What came before the Big Bang?

[idav]

Here is something to think about concerning the seeming paradox of the Big Bang, and it coming into being when Time did not yet exist:

In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into being."

There was always spirit, even in the void, and the spirit substance became what we see today. Like the paradox in John, everything came to be through spirit yet spirit became flesh. So that what was with god and was god became creation.

 

[crossfire]

Well heck, if we are getting into the Gospel of Thomas, let us look at GOT verse 29:

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."​

-source-

{I've always acknowledged the body-mind connection, and the mind-spirit connection. The body-spirit connection? hmmmmmmm}

 

[godnotgod]

Well heck, if we are getting into the Gospel of Thomas, let us look at GOT verse 29:

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."​

-source-

{I've always acknowledged the body-mind connection, and the mind-spirit connection. The body-spirit connection? hmmmmmmm}

From Zen we have:

'Are we humans trying to be spiritual,
or are we spirits trying to be human?'

The distinction should be made between 'became flesh' and 'manifesting as flesh'. The former implies that something material was created from the non-material, while the latter implies that what we call 'material' is only a manifestation, a projection, of the divine nature, the world being an illusion.

 

[idav]

From Zen we have:

'Are we humans trying to be spiritual,
or are we spirits trying to be human?'

The distinction should be made between 'became flesh' and 'manifesting as flesh'. The former implies that something material was created from the non-material, while the latter implies that what we call 'material' is only a manifestation, a projection, of the divine nature, the world being an illusion.

I think calling it a projection is accurate but why call it non-material if it can manifest materially. Normally I'd think the projection is non-material while the source of the projection is not.

edit: IOW God in spirit is more real than the projections of our mind

 

[godnotgod]

I think calling it a projection is accurate but why call it non-material if it can manifest materially. Normally I'd think the projection is non-material while the source of the projection is not.

edit: IOW God in spirit is more real than the projections of our mind

It doesn't manifest materially, at least in the way we used to think about material, as being something solid. Science, and especially Quantum Physics, has now shown us that the atom is almost all empty space.

"There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

Ultimately, however, the manifested world, the universe, IS the spirit, the Absolute, in the same way that what is seen as the 'snake', is really the rope.

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation."
Vivikenanda

 

[Thief]

Well heck, if we are getting into the Gospel of Thomas, let us look at GOT verse 29:

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."
​

-source-

{I've always acknowledged the body-mind connection, and the mind-spirit connection. The body-spirit connection? hmmmmmmm}

Would you care to post this as a thread start?
I think this could be good topic.

 

[crossfire]

Well heck, if we are getting into the Gospel of Thomas, let us look at GOT verse 29:

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."​

-source-

{I've always acknowledged the body-mind connection, and the mind-spirit connection. The body-spirit connection? hmmmmmmm}

Would you care to post this as a thread start?
I think this could be good topic.

New thread created here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/155657-gospel-thomas-verse-29-a.html

 

[idav]

It doesn't manifest materially, at least in the way we used to think about material, as being something solid. Science, and especially Quantum Physics, has now shown us that the atom is almost all empty space.

"There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

Ultimately, however, the manifested world, the universe, IS the spirit, the Absolute, in the same way that what is seen as the 'snake', is really the rope.

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation."
Vivikenanda

A particle at a high vibration. Right but what is this particle, it is a something I think. Your not alone, those physics guys dont like me calling it a particle either, so we know what it really is it isnt illusory.

 

[godnotgod]

A particle at a high vibration. Right but what is this particle, it is a something I think. Your not alone, those physics guys dont like me calling it a particle either, so we know what it really is it isnt illusory.

The grasping mind; the thinking, conceptualizing mind needs to call it a 'something', a 'particle', so it can have something nice and comfy to sink its teeth into. Otherwise, if it could see it for what it really is, it would self-destruct. That's what a koan does.

When you don't give it a name, a classification, what is it?

BTW, Planck did not call it a 'high' vibration; in fact, if anything, it is a low vibration, a high vibration being one which would reveal it's true nature as energy.

 

[s2a]

Do you believe in the Big Bang?

Believe? No.

Does the theory present the best available explanation of the cosmos today as observed? Yep.

"Belief" implies an otherwise suspension of disbelief... not unlike "do you believe God made it happen"?

Here's the distinction: Nearly all evidences available today point most directly in confirming "Big Bang" theories of "scientific: origins...

"God(s) did it"

Not so much...

Do you think it was a superior being who created the Big Bang?

Nope.

Do you think the multiverse theory is a good explanation?

It's a potentially valid one, though I confess it remains difficult to grasp or accept from a simply human perspective...

Was it something else?

Maybe?

You have a unique revelation to share that does not involve mysticism, superstition, religion. orwild *** guessing/speculations?

I'm listening...I promise.

 

[Thief]

Believe? No.


Here's the distinction: Nearly all evidences available today point most directly in confirming "Big Bang" theories of "scientific: origins...

"God(s) did it"

Not so much...

I'm listening...I promise.

With such a stance at hand....
You must then assume substance first...spirit as consequence.
Which leads to death and no continuance.

Not very optimistic.

And it renders all of life as a mystery with no resolve or purpose.

 

[stevevw]

to imply there was a big bang then something had to go bang. there has been some news about the hadron collider recently about how they discovered the higgs field and the higgs boson. im no expert on this but i have a general idea. they are looking into particles now and trying to discover how mass comes into existence. but the more scientists look the more questions they get. what they are doing is trying to break down gods creation and see how it works. what they will find in the end is that all the universe, the stars and ourselves couldn't have come from a big bang or out of nothing. something doesn't come from nothing. we didn't come from a primeval soup. we are created by an intelligent and almighty god. we are discovering deep space and this thing called dark energy and dark matter. it seems all that empty space is not empty and that it has some role in how everything is kept in place. we thought it was gravity but there are other forces out there. it seems this dark matter has just the right amount of influence to keep all the planets and stars in their place and the earth in its perfect place. some say if you wanted to build this as a model you would have to have the most intricate and perfectly working device that would suggest an intelligent designer. a big bang could not have blown everything into perfect position. scientists can break it down as much as they wish but the more they do the more they will see that this did not come from nothing and will end up as nothing, that there is a creator that brought all of this into existence.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

to imply there was a big bang then something had to go bang. there has been some news about the hadron collider recently about how they discovered the higgs field and the higgs boson. im no expert on this but i have a general idea. they are looking into particles now and trying to discover how mass comes into existence. but the more scientists look the more questions they get. what they are doing is trying to break down gods creation and see how it works. what they will find in the end is that all the universe, the stars and ourselves couldn't have come from a big bang or out of nothing. something doesn't come from nothing. we didn't come from a primeval soup. we are created by an intelligent and almighty god. we are discovering deep space and this thing called dark energy and dark matter. it seems all that empty space is not empty and that it has some role in how everything is kept in place. we thought it was gravity but there are other forces out there. it seems this dark matter has just the right amount of influence to keep all the planets and stars in their place and the earth in its perfect place. some say if you wanted to build this as a model you would have to have the most intricate and perfectly working device that would suggest an intelligent designer. a big bang could not have blown everything into perfect position. scientists can break it down as much as they wish but the more they do the more they will see that this did not come from nothing and will end up as nothing, that there is a creator that brought all of this into existence.

Umm...the Big Bang was an explosion...:no:

See this is what happens when Scientist try to be cool...Big Bang...smh.

 

[YmirGF]

to imply there was a big bang then something had to go bang. there has been some news about the hadron collider recently about how they discovered the higgs field and the higgs boson. im no expert on this but i have a general idea. they are looking into particles now and trying to discover how mass comes into existence. but the more scientists look the more questions they get. what they are doing is trying to break down gods creation and see how it works. what they will find in the end is that all the universe, the stars and ourselves couldn't have come from a big bang or out of nothing. something doesn't come from nothing. we didn't come from a primeval soup. we are created by an intelligent and almighty god. we are discovering deep space and this thing called dark energy and dark matter. it seems all that empty space is not empty and that it has some role in how everything is kept in place. we thought it was gravity but there are other forces out there. it seems this dark matter has just the right amount of influence to keep all the planets and stars in their place and the earth in its perfect place. some say if you wanted to build this as a model you would have to have the most intricate and perfectly working device that would suggest an intelligent designer. a big bang could not have blown everything into perfect position. scientists can break it down as much as they wish but the more they do the more they will see that this did not come from nothing and will end up as nothing, that there is a creator that brought all of this into existence.

There is so much incorrect information in this post that it is difficult to determine where to start. The Big Bang was not an explosion. An explosion occurs in both time and space. The Big Bang was the rapid expansion, in all directions, of time and space. Given that "time" began with the Big Bang there simply was no "time" prior to the Big Bang as "time" as we know it did not exist.

 

[idav]

With such a stance at hand....
You must then assume substance first...spirit as consequence.
Which leads to death and no continuance.

Not very optimistic.

And it renders all of life as a mystery with no resolve or purpose.

One way or another one leads to the other and both would be ever continuing by virtue of whatever currently sustains it. The trinitarians say jesus shares this spirit substance with god and they call it a mystery. I see it as a transformation, it is all the same thing in different forms, spirit is substance. After all, there is something rather than nothing, otherwise god is some void of nothing we spawned from.

 

[Ouroboros]

to imply there was a big bang then something had to go bang.

The name "Big Bang" is a misnomer. It wasn't a bang. The term was made by Fred Hoyle for the purpose of helping people understanding the difference between the steady state model that was before and the new expansion model. Big Bang wasn't an explosion (like an "expansion" of particles), it was a massive expansion of space itself.

 

[metis]

It was actually two expansions a minute fraction of a second apart according to the mathematical models, and they estimate that before the BB our universe was roughly the size of an atom today.

Because of the "afterglow" (background radiation from the BB), some cosmologists think we may well know what caused these expansions maybe within 10 years. Heart, keep beating!

 

[Ouroboros]

Two expansions? Didn't know that. Learn something new every day.

 

[metis]

Two expansions? Didn't know that. Learn something new every day.

I learn a lot every day and then forget more than I remember, so I think I'm now operating in the hole.

With the two expansions, this points to one model that might explain it but it's too early to tell for certain if it's true. This model suggests that this extremely hot and condensed ball, has various charges, but because of the density they had very limited motion. But, some think what might have happened is that certain charges may have gotten close enough to begin to repel each other, and when that happened (1st expansion), bonds were broken that led to the 2nd expansion.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Two expansions? Didn't know that. Learn something new every day.

Indeed, and the fractal nature of the universe reflects this in the wasteline of married people. The first expansion is after the marriage itself - the second is after they produce offspring. Everything is one.