What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

If I knew that somebody was going to kill another person in a year -- why don't I just punish him now? Then I'll make sure that a) justice is served, and b) he won't be able to do it, which will be a great relief to the now-no-longer victim. (Of course, as it turns out, I would then have punished the might-have-been offender unjustly, but hell, you can't have everything, right? )

If my friend John told me he was gong to kill his wife Linda in a year -- why doesn't the justice system just punish him now? That would ensure that a) justice is served, and b) he won't be able to do it, which will be a great relief to Linda. Of course John might change his mind and I would then have punished John unjustly, but hell, you can't have everything, right?

P.S. We cannot punish anyone according to what God knows they are going to do because we can never know what God knows they are going to do. Only God knows what they are going to do and God also knows if they might change their mind at the last minute. All is recorded on the Tablet of Fate.

 

[Clara Tea]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Clara Tea's opinion:

Some psychics see only one branch of the future, but the really good ones see many. For example, when God sent His Prophecies to earth, just prior to the war in Iraq, they were surprised to see that there were no options. It was as if President W. Bush's mind was like a steel trap....rusted shut. Nothing is more immovable than a mind that cannot be changed. Most times, humans are able to change their views, so there are multiple branches of the future, and people are free to choose them. Some events can't be easily changed (earthquakes), and some events could easily be changed (don't fly today). The Prophets of God confirmed the prophecy of Revelation, that the Bush president's souls were very powerful demons with horribly bad intentions (torture camps, environmental destruction, war, etc.), and they were scared by their tremendous psychic powers, having never probed a powerful demon from hell before. The bible says that W. Bush is the beast (that is the person who attacked Iraq, according to the bible), and his father was the dragon, and the US is the Whore of Babylon (from Revelation 17:18).

With the help of psychics, they can choose the right path, knowing the outcomes. However, sometimes taking the right path has a wrong outcome. Consider saving baby Hitler's life....then he grows up to be Hitler. Or, what if someone knew that baby Hitler could be taught, as a baby, to become something greater? What would have happened if the US had been passive, and allowed Hitler to dominate the world...the US would have done the right (peaceful) thing, but the outcome would have resulted in the total destruction of Jews and other minorities, and power to the insane dictators.

Many felons clutch bibles to their chests, get onto their knees and hope that the probation board is watching, and get out of prison because they are "thought to be" holy. The bloodthirsty murderer, Reverend Tex Watson (infamous murderous Manson Family), comes to mind. In his recent posting, Reverend Tex Watson said that he was worried that he couldn't live up to his parents expectations (college), so he murdered (he hasn't changed his mind, but now hides behind a bible).

Spaniards, greedy for gold, greedy to get into heaven, chose the religion of their parents (Christianity), then brutally defeated Mayans, stole their gold (as they also did to the Aztecs), then forced them to stop reading their glyphs (writing). They destroyed every bit of writing that they could, except for undiscovered temples. From those sparse records, this year, most of the writing has finally been deciphered, and they are getting their writing (and therefore, their history) back. The Spaniard's goal was to enslave ignorant savages (though they were an advanced culture with medicine and architecture), and scare them with Christianity to control them. After the earlier collapse of the Mayan civilization, many Mayans could still read the glyphs, until the Spaniards invaded.

Father Junipero Serra (founder of California missions, recently sainted by the Catholic church) beat, murdered, and enslaved native Americans to build the chain of missions, for which he was sainted.

At the Salem witch trials, it was obvious that religious leaders were compelled by Satan's fear to ignore God (thou shalt not kill), and weild power (literally played God....life or death), and commanded great respect for their cruelties.

Dutch Shultz (Arthur Simon Flegenheimer born of orthodox Jewish parents August 6, 1901), was a member of the Purple Gang of Detroit (Jewish organized crime), at a time when they merged with Mafia Godfather, Scarface, Al Capone to pit the Purple Gang against the Irish Chicago gang (decimating members of both, thrusting Capone ahead in organized crime).

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/499195939918549782/

Please look at a picture of the gravestone of Dutch Shultz (Flegenheimer), above. I suspect that Dutch was trying to seem less Jewish at a time when Jews were discriminated, so took the name Dutch, and had crosses on his gravestone. He died in 1935, as Hitler was rising to power.

Putin chose Christianity, yet now kills peaceful Ukrainians. Isn't it obvious that those who choose to defy God (thou shalt not kill) are not really Christians at all.

When President George H. W. Bush was campaigning for governor of the former confederate state of Texas, on the sole platform to destroy the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1965, he found that his opposition was Christian, so he had to pretend to be more Christians (or lose the election). Ditto, George W. Bush (the son) later was faced with the same political reality, and chose to outdo Christians by pretending to be Christian (in order to win elections).....it worked. By lying, president W. Bush was able to defeat triple amputee McClellan (war veteran), by stating that he was a war hero (intentionally assigned to Texas, not Vietnam, to learn how to fly an obsolete plane that would never be used abroad...arranged for political favors).

I think that life is a combination of having one path sometimes, and many paths other times.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If my friend John told me he was gong to kill his wife Linda in a year -- why doesn't the justice system just punish him now? That would ensure that a) justice is served, and b) he won't be able to do it, which will be a great relief to Linda. Of course John might change his mind and I would then have punished John unjustly, but hell, you can't have everything, right?

Obviously, you can't see what you've done logically here, because much of what you do has nothing to do with logic anyway.

But let me try to explain: you translated what I said ("if I knew") into "told me he was going to," and then went on to pretend that those are one and the same thing. But obviously, they are not the same thing!

You yourself brought up that "John might change his mind." But in saying that God "knows" (infallibly), includes the implicit fact that there can be no change of mind -- otherwise, how could God know?

P.S. We cannot punish anyone according to what God knows they are going to do because we can never know what God knows they are going to do. Only God knows what they are going to do and God also knows if they might change their mind at the last minute. All is recorded on the Tablet of Fate.

And now, for the coupe-de-grace, you try to explain away this faulty reasoning by claiming only that "we can't know what God knows." But that is not the heart of the issue at all. The heart of the issue if that if God knows something that "will happen," and knows it infallibly, then there is nothing that can change that.

You are special pleading all over the place. Special pleading is not a useful argument.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd have to do way too many mental gymnastics to ever think such a God exists. I mean there wouldn't be any privacy whatsoever. Ugh!

No, for those of us who believe that kind of God exists, there is no privacy because God knows our every thought, even the unconscious thoughts we do not know!

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

The upside is that this gives us motivation to good thoughts and actions, since we cannot hide anything from God. Also, even if we feel unworthy as I often do, God knows if we are worthy, so it all comes out in the wash.

I do not think that God holds us responsible for our thoughts as much as for our actions.
Nevertheless, Baha'u'llah wrote that we should keep our secret thoughts pure.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

 

[Trailblazer]

It is not just one person making a choice, it is everything and everyone contributing to that choice.

I agree. No man is an island so our choices affect others and we can never know when or how much.

 

[Trailblazer]

You yourself brought up that "John might change his mind." But in saying that God "knows" (infallibly), includes the implicit fact that there can be no change of mind -- otherwise, how could God know?

Why can't John change his mind? Like I said, God knows if John is going to change his mind.

And now, for the coupe-de-grace, you try to explain away this faulty reasoning by claiming only that "we can't know what God knows." But that is not the heart of the issue at all. The heart of the issue if that if God knows something that "will happen," and knows it infallibly, then there is nothing that can change that.

That is true. What will happen is exactly what God knows will happen because God can never be wrong.
I never said we could change what God knows but if we change our minds that will be what God has always known was going to happen.

You are special pleading all over the place. Special pleading is not a useful argument.

How is what I said special pleading?

 

[John53]

That is sort of my point. Life on earth has been gradually improving.
God has always known it would improve as that was God's Will and Purpose for mankind.

Or did it reach its pinnacle with the invention of the flushing toilet?

Anyway I still want to know why God (if he exists) bothers with it all?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why can't John change his mind? Like I said, God knows if John is going to change his mind.

That is true. What will happen is exactly what God knows will happen because God can never be wrong.
I never said we could change what God knows but if we change our minds that will be what God has always known was going to happen.

How is what I said special pleading?

I'll leave that to you. I've done what I can to show you how, and if you don't want to, you won't.

Let me just point out -- in your earlier post, you suggested that "John could change his mind," and now you are suggesting that "God already knew that John would change his mind." This is special pleading. You have precisely ZERO knowledge about what God knows and doesn't know -- but you have laid it out as fact, and expect the rest of us to agree. Why should we? That's special pleading.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or did it reach its pinnacle with the invention of the flushing toilet?

No, humanity has a ways to go and there is no end to the progress humanity can make.

Anyway I still want to know why God (if he exists) bothers with it all?

Bothers with what all?

 

[John53]

No, humanity has a ways to go and there is no end to the progress humanity can make.

Bothers with what all?

OMG! What we're talking about! Life the universe everything. Why did he go ahead with the stupid experiment when he knows the result?

 

[John53]

OMG! What we're talking about! Life the universe everything. Why did he go ahead with the stupid experiment when he knows the result?

Sorry for the lack of patience but I'm dying from self diagnosed covid.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me just point out -- in your earlier post, you suggested that "John could change his mind," and now you are suggesting that "God already knew that John would change his mind." This is special pleading. You have precisely ZERO knowledge about what God knows and doesn't know -- but you have laid it out as fact, and expect the rest of us to agree. Why should we? That's special pleading.

It is common for atheists to call religious beliefs special pleading but religious beliefs are not special pleading because God is a special exception.

Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the special exception.[1][2][3][4][5] It is the application of a double standard.[6][7]
Special pleading - Wikipedia

I am not laying anything out as a fact. I am just sharing my belief. I have no expectation that anyone will agree with my belief. This is a forum where people share beliefs and non-beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

OMG! What we're talking about! Life the universe everything. Why did he go ahead with the stupid experiment when he knows the result?

God went ahead because God knows the result! Do I have to spell it out for you? Okay I will.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry for the lack of patience but I'm dying from self diagnosed covid.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[Nimos]

Why do you think that our choices are predetermined just because God has foreknowledge of what we will choose? Predetermination and foreknowledge are not the same. According to my beliefs, God's perfect foreknowledge does not determine what will happen, so foreknowledge does not cause the actions of men.

Why does the fact that God knows what you will choose mean that you cannot choose from more than one option?

As I see it these become linked when God have foreknowledge.

Lets take a series of events where you have 3 options in each event as an example. So in event 1, you can choose A, B, C in event 2 you can do the same and so forth.

Given that we don't know which you will choose in each event we can refer to them as X and the number of event. So for instance event 1 we could call X(1), event 2 X(2) and so forth. So if we have 5 events we can write them like this:

X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5)

God having foreknowledge means that he will know what X is in each event, before you choose them. So even if you at each step decide between A, B or C, God will already know what these are, which we can call the final result. For instance:

A -> A -> B -> C -> B

And since he knows any combination you might choose before hand. We can equally refer to this in the same way as with you:

X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5)

So no matter what you will end up with this being true:

God foreknowledge: X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5) = Your choices: X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5)

Meaning that you will always end up choosing what God knows to be true. Because if you didn't, God couldn't have foreknowledge. So these two are not the same:

Your choices: X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5) = God: X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5)
(God doesn't have foreknowledge, he simply know what you chose after you chose them.)

God foreknowledge: X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5) = Your choices: X(1) -> X(2) -> X(3) -> X(4) -> X(5)
(God have foreknowledge)

Does that make sense?

 

[John53]

God went ahead because God knows the result! Do I have to spell it out for you? Okay I will.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

Apparently yes you do.

Probably less than 1% of the worlds population over the entirety of history are going to qualify for paradise so why bother going through with it, he knows who so just shove them in paradise and don't bother us heathens.

 

[John53]

Sorry to hear that.

I'll probably survive, the test came back negative, was probably just allergies.

 

[Trailblazer]

Apparently yes you do.

Probably less than 1% of the worlds population over the entirety of history are going to qualify for paradise so why bother going through with it, he knows who so just shove them in paradise and don't bother us heathens.

Did you see anything in that quote about paradise or heathens and who is going to qualify?
In the future everyone will believe in God so everyone will qualify.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll probably survive, the test came back negative, was probably just allergies.

Well, that's good, glad you have a test. I never got covid and I am not vaccinated.

 

[Pudding]

Definition of freewill:
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Definition of discretion:
the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.

Definition of freedom:
the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants.

Definition of choice:
an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.
- the right or ability to choose.
- a range of possibilities from which one or more may be chosen.

Definition of possibility:
a thing that may happen or be the case.
- the state or fact of being possible; likelihood.
- a thing that may be chosen or done out of several possible alternatives.

Definition of ability:
possession of the means or skill to do something.

Definition of right: (noun)
a moral or legal entitlement to have or do something.

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

I am not suggesting that free will means that we can choose anything we want to choose because free will has many constraints, but if humans have no volition and we never chose to do anything how would anything ever happen in this world?

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

For actions that are under our control, what causes us to choose them?
Reason can be:
- the process/consequence of a specific action make us happy/comfortable/healthy/benefit us in some other way, so we do it.
- because people say the process/consequence of a specific action will likely benefit us, so we try it out.
- we don't know and nobody has tell us whether or not the process/consequence of a specific action will benefit us, we try it out out of curiosity or just killing time.
- a specific action doesn't benefit us much, neither does it brings much disadvantage to us, we do it to killing time.
- a specific action will bring us benefit and disadvantage at the same time, we decide whether we want to do it or not.
- a specific action will not benefit us, instead it'll bring us many disadvantage, we do it because we're killing time or because we're masochism or because the disadvantage is what we desire?
- we engage in a specific action because it's a habit or because of obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Whether a specific action brings benefit/disadvantage can be debatable. Some are easily demonstrable. Some are unverifiable. Some are down to personal taste.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Thanks, Trailblazer

No idea.