What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why do I have to choose the red shirt?
All the others are in the wash.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do I have to choose the red shirt?
All the others are in the wash.

Glad to see you are my first caller.

 

[Kfox]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

If I believed in such a God, I would choose option B, because just because someone knows what I'm gonna do, does not mean I don't have the free will to do something else if I chose to.

 

[Secret Chief]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

I've chosen not to post in this thread.

 

[Nakosis]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

IMO, a set of biochemical responses in the brain we experience as desires. In some cases we act is was to either cause the biochemical responses we desire or to avoid the ones we don't.

These responses are mostly wired into our brain through evolution and we are mostly unaware of the physical processes which cause these biochemical responses.
While our brain is not an omniscient God, it certainly knows more that we are consciously aware of. It knows the choice we will make before we are consciously aware of it. This has been proven through various experiments.

So the evolutionary wiring of our brain is what causes our choices.
My question would be can we consciously alter this evolutionary wiring?
I suspect we can.

 

[cladking]

People have free will.

But they choose beliefs that make them comfortable and then they understand reality in terms of these beliefs. This means the beliefs they choose guide almost all of their acti0ns almost all the time. It guides future choices as well.

People are always free to change their beliefs but few do. Science progresses one funeral at a time because people don't often change any significant beliefs.

 

[cladking]

I've chosen not to post in this thread.

Looks like you almost succeeded.

 

[John53]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

You know my answer because we've been discussing it in another thread for days (maybe weeks, feels like weeks).

So my question is, why start another thread on free will? So we can go over the same stuff for the 200th time?

 

[Trailblazer]

You know my answer because we've been discussing it in another thread for days (maybe weeks, feels like weeks).

So my question is, why start another thread on free will? So we can go over the same stuff for the 200th time?

I started it because I wanted various opinions from various people.
I wanted to see how other people think about God's foreknowledge and how that might limit our free will.
YOU do not have to go over it again because you have free will to choose not to.

 

[John53]

I started it because I wanted various opinions from various people.
I wanted to see how other people think about God's foreknowledge and how that might limit our free will.
YOU do not have to go over it again because you have free will to choose not to.

That decision is already recorded so no I don't

 

[Spirit of Light]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

I used to ponder a lot about questions like this before, but realized it had no purpose, since i would not know if it is God who use me as a puppet, or if I am thinking or doing everything from free will.
I can only live as goid as i can, and do what i believe to be the truth.

 

[Nimos]

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

In this case nothing is forcing us to make a choice, what you would experience is the illusion of choice. I think you can compare it to riding on a train and you are looking at the tracks. And every time you get to a train shift you believe that you are the one that chooses which way the train goes. But in fact the train will simply follow the shifts.

Given that God is omniscient simply means that he knows how all the train shifts are and where the train will end up. So again, there is no causes for the choice, they are predetermined and is simply an illusion.

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

This would end up in the same as above, even if you had 1000s options to choose from, whether you change your mind in the very last second etc. If God know what you are going to choose, this would mean that it was predetermined. And you were not free to choose it.

I think you can demonstrate it fairly easy.

God knows you will choose A

Now you can "choose" between A, B and C.

You choose A.

If you would have chosen anything else, God would have known it already.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

I think we have free will with restrictions

 

[Trailblazer]

People have free will.

But they choose beliefs that make them comfortable and then they understand reality in terms of these beliefs.

If you are referring to religious beliefs, I do not think that people necessarily choose beliefs that make them most comfortable. I mean I do not think that all people choose beliefs for that reason. I think some people choose a religion because they have determined that the religion is true, but that does not mean they are comfortable.

This means the beliefs they choose guide almost all of their actions almost all the time. It guides future choices as well.

That is probably true.

People are always free to change their beliefs but few do. Science progresses one funeral at a time because people don't often change any significant beliefs.

I agree. People are free to change their religious beliefs but most people never change those beliefs. Why they don't change them is debatable, but I have my own ideas.

 

[Trailblazer]

That decision is already recorded so no I don't

But you do have free will to choose not to talk about it anymore.

 

[Sheldon]

Why do I have to choose the red shirt?
All the others are in the wash.

You claimed that was set in stone though, so you couldn't have changed any of it.

 

[John53]

But you do have free will to choose not to talk about it anymore.

Not if your theory is correct, I made that decision before I existed.

 

[exchemist]

I've chosen not to post in this thread.

...said the Cretan.

 

[Trailblazer]

In this case nothing is forcing us to make a choice, what you would experience is the illusion of choice. I think you can compare it to riding on a train and you are looking at the tracks. And every time you get to a train shift you believe that you are the one that chooses which way the train goes. But in fact the train will simply follow the shifts.

Given that God is omniscient simply means that he knows how all the train shifts are and where the train will end up. So again, there is no causes for the choice, they are predetermined and is simply an illusion.

Why do you think that our choices are predetermined just because God has foreknowledge of what we will choose? Predetermination and foreknowledge are not the same. According to my beliefs, God's perfect foreknowledge does not determine what will happen, so foreknowledge does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

This would end up in the same as above, even if you had 1000s options to choose from, whether you change your mind in the very last second etc. If God know what you are going to choose, this would mean that it was predetermined. And you were not free to choose it.

Why does the fact that God knows what you will choose mean that you cannot choose from more than one option?

I think you can demonstrate it fairly easy.

God knows you will choose A
Now you can "choose" between A, B and C.
You choose A.

If you would would have chosen anything else, God would have known it already.

That is correct.

If you had chosen A, God would have known you were going to choose A.
If you had chosen B, God would have known you were going to choose B.
If you had chosen C, God would have known you were going to choose C.

I think we have free will with restrictions

I agree.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not if your theory is correct, I made that decision before I existed.

No, I never said that. I said that God knew what decision you would make before you existed, but you did not make the decision until you made the decision.