being in one‟s
Natural, original state.
There is no greater mystery than this:
Being Reality ourselves,
We seek to gain reality.
It is false to speak of Realization;
What is there to realize?
The real is ever as it is.
All that is required is
To cease regarding as real
That which is unreal.
That is all we need
To attain wisdom (jnana).


Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi: Absolute Consciousness
​

 

[Ouroboros]

What I am suggesting is that change can only be determined against a background of something that is changeless, either relatively or absolutely.

When you are comparing yourself at age 10 to your current age, 'age 10' is an arbitrary and relative 'still' point, but both ages are seen against an absolute changelessness.

Your previous post seemed to imply that there are no absolutes when you said:

The only constant is change. Nothing is forever. Nothing stays unchanged.

But isn't the universe itself not only absolute, but The Absolute, since it is Everything, and being Everything, there is no relative 'other'?

I am using the word 'universe' to include everything, as defined here:

The Universe is all of spacetime and everything that exists therein, including all planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy. Similar terms include the cosmos, the world, reality, and nature.

[add multiverses to this list].

Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If we consider zero to be the "fixed" point on a number scale, I'd say that Nothing (or Nothingness) would be the fixed point of space and existence.

---edit

Let me expand on it. One fixed point in existence is yourself. You (and I, all of us) are the one who is the point of origin. All things move and spin around us, and the center point of stillness, experience, and being, that is you.

 

[Ouroboros]

The Absolute Consciousness
Alone
Is our Real Nature.
Your duty is to be,
And not to be this or that.
There are no stages in Realization,
Or degrees of Liberation.
There are no levels of Reality;
There are only levels of experience
For the individual.
If anything can be gained
That was not present before,
It can also be lost,
Whereas the Absolute is eternal,
Here and now.
It is not a matter of becoming,
But of Being.​

Remain aware of yourself
And all else will be known.
The ultimate truth is so simple;
It is nothing more than being in one‟s
Natural, original state.
There is no greater mystery than this:
Being Reality ourselves,
We seek to gain reality.
It is false to speak of Realization;
What is there to realize?
The real is ever as it is.
All that is required is
To cease regarding as real
That which is unreal.
That is all we need
To attain wisdom (jnana).


Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi: Absolute Consciousness
​

I like it. (The system wouldn't let me give you a frubal. I've given you too many! LOL!)

 

[godnotgod]

Really? Yes mate, a room is a subset of a house. The house is greater than the room which is included in it.

I am a subset of the universe, I am a part of the universe - a lesser part than the whole.

But the superset is only as good as the subsets. You are not 'part' of the universe; you are the universe itself. The universe is not something that is filled with things; those very things are what actually comprise the universe, but in reality, there are no such 'things'; there are only forms that are appearances of things.

'You are not just the drop in the ocean; you are the Mighty Ocean itself'
Rumi

 

[Bunyip]

But the superset is only as good as the subsets. You are not 'part' of the universe; you are the universe itself. The universe is not something that is filled with things; those very things are what actually comprise the universe, but in reality, there are no such 'things'; there are only forms that are appearances of things.

'You are not just the drop in the ocean; you are the Mighty Ocean itself'
Rumi

Meaningless word salad.

 

[Thief]

Then who or what is it that you claim 'stands up from the dust?'

"Are we humans trying to be spiritual, or spirits trying to be human?"
Zen source

Really?
Then you quote a 'Zen source'....that gives indication.

Whether we are trying to be human or trying to be spirit....we are both.

And we ( of course) is a pronoun for YOU and I.

 

[godnotgod]

Really?
Then you quote a 'Zen source'....that gives indication.

Whether we are trying to be human or trying to be spirit....we are both.

You contradict yourself. First you said the spirit is not embodied in the flesh, and now you say it is. Which is it, Thief?

 

[godnotgod]

Meaningless word salad.

The salad is in your head.

What is it you need clarified?

 

[Thief]

You contradict yourself. First you said the spirit is not embodied in the flesh, and now you say it is. Which is it, Thief?

You know what I meant.....you're just tossing word salad.

 

[godnotgod]

You know what I meant.....you're just tossing word salad.

mmmmm....no...YOU are. Again, you said the spirit does not embody the flesh, then you say it does, and that your spirit stands up from the dust it just came out of.

Your flesh is infused with spirit. Every pore; every cell is alive with spirit.

 

[Thief]

mmmmm....no...YOU are. Again, you said the spirit does not embody the flesh, then you say it does, and that your spirit stands up from the dust it just came out of.

Your flesh is infused with spirit. Every pore; every cell is alive with spirit.

Did 'you' just use the word YOU as if 'you' meant it?

The Spirit of God is said to be spirit.
Man is spirit in body.

Are 'you' really confused about that?