What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Heyo]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

The idea that everything is predestined is known as determinism. Only in a deterministic world is knowledge of the future possible. But the idea that the knowledge of the future causes the events is irrational. Everything is predetermined independent of the knowledge about it.
In such a deterministic universe free will is impossible, even for a god. All its actions or inactions are also predetermined. Such a god would be completely impotent against "fate", even with omniscience.
Our world seems to be deterministic on the macro level but random at the quantum level. That makes limited predictions possible but they can't be 100% sure.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

Having no belief in God, I can safely point out that there really is no difference at all between what you consider Positions A and B. One you posit a deity that knows everything you will do, even if that deity is somehow "outside of time" means that you don't and never did have a choice. It cannot possibly mean anything else. (From the perspective of a deity "outside of time" you don't make choices one at a time, but rather all your choices are nothing but a roadmap of the permanent geography of your existence.)

I believe that our unconscious brain makes many of our choices, as-it-were "for us." But since it is our own unconscious, it is still us. Not being conscious of making the decision doesn't mean that it isn't "you" making it. (In the same way, while you might be unconscious under anaesthetic during a surgery, and are not aware of the procedure going on, it is still happening to you.)

But further, I believe that our conscious (and unconscious) minds reflect on the choices thus made, and that reflection feeds back into the system and modifies the thousands of "modules" that make us who we are, so that the choices we make in future -- even if still made by our unconscious selves -- have been at least informed by what has happened before. In other words, how we feel about what we've done helps to make us who we become, and therefore helps to mold our future cchoices.

 

[syo]

All my choices depend on how greedy I am.

 

[George-ananda]

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Position C: The entire universe is a play/drama of God and God is the scriptwriter. He then separates His consciousness into individual rays and He plays all the roles. So at the ultimate level we are roles written by God's play but also ultimately we are that God so in that sense we have ultimate free-will in writing the script just as a playwright has free-will over the play he writes.

However from the everyday perspective we have the experience of making free choices and experiencing the results. Is it free will or not free will is just a matter of perspective.

 

[John53]

No, I never said that. I said that God knew what decision you would make before you existed, but you did not make the decision until you made the decision.

If he knew, it has been made. Logic as you keep saying. Anyway it doesn't really matter, like all good fairy tales the good guys get to live happily ever after in paradise with a mansion and 40 virgins.

I think the better question is: why is God (if he/she/it exists) bothering with all this?

 

[Trailblazer]

Having no belief in God, I can safely point out that there really is no difference at all between what you consider Positions A and B. One you posit a deity that knows everything you will do, even if that deity is somehow "outside of time" means that you don't and never did have a choice. It cannot possibly mean anything else.

Why do you think that a deity who knows everything you will do causes you do do what you will do? That would be predetermination, but there is no reason to think that God predetermines everything you will do just because God knows everything you will ever do.

(From the perspective of a deity "outside of time" you don't make choices one at a time, but rather all your choices are nothing but a roadmap of the permanent geography of your existence.)

According to my beliefs that is true but the choices that appear on the roadmap are choices you made throughout your life. God knew what those choices would be because God is all-knowing but God did not cause you to make those choices. You made those choices because you have free will to choose.

I believe that our unconscious brain makes many of our choices, as-it-were "for us." But since it is our own unconscious, it is still us. Not being conscious of making the decision doesn't mean that it isn't "you" making it. (In the same way, while you might be unconscious under anaesthetic during a surgery, and are not aware of the procedure going on, it is still happening to you.)

But further, I believe that our conscious (and unconscious) minds reflect on the choices thus made, and that reflection feeds back into the system and modifies the thousands of "modules" that make us who we are, so that the choices we make in future -- even if still made by our unconscious selves -- have been at least informed by what has happened before. In other words, how we feel about what we've done helps to make us who we become, and therefore helps to mold our future choices.

Well said. I fully agree with all of the above.

 

[John53]

...said the Cretan.

I made the mistake of googling that, now I'll be thinking about it all day.

 

[Trailblazer]

If he knew, it has been made. Logic as you keep saying.

No, I do not consider that logical. Just because God knows what we are going to make that does not mean that the choice has been made. The choice has not been made until we make the choice. God has always known what that choice will be because God has perfect foreknowledge.

Anyway it doesn't really matter, like all good fairy tales the good guys get to live happily ever after in paradise with a mansion and 40 virgins.

I do not believe that will be the case, not according to my beliefs.

I think the better question is: why is God (if he/she/it exists) bothering with all this?

God is not bothering with any of this, I am bothering with it for the reasons I already gave you.
I might be sorry, but it won't be the first time I was sorry I posted a new thread.

 

[John53]

No, I do not consider that logical. Just because God knows what we are going to make that does not mean that the choice has been made. The choice has not been made until we make the choice. God has always known what that choice will be because God has perfect foreknowledge.

I do not believe that will be the case, not according to my beliefs.

God is not bothering with any of this, I am bothering with it for the reasons I already gave you.
I might be sorry, but it won't be the first time I was sorry I posted a new thread.

I wasn't talking about the thread, I was talking about life, the universe etc. Why did God bother if he knew the result and what a failure it would be.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why do you think that a deity who knows everything you will do causes you do do what you will do? That would be predetermination, but there is no reason to think that God predetermines everything you will do just because God knows everything you will ever do.

According to my beliefs that is true but the choices that appear on the roadmap are choices you made throughout your life. God knew what those choices would be because God is all-knowing but God did not cause you to make those choices. You made those choices because you have free will to choose.

I did not see I think that God "causes" me to do what I do. How could I, since I don't believe in God? But if God knows beforehand what I might do in future (or if God is outside time, then the choice at point x,y,z,t is fixed in 4 dimensions), then I am now unable to make that choice. If I am unable to make a choice to do otherwise, then the choice is indeed fixed, and it has nothing to do with me -- unless one assumes that my entire life is fixed -- and that is predetermination.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..if God knows beforehand what I might do in future (or if God is outside time, then the choice at point x,y,z,t is fixed in 4 dimensions), then I am now unable to make that choice. If I am unable to make a choice to do otherwise, then the choice is indeed fixed...

It is all a matter of perspective.
You say the choice "at point x,y,z,t is fixed in 4 dimensions", then I am now unable to make that choice.

However, I see that you ARE able to make the choice .. that 4 dimensional point is FIXED by that choice .. and not the choice fixed by the point.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wasn't talking about the thread, I was talking about life, the universe etc. Why did God bother if he knew the result and what a failure it would be.

Why do you think it is a failure? The world situation might look pretty bleak right now but there is always more to come in the future.

 

[John53]

Why do you think it is a failure? The world situation might look pretty bleak right now but there is always more to come in the future.

Doesn't answer my question but how far back in history do you want me to go? Now is pretty good compared to even 100 or so years ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

if God knows beforehand what I might do in future (or if God is outside time, then the choice at point x,y,z,t is fixed in 4 dimensions), then I am now unable to make that choice.

Why is your choice fixed just because God knows you are going to do?

If I am unable to make a choice to do otherwise, then the choice is indeed fixed, and it has nothing to do with me -- unless one assumes that my entire life is fixed -- and that is predetermination.

Why do you think the choice is fixed?
You will do what God knows you will do, whatever that is, but you can choose from more than one option. Whatever you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Doesn't answer my question but how far back in history do you want me to go? Now is pretty good compared to even 100 or so years ago.

That is sort of my point. Life on earth has been gradually improving.
God has always known it would improve as that was God's Will and Purpose for mankind.

 

[exchemist]

I made the mistake of googling that, now I'll be thinking about it all day.

Heh heh.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why is your choice fixed just because God knows you are going to do?

Why do you think the choice is fixed?
You will do what God knows you will do, whatever that is, but you can choose from more than one option. Whatever you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.

If I knew that somebody was going to kill another person in a year -- why don't I just punish him now? Then I'll make sure that a) justice is served, and b) he won't be able to do it, which will be a great relief to the now-no-longer victim. (Of course, as it turns out, I would then have punished the might-have-been offender unjustly, but hell, you can't have everything, right? )

 

[idea]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

I think we are all connected - the happiness, choices, and success of one is tied to the support and teaching of all those around them, as is unhappiness.

It is not just one person making a choice, it is everything and everyone contributing to that choice.

A poem Thich Nhat Hanh, "Please call me by my true names"

 

[osgart]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

God would then be able to read us like an extremely predictable book. I don't think humans are extremely predictable though.

And being all knowing, all choices possible each second would be easily before God's eyes.

If we are created by such a God, then that God would know our ideal blueprint of what makes us all tick. The ultimate knowledge of good and evil would be well accounted for in humanity's choices.

So in a created world God would know all possibilities. Yet we are born at random with sperm and egg. Unless you think the soul is born of spirit and then introduced to the zygote upon conception.

I'd have to do way too many mental gymnastics to ever think such a God exists. I mean there wouldn't be any privacy whatsoever. Ugh!

 

[leroy]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?

Free will (our minds) are the cause for why we choose what we choose.