• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What came before the Big Bang?

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
With such a stance at hand....
You must then assume substance first...spirit as consequence.
Or not, and just leave the magic out of the equation entirely. No need to posit "spirit" at all, as antecedent or consequent.

Which leads to death and no continuance.

Not very optimistic.
Unfortunately, whether something sounds optimistic has no bearing on whether it is true. While people may often base their religious views on what sounds pleasant, science and philosophy don't really have that luxury- truth is the concern, not peace of mind.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Even though it is true that an observer has an effect on photons that have not yet been understood, this really has nothing to do with the BB. If we view "time" as sequencing, which it really is in large part, most cosmologists do believe it's quite likely that sub-atomic particles and/or strings were in some limited movement prior to the BB. IOW, the mass of the minute black hole that was our universe was so high and condensed that time barely "moved" by today's standards.
Actually, I was referencing my limited understanding of "red shift."
I believe the phenomenon (and I could have it backwards) is, for one traveling at the speed of light, the outside universe appears to be standing still - or vica versa.
Either way, for the first several billion years of the Light expanding, the Universe would appear to be standing still - no time at all passing....
 

gnostic

The Lost One
thief said:
Look at it this way.....
Can't say "I AM!"....without proof.

...which is utterly meaningless.

thief said:
"Let there be light!"... is synonymous.

How do you jump from "I AM" to "Let there be light!"?

You'd have to do mental contortion and turn yourself into a human pretzel, to make them synonymous.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Or not, and just leave the magic out of the equation entirely. No need to posit "spirit" at all, as antecedent or consequent.


Unfortunately, whether something sounds optimistic has no bearing on whether it is true. While people may often base their religious views on what sounds pleasant, science and philosophy don't really have that luxury- truth is the concern, not peace of mind.

'I have not with peace....but with a sword.'.......my Inspiration.

It's a matter of choice....not proof.
Choose substance first and your existence has no continuance.(consequence)
Choose Spirit First and you have a shot of going on...after your last breath. (consequence)

There will be no equations for the resolve.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
...which is utterly meaningless.



How do you jump from "I AM" to "Let there be light!"?

You'd have to do mental contortion and turn yourself into a human pretzel, to make them synonymous.

I can.
Your lack of ability is no fault of mine.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
thief said:
I can.
Your lack of ability is no fault of mine.

What? You mean can turn yourself into a human pretzel? Or that you can twist words?

:sorry1:, but I can't lie or twist words to mean something else, like the way you can. :foot:

I gonna stop being so blunt...I'm already in trouble. :eek:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
??? "an observer has an effect on photons"?

Yes. Aren't you aware of the double pin-hole experiment whereas somehow "loose" photons" actually interact with the observer? If not, let me know and I'll see if I can find it on-line.

Quantum fluctuations are not "movement". Also, I'd be curious as to how you are determining what "most cosmologists" think.

Yes, a "fluctuation" is indeed movement since it's not stationary. A digital clock has "fluctuation" because of the movement of energy, even though there are no mechanical parts that move in its operation.

As far as the 2nd item is concerned, I should have said "most cosmologists that I have read".

Our universe wasn't a black hole.

Yes, it can, and it was actually from at least one research cosmologist (don't ask me which because I can't remember) that has referred to it that way. Generally speaking , it has all the properties of a black hole, so the real question is there more than one, and did any of these others, if they exist, also go through the expansion process (multiverse)?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually, I was referencing my limited understanding of "red shift."
I believe the phenomenon (and I could have it backwards) is, for one traveling at the speed of light, the outside universe appears to be standing still - or vica versa.
Either way, for the first several billion years of the Light expanding, the Universe would appear to be standing still - no time at all passing....

If the universe was expanding, which we're quite certain it did, then time indeed was passing since movement is time because time is sequencing. However, because of relativity, we're going to see that time differently than we see events happening in today's time. So, it's not that time didn't exist, but what is different is our measurements of that time.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Aren't you aware of the double pin-hole experiment whereas somehow "loose" photons" actually interact with the observer?
That's not how you use whereas and I'm quite aware of the most basic experiments in QM there are. I've even explained them in some detail, as well as going over more complicated stuff. For example, :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/138453-free-will-27.html#post3163551
&
We use the deterministic equation regardless of measurement collapse because it is built into this formalism via another: the "jump" to collapsed state. The evolution of the system is mathematically represented as deterministic because the mathematical representation doesn't bijectively map onto the physical system.
That's why even with both the observable and the states, we have no unique outcome. If the operators were merely representations of measurements, then why is it not the case that both the states and the observable give us a value? Because the operator is not a mathematical scheme for measurement. Instead, another layer of formalism is added. Measurement is combined with this theoretically derived formalism s.t. an entirely deterministic "system" has probabilistic results. The projection, collapse, etc., are said to "cause" some change in the system upon measurement, but the obtained values require more than a representation of the system and of measurement.








legiononomamoi-albums-other-picture4581-multipurpose-gun.jpg








Focus on the line drawn from the gun to the travelling electron. And let's say we fire one at a time, all arriving as localized spots, and we get the interference pattern.

Like the line drawn above, you are asserting that there is another line after the electron hits the splitting screen. That is, there is a definite path/trajectory.

Imagine, for a moment, that we're firing pellets (an analogy I've made before, but this time with a visual aid). We expect that most of them will follow a line from the gun, through a slit, and land in the two expected locations. Some might bounce, some might never go through, but if we shoot thousands of these we will continually see that most of them follow a line through one of the slits and arrive at the expected locations.

The reason for the motel analogy is because no matter how hard we try, doing this with electrons instead of pellets means never hitting those places but hitting a totally different set of line. Moreover, if we treat them as waves going through both slits, we can draw new "expected locations" lines. The one place we won't draw lines, however, is where they are now.

Let's say we run 10,000 experiments and each time we fire a trillion electrons. How can we say there is a definite trajectory when we never see the "spots" form lines in the non-quantum expected locations? And how are we able to account for the new lines by factoring in the fact that the electron when through both slits as a wave?

That's why QM is like the motel analogy and the other one I made about rooms. If we treat the particles as having trajectories, it's like always trying to go through door 100 and never, ever, ever getting there.
If there is anything to be salvaged from this quantum card game, it will necessarily involve some issues with dimensions, spaces, bases, and functions.

There are, it seems to me, a few central problems.
1) What a vector space or subspace is (what conditions must be met to make something such a space)
2) What "infinite-dimensional" means and how it relates to dimensional spaces
3) What eigenvectors and eigenvalues are.

The 2nd is the easiest because it narrows (infinitely, actually) what we have to deal with..

Wave functions can be thought of as vectors because the field we are building the vectors out of is the square integrable functions.
So, how do you specify a function over an infinite space by example?


The answer is easy. You don't do that. Because Hilbert space isn't a function over an infinite space, nor do we think of vectors as built out of squared integrable functions, but rather that these constitute an infinite number of functions on or over a space. They're a metric imposing mathematical structure extending Euclidean space.

The right question is, "what is the field of square integrable functions?" The answer:
Take any function f. If f satisfies the following:

47c5c47c71fd5ab040bfdf524b632c10.png


then f qualifies as a square integrable function. Basically, it means that a function defined anywhere on the number line s.t. it is itself squared qualifies. To qualify as a Hilbert space, we need only ensure there is an inner product defined for any two function f and g and the we have the necessary metric or measure mu:
gif.latex


All fascinating stuff, and a very scary was of saying that Hilbert space is similar to the space we seem to move around in (3D Euclidean space), only it has a few extra properties and it is infinite dimensional.

Let's say we really were working in a 52-dimensional space. How much larger is that space than a 4-dimensional space? Well, you can get pretty technical here or just realize that both spaces are infinitely dense and extend infinitely in all directions. The main difference is just the number of "directions" in which the space can extend infinitely.

The point, however, as that a 52-dimensional space is not an infinite dimensional space. So any worry we might have about functions dealing with infinite dimensional spaces is needless.

So now we are back in good ol' 52-dimensional space. Specifically, a linear finite Hilbert space. What do we do with it? Well, if we're interested at understanding how to approach this space using vectors, we figure out what vectors in this space would look like. In R2, a point is defined by two coordinates (x, y). The same is true here, only we have 52 coordinates. A vector in R2 corresponds to some point (x, y) but it has a direction, or represents an increment. The differences in physics are usually pretty clear, but in mathematics in general it is rather arbitrary. The temperature of a room a some time t is a point in 1D space. Same with the temperature of the room at some time t + 1 hour. Both are points. However, the increment or change from the first to the second has a direction and magnitude (the temperature change is a certain amount in a certain direction). That gives us a vector.

Once again, it is pretty much exactly the same in 52D. A vector is nothing more than a list of 52 entries that correspond to a point in 52D space, but from some direction to that point. Some vectors, however, are more important than others. Because if I take the linear combination of certain 52-D vectors (for each vector, I can multiply it by a scalar, including 0), I can "hit" any point anywhere in the entire infinitely extending and infinitely dense 52D space. And if, by removing any one of these vectors, I can no longer do this, then I have basis vectors for that space.

The only real problem left is this german Eigen-whats it. THE equation in linear algebra is Ax=b. A is a matrix. However, a matrix is not just a group of numbers but a function (more than that actually). Specifically, we call it a linear transformation that takes the vector x and transforms it into b. Both vectors, in 52D space, have 52 entries. The matrix A must, therefore, have as many columns as the vector does rows (52). The equation we need to get both an eigenvalue and eigenvector is Ax=λx. The reason this is a lot more important than it looks is because the linear transformation takes the vector x and maps it onto some multiple of itself. The eigenvalue is the scalar that can do what the matrix A does, and it corresponds to the eigenvector that is mapped to a multiple of itself. Things do get a little more complicated when we have an eigenvalue i or -i, because for every coordinate we have both a "real" and an "imaginary" or complex part, but as this doesn't actually change anything for a quantum shuffle, we don't have to worry about calculating something that can't be calculated.




Yes, a "fluctuation" is indeed movement since it's not stationary.
It's not movement. It's not movement because we cannot define what moves or where it moves to.


Yes, it can, and it was actually from at least one research cosmologist (don't ask me which because I can't remember) that has referred to it that way.
Ok, if it is true, then surely this isn't unique to one "research cosmologist".

it has all the properties of a black hole
It doesn't. Take a look at black hole thermodynamics or black hole field equations and compare them to models in standard cosmology for the big bang. Black holes are stellar bodies. There is all the difference in the world between a comparison the serves as a conceptual crutch, such as that between the formation of black holes and running the clock back on the evolution of the universe, and equating two distinct things (like black holes and the universe at any point of it's evolution).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's not how you use whereas and I'm quite aware of the most basic experiments in QM there are. I've even explained them in some detail, as well as going over more complicated stuff. For example, :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/138453-free-will-27.html#post3163551

Ah good, as I don't have much time left today.


It's not movement. It's not movement because we cannot define what moves or where it moves to.

But it was hypothetically defined if you check back to one of my previous posts. However, since it's only a hypothesis, we simply do not know if this is what actually happened.


It doesn't. Take a look at black hole thermodynamics or black hole field equations and compare them to models in standard cosmology for the big bang. Black holes are stellar bodies. There is all the difference in the world between a comparison the serves as a conceptual crutch, such as that between the formation of black holes and running the clock back on the evolution of the universe, and equating two distinct things (like black holes and the universe at any point of it's evolution).

Check this out, but since I'm running out of time, you might consider googling more sources like this: Goodbye Big Bang, Hello Black Hole? A New Theory Of The Universe’s Creation and Was our universe created by a four-dimensional black hole? .
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But it was hypothetically defined if you check back to one of my previous posts.
Your posts inaccurately described certain modern theories.

you might consider googling more sources like this

I don't need more sources. Just sticking with books (including textbooks), I have among others
Susskind, L., & Lindesay, J. (2005). An introduction to black holes, information and the string theory revolution. Singapore: World Scientific.
Gasperini, M. (2007). Elements of string cosmology. Cambridge University Press.
Liddle, A. (2003). An Introduction to Modern Cosmology, Second Edition. Wiley-VCH
Carroll, B. W., & Ostlie, D. A. (2006). An introduction to modern astrophysics and cosmology (Vol. 1).
Gasperini, M. (2008). The universe before the big bang: cosmology and string theory. Springer.
Sidharth, B. G. (2005). The Universe of Fluctuations: The Architecture of Spacetime and the Universe (Fundamental Theories of Physics). Springer.
Papantonopoulos, E. (Ed.). (2009). Physics of black holes: a guided tour (Vol. 769 of Lecture Notes in Physics). Springer.
Chow, T. L. (2008). Gravity, black holes, and the very early universe: an introduction to general relativity and cosmology. Springer.
Rubakov, V. A., & Gorbunov, D. S. (2008). Introduction to the theory of the early universe: Hot Big Bang theory. World Scientific

etc.

Sources I have. I even have non-technical sources that make analogies between the "creation" of black holes and the "creation" of the universe. What I don't have is any indication that the universe was ever a black hole and this paper (the source of the information in your link) doesn't agree with your statement.
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Your posts inaccurately described certain modern theories.



I don't need more sources. Just sticking with books (including textbooks), I have among others
Susskind, L., & Lindesay, J. (2005). An introduction to black holes, information and the string theory revolution. Singapore: World Scientific.
Gasperini, M. (2007). Elements of string cosmology. Cambridge University Press.
Liddle, A. (2003). An Introduction to Modern Cosmology, Second Edition. Wiley-VCH
Carroll, B. W., & Ostlie, D. A. (2006). An introduction to modern astrophysics and cosmology (Vol. 1).
Gasperini, M. (2008). The universe before the big bang: cosmology and string theory. Springer.
Sidharth, B. G. (2005). The Universe of Fluctuations: The Architecture of Spacetime and the Universe (Fundamental Theories of Physics). Springer.
Papantonopoulos, E. (Ed.). (2009). Physics of black holes: a guided tour (Vol. 769 of Lecture Notes in Physics). Springer.
Chow, T. L. (2008). Gravity, black holes, and the very early universe: an introduction to general relativity and cosmology. Springer.
Rubakov, V. A., & Gorbunov, D. S. (2008). Introduction to the theory of the early universe: Hot Big Bang theory. World Scientific

etc.

Sources I have. I even have non-technical sources that make analogies between the "creation" of black holes and the "creation" of the universe. What I don't have is any indication that the universe was ever a black hole and this paper (the source of the information in your link) doesn't agree with your statement.

In this and other postings ...I see you are well read on the topic.
but on the focus of the 'beginning'...
what do you really 'see'...?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I see a 'point' of transition.

The bible speaks of a void....no form.
It speaks of the Word....though 'speech' has no form.

Then the declaration....'let there be light'.

I 'see' that declaration synonymous to 'I AM!'

Does this make any sense to you?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have read Susskind (two books) and Gasperini ("The Universe Before the Big Bang"), plus a few others that are not on your list. Secondly, I said that it had some of the characteristics of a black hole, which is possible I may have overstated since it wouldn't be a black hole entirely, with one of the probable differences dealing with Hawking radiation.

The basic concept of a black hole is highly condensed mass under super-heated conditions, which is also believed to be similar to what was there prior to the BB. Obviously, there are numerous hypotheses dealing with whatever happened next, and my presentation of one of them (i.e. charges getting too close whereas they may have repelled, thus breaking bonds-- thus 2 expansions for the price of 1), is just one of them. As far as I know, that's the only hypothesis I presented here.

But let me get back to the point that if there was any movement whatsoever of anything, including just vibrations, that intrinsically involves time, and this is not of my invention, to be clear. If we get into some of the other hypotheses, such as M-Theory to use just one example, again movement, thus time, is involved.

Anyhow, I gotta go. Take care.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see a 'point' of transition.

The bible speaks of a void....no form.
It speaks of the Word....though 'speech' has no form.

Then the declaration....'let there be light'.

I 'see' that declaration synonymous to 'I AM!'

Does this make any sense to you?
Somewhat. It seems a more mystically-inclined version of the big bang offered by those like Gerald Schroeder (in The Hidden Face of God, except as he's Jewish the logos doctrine isn't there) or some stuff by Polkinghorne, at least in terms of the "void" that existed "before" the universe. The connection between the hortatory "let there be light" and sight to a declaration of existence I'm less certain of. Namely, are you deliberately connecting your "seeing" with a sight enabled by a command for there to be light (required for one to see) and linking the creation therefore of sight and light with existence?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Somewhat. It seems a more mystically-inclined version of the big bang offered by those like Gerald Schroeder (in The Hidden Face of God, except as he's Jewish the logos doctrine isn't there) or some stuff by Polkinghorne, at least in terms of the "void" that existed "before" the universe. The connection between the hortatory "let there be light" and sight to a declaration of existence I'm less certain of. Namely, are you deliberately connecting your "seeing" with a sight enabled by a command for there to be light (required for one to see) and linking the creation therefore of sight and light with existence?

I would be linking the ability to say 'I AM!' to the very essence of existence.
That the universe (one word) took 'form' doesn't surprise me.

I think of 'light' as the first creation.
The first evidence of spirit.
The First to 'see'.
 
Top