What can be done to stop oppressive leftists?

[Revoltingest]

That is simply wrong. A victim of rape shoots her rapist, she is solely to blame?

I'll jump in here (wanted or not).
You're fundamentally changing the context, but.....
- If she shoots her assailant in self defense, she's not the perp.
- If she later shoots her assailant out of revenge, then she is the perp, & solely responsible for this act.
But I'm OK with vigilante justice in some cases.

 

[Underhill]

I'll jump in here (wanted or not).
You're fundamentally changing the context, but.....
- If she shoots her assailant in self defense, she's not the perp.
- If she later shoots her assailant out of revenge, then she is the perp, & solely responsible for this act.
But I'm OK with vigilante justice in some cases.

That makes no sense. Vigilante justice, by definition, wouldn't exist if not for the original offense.

 

[Revoltingest]

That makes no sense. Vigilante justice, by definition, wouldn't exist if not for the original offense.

The original offense does not turn the victim into an automaton, unable to control her actions.
To later shoot the perp is her choice, & is illegal.
Make sense now?

 

[Underhill]

The original offense does not turn the victim into an automaton, unable to control her actions.
To later shoot the perp is her choice, & is illegal.
Make sense now?

No. I am not saying she is blameless. But the rapist also made a choice that led to her choice.

The same is true when revolution takes place. The people choose, based upon the actions of those in charge, to change things through whatever means they choose.

Action and reaction.

 

[Revoltingest]

No. I am not saying she is blameless. But the rapist also made a choice that led to her choice.

Aye, the important thing to recognize is that we make choices about our actions.

The same is true when revolution takes place. The people choose, based upon the actions of those in charge, to change things through whatever means they choose.

If you're comparing rioting protesters to revolutionaries overthrowing
a government, I don't buy this as justifying violence of the former.

 

[Underhill]

Aye, the important thing to recognize is that we make choices about our actions.

If you're comparing rioting protesters to revolutionaries overthrowing
a government, I don't buy this as justifying violence of the former.

It depends on the comparison. I am not saying they are both right. I am saying the root cause is the same. I think the rioters are going about it wrong, and that is on them. But the reason they are out there is the actions of Trump. In that respect it is no different than revolutionaries.

Of course I'm reasonably sure the Tories felt the same way about the violent revolutionaries. But that is another discussion.

 

[Notanumber]

If she lives in a free western country and reports it to the authorities, she has a chance of justice being done. If she did the same in an Islamic country, she would be punished for the rape anyway so she might as well shoot the guy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We're not trying to influence the other side, we're trying to influence public opinion.
I'm sure Martin Luther King never expected to influence the KKK.

Public opinion is a fickle thing. I'd rather influence public opinion by education, not by having neo-Nazi rhetoric spewed.

 

[Laika]

I think the best way to stop "oppressive" leftists or any associated violence is by getting back to the basics. The right-wing economic policies which make the rich richer, the poor poorer, and shrink the middle class are what need to be changed. The main problem with the left in recent decades is that they've allowed themselves to become distracted by social issues and have all but abandoned their economic principles. That also needs to change.

By pressing their social agenda, the left has played into the hands of the right, and as a result, they've successfully created divisions among the lower classes - black vs. white, men vs. women, etc. They might be good at raising a ruckus or disrupting college campuses, but they have little to no staying power when it comes to working class Americans. They come from completely different worlds.

It's somewhat ironic, in a way. By violently opposing a ban on Muslims, curtailed immigration, border wall, etc., they're ostensibly trying to appeal to the "bleeding heart" crowd. The implication here is that it's cruel and uncharitable for the richest nation in the world to coldly turn these refugees away. That may make perfect sense to liberals who have homes in The Hamptons, but for the average working stiff struggling to feed his family and keep a roof over their heads, it's not going to make the same impression. It's not that they're not compassionate or sympathetic, but it's often very difficult to worry about those who are far away when there's so much suffering closer to home.

Its worth mentioning that you're not the only person to say that about left wing politics. So there is obviously a pattern here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Its worth mentioning that you're not the only person to say that about left wing politics. So there is obviously a pattern here.

It's a good point. The social issues shouldn't be ignored either, though. Both should be worked on equally.

 

[LuisDantas]

That last is what is interesting - where do we draw the line regarding 'incites to violence'? Choudary, to follow this example, openly praises the "martyrs" involved in the Twin Tower attacks and the 2005 London bombings, and supports ISIS. Does preaching these sentiments count as incitement to violence?

It is absolutely demonstrable that growing up in a homophobic household is massively damaging for young LGBT+ people - preaching homophobic sentiments is increasing the likelihood of this happening, what does that count as?

Preaching against Muslims and black people etc, even if it doesn't directly call for violence, gives a narrative to those who do go and commit violence.

Violence is not a simplistic thing either - psychological violence is very real.

Maybe provisions should be made to allow or even demand a readily available counterpoint to the more explosive claims?

 

[LuisDantas]

I think what strikes me about all of this is that, since at least the 1980s, leftists have not really been free-thinkers - not like they once were. Nowadays, they act more like a bunch of trained monkeys and parrots. There's nothing wrong with protest, as long as they know what it is they're protesting against. But when they act like obvious shills of the corporate media and political machines, then it's difficult to take them seriously.

They don't even have any real coherent "ideology" anymore. That's their biggest problem. They sold out decades ago, and the worst part is, these youngsters of today don't even realize it. It's not so much a matter of what they protest against, but also noticing what they don't protest against.

In many ways, I support a lot of leftist ideals, but mainly in the economic realm - better wages, better working conditions, affordable housing/education/healthcare, etc. These are practical, tangible things to fight for, not throwing a tantrum just because someone got "offended."

For what it is worth, it sure sounds to me that you are trying to convince yourself. I have certainly not found much in the way of evidence of the truth of any of what you say.

 

[LuisDantas]

While Trump has caused his share of trouble, it still takes two to tango.
The left has done its part to make unreasonable inflammatory accusations,
thereby riling up the violent element on the left. Make him out to be Hitler,
& crazies will react as they would to Hitler.

Actually, even hypothetically, Trump is not nearly as much of a problem as the people who voted in him are.

Trump is just one person - and not a very bright one at that. It is his enablers that I fear.

 

[LuisDantas]

Is there anyone we would want to encourage to become Hitler?

Fully consciously? Probably not.

In a wider sense? By all indications, almost 63 million people, including you.

 

[Laika]

@Saint Frankenstein and @Stevicus :

Started a thread on whether class politics should make a come back. Feel free to share your thoughts.

The Return of Class Politics?

 

[LuisDantas]

What can be done to stop oppressive leftists?

(...) Where are we missing out on injecting respect for the political process and the sanctity of political speech into the ideologies of these young leftists?

It seems fairly clear to me that any effective answer must include making provisions for the protesters to believe (with good reason if at all possible) that their voices will be heard and there will be some serious attempt at dialogue.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Also, the majority of white voters voted for Trump. This includes middle class and college educated whites. This was not some white working class expression of economic grievance. This speaks of a deeper racial issue that cuts across class lines.

I'm also one of those people living in poverty. I'm not even working class since I'm not working. I'm below them, class-wise. Living in poverty doesn't automatically mean you're going to be drawn to racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, etc. movements because your life is so hard. A lot of the most backwards people when it comes to that are actually middle class people who get all smug with their bigotries through a sense of privilege. They also want to protect their economic privilege. Working class people I know take more of a "I don't care" or "live and let live" approach. Many of them, for example, admire Mexicans as hard working people and supported Obama because he actually did things to improve the lives of lower class people. However, I live in the inner city and it's a fairly progressive city at that (especially for the Midwest). There's certainly backwards rural white trash outside of that, but they didn't put Trump in the White House.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is never true. All political views should be allowed to air.

They can air them, but it should never be accepted as public policy.

 

[Mister_T]

The last time there was an organized effort originating on the right to violently shut someone's speech down?

How about punching anti-Trump protesters exercising their first amendment rights at Trump rallies? Tell me, was it a leftist who assaulted a Muslim women at JFK or shot 5 people at a mosque in Canada? Is it leftists killing abortion doctors? Is it leftists bombing or setting fire to Planned Parenthood clinics? Was it a leftist who shot people at a Unitarian Universalist church stating that he wanted to kill as many liberals and Democrats as he could?

Let's stop pretending that violent oppression is something exclusive to the left.

It is a reality. Either the violence stops or the people they are violent against will start bringing their own weapons, and then use them.

Please show me where any of these aggressive left protesters are using weapons against people? The fact that the last resort of riot police is your top and "only" choice makes it seem like you're just looking for a flimsy excuse to justify deadly force against this group of people, but please continue to tell us about how violent lefties are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A better question is how do we stop the oppressive Right, who is actually in a position of political authority to protect discrimination as a "religious right?"