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What causes people to choose what they choose?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No what I want to know is why God (if he exists(it's getting tiresome typing this everytime)) bothered with creating the universe when he could have just sent the winners direct to paradise with memories of what they did?
If the winners did not do anything how could they have memories of what they did?

The winners do not get to go to paradise without doing anything. The whole purpose of this life is to prepare our soul by acquiring spiritual virtues, building our character.
And probably more importantly... why is God(if he exists) bothering at all? Seems like we're just pets of some evil genius.
God bothers with us because God loves us. God created us out of His love for us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
First, I see no way to escape from theological determinism. An omnipotent, omniscient, perfect God made the universe, perfectly and exactly knowing everything without exception that would happen as a consequence of [his] making it this way, that way or the other way.
God created this world knowing everything that will ever happen perfectly and exactly without exception.
That is what it means to be omniscient.
And [he] made it this way, which means that [he] intended from the start for each person to act exactly as they do and there is no possible way for anyone to vary, even by the width of a quark, from what God perfectly foresaw and intended and causatively brought about.
The fly in your ointment is that God did not intend for anyone to act in any particular way.
God gave man free will so man could choose to act any way he wanted.
God has always known how man would act but God's foreknowledge does not cause human actions.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The upside is that this gives us motivation to good thoughts and actions, since we cannot hide anything from God. Also, even if we feel unworthy as I often do, God knows if we are worthy, so it all comes out in the wash. ;)
That doesn't fit in with your believe in determinism. There is no such thing as motivation in determinism - or choice to do or think good. It is all already determined.

Determinism is like a book. The story is already written. The characters in the story can't change the story and those who know the story, know it because it was predetermined. Maybe it is because some of the things happening in the story can only happen because those who know of them, cause them by going out of their way to prevent them. Those scenarios make great stories. (See Oedipus.)
The Fates (if they exist) have a wicked kind of humour.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
If the winners did not do anything how could they have memories of what they did?

Awww come on, are you messing with me? I said it in the question, God (if he exists(I need a macro for this)) gives them the memories. He already knows what they did before they did it and I'm sure it's within his power to implant memories so why bother running the experiment.

The winners do not get to go to paradise without doing anything. The whole purpose of this life is to prepare our soul by acquiring spiritual virtues, building our character.
They don't have to do a thing, he already knows what they will do.

God bothers with us because God loves us. God created us out of His love for us.

Doesn't make sense. There must be some reason or purpose.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That doesn't fit in with your believe in determinism. There is no such thing as motivation in determinism - or choice to do or think good. It is all already determined.
I do not believe in determinism. I believe we have free will.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I knew I was going to be sorry I started this thread. :D
But for some reason I was compelled to do it even though I knew the risk.
And God did not stop me because I had the free will to choose.:(
Maybe "god" wanted you to realize how illogical your believe in determinism is?
(If god exists. Or you already know that determinism is a bad philosophy, even if it is true and you are just looking for someone to explain that to you?)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fly in your ointment is that God did not intend for anyone to act in any particular way.
[He] must have. Otherwise [he]'d have created the universe so that things [he] didn't want to happen would never happen.

With perfect knowledge and perfect power, God can't escape the fact that the universe MUST be EXACTLY as [he] intended when he made it. And there's nothing we can do about it. I'm therefore writing this sentence because nearly 14 bn years ago, that was exactly what [he] intended, typos and all.
God gave man free will so man could choose to act any way he wanted.
In that case [he] can't lay claim to being omnipotent, omniscient or perfect, because if true, [he] doesn't have a clue what I'm going to type next.

But there's no reason why [he] couldn't have perfect knowledge, since in reality there's no way I can decide what to write here independently of the way my particular brain works, with its various capacities and weaknesses, cultural and linguistic background, its education, experience, hobbies, fascinations, dislikes, and so on. It makes my decisions as a result of the interaction of many complex chains of cause and effect, which it performs and the conscious I has no access to.

For example, where are >these immediate words< in the moment before I type them? In my brain's speech-composing mechanisms, modified in various ways for the written medium, but NOT in my conscious mind. The censor in my forebrain might call me back to fix something, but that too is automated.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Probably less than 1% of the worlds population over the entirety of history are going to qualify for paradise so why bother going through with it, he knows who so just shove them in paradise and don't bother us heathens.

You are confused due to misunderstanding how God knows what will happen. God cannot know that we are going to make such-and-such a choice if we are not even here to make it. :)
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
You are confused due to misunderstanding how God knows what will happen. God cannot know that we are going to make such-and-such a choice if we are not even here to make it. :)

I disagree, I would say I'm too logical to accept nonsense excuse for an absent super being.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..if that is the case, then your choices are already decided otherwise God couldn't know them.

Therefore:
"God knowing your choices" must come before "You making your choices"
It is our perception that the future "has not happened yet".
For God, His perception is that the future has happened already. It is as if this universe is like a bottle in a time warp, in which we are oblivious to. We consider our perception of time as the only one possible .. as absolute.

Our choices aren't made until we make them, as far as we are concerned .. God's ability to see the future does not change this.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I disagree, I would say I'm too logical to accept nonsense excuse for an absent super being.
How is it logical to suggest that God could know the future in a world that He "did not bother to create"?
This universe is like a bubble that is in a time warp. God is outside of the bubble and can see all of time, while for us, it is the reality that the future has not happened yet.
Nothing illogical about that .. it is just a matter of belief about the nature of reality.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
How is it logical to suggest that God could know the future in a world that He "did not bother to create"?

Seems it would be easy for a god. If he knows it will happen why bother going through with it. Or are you suggesting he has limits? Or are you suggesting it's not set in stone and might change?

This universe is like a bubble that is in a time warp. God is outside of the bubble and can see all of time, while for us, it is the reality that the future has not happened yet.
Nothing illogical about that .. it is just a matter of belief about the nature of reality.

You keep saying it yet offer no evidence for it. To believe something without evidence is illogical.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Suppose you were shown a script of your life written out before your birth by your creator that you only learned about recently and are now reading. Your past is correct in every detail. The script even has you reading the script at one point, so you realize that you have reached the present in this timeline. What do you think about your free will? Did you have any? It sure felt like it. You had desires over the years and acted on many of them.

That's free will, right? But an omniscient creator knew every choice you would make before you did, and could write it before you were born. Do you still feel like you're the captain of the ship of self, or are you an observer watching the inevitable play out?

Suppose you look ahead and see the script for tomorrow and the rest of your future. Would you be able to look ahead to tomorrow and say that you won't make that mistake the script shows you making? If you could, if you could choose to go off script, is your creator still omniscient? If you can't, do you have free will?

I am asking what causes human actions that are chosen, what causes us to choose them.
I am not asking what causes things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

All we know is that we have desires that we like to make happen and often do. We don't know what role consciousness plays in the process beyond observer. It might not be the source of the desires or the decision to make them happen. Neural processes outside of consciousness and responsible for consciousness may be the source of those urges, and we merely notice ourselves getting thirsty and getting a drink, thinking that that was our idea because nobody else is their to claim authorship, although we don't recall deciding to be thirsty, just to getting a drink. We weren't free to choose our will - the desire to get a drink - just our behavior, and even that is not so certain.

If by free will all that we mean is that we experience desires and act on them, then yes, that happens, but we cannot tell from that whether we actually had a choice or it only felt like it.

How could we possibly decide if we were free to choose otherwise, or it only felt like it? I don't think we can.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A human group agreed scientist called his thinking Satanism.

Live under all changed earth guises how a human satanist behaves.

Doesn't use God by title as god meant natural science observation about biologies survival on earth living. By humans in natural first science human only observations of natural form.

They identify not with or as humans is their advice. By choice.

The isms.

Said by thesis all man science as itself. Controlled by human men only.

Nuclear dust. Nuclear dust reacting. Machine science. Removing by conversion a constant mass of god the earth seals daily. O planets mass.

Hadn't done it yet knowing he hadn't. As new mass reacted removed. As a new again theory about when he time shifts earth mass by nuclear science. About earths mass disappearance his new machine button pushing would work.

A new reaction. Collider.

It overheated as sciences own machine overheats first position of science... nuclear plant in Japan.

Human science.
Human science claiming by nuclear radiation background in the reaction I remove the face of God earth.

Knowingly. Told. Knew. Was advised. Position already occurring in human machine science.

I'm doing it.
I'm heating earth ground and now I want electricity not water to walk on.
I'm not yet removing earths mass then i do it by science.

Said I know what I want. Yet water heated not electricity evaporates.

All machines human known human advised human theories. Human science only by human's as humans. Knowledge just science.

Guess what human scientists are lifes destroyer.

They knew what they were already achieving time shifting removing earths mass via human science.

They hadn't yet removed the amount of earth mass to cause said new machine to own attack. Then caused it by sciences own earth mass attack above by all new machine experiments with nuclear plant.

Only humans hadn't yet removed earths mass by machine to make it disappear. Yet they knew they would.

Named it an experiment yet knew eventually by science causes it would occur then stop.

As space vacuum owns planet earths mass position first.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Suppose you were shown a script of your life written out before your birth by your creator that you only learned about recently and are now reading. Your past is correct in every detail. The script even has you reading the script at one point, so you realize that you have reached the present in this timeline. What do you think about your free will? Did you have any? It sure felt like it. You had desires over the years and acted on many of them.

That's free will, right? But an omniscient creator knew every choice you would make before you did, and could write it before you were born. Do you still feel like you're the captain of the ship of self, or are you an observer watching the inevitable play out?

Suppose you look ahead and see the script for tomorrow and the rest of your future. Would you be able to look ahead to tomorrow and say that you won't make that mistake the script shows you making? If you could, if you could choose to go off script, is your creator still omniscient? If you can't, do you have free will?



All we know is that we have desires that we like to make happen and often do. We don't know what role consciousness plays in the process beyond observer. It might not be the source of the desires or the decision to make them happen. Neural processes outside of consciousness and responsible for consciousness may be the source of those urges, and we merely notice ourselves getting thirsty and getting a drink, thinking that that was our idea because nobody else is their to claim authorship, although we don't recall deciding to be thirsty, just to getting a drink. We weren't free to choose our will - the desire to get a drink - just our behavior, and even that is not so certain.

If by free will all that we mean is that we experience desires and act on them, then yes, that happens, but we cannot tell from that whether we actually had a choice or it only felt like it.

How could we possibly decide if we were free to choose otherwise, or it only felt like it? I don't think we can.
As i live irradiated I own a human mental health condition I'm mad said science of men.

Yet madness didn't invent science which makes him a cruel liar. A spiritual man had. A DAM I think I'm MAD liar. I'm the alpha.

Alpha what?

Human. I thought two hu man's are equal...lying again.

He caused a recording state that exists a long time in status living biology to a state so it precedes us recorded recording of living biologies.

Communicates back advising us before life ourselves as it was our own spirit record of advised.

Any one self aware. Lots of humans aren't aware wonder what you discuss.

Scientist. Father. Baby man adult father theist scientist liar.

You didn't own any script about free will baby life to adult human experiences as born by sex only human.

Your human script organised rich man group controls only.

You liar however told us to use names. For civilisation you organised.

So by causes all humans get involved in man of science name use just as humans. As I proved to myself.

As you are our father baby man liar.

The script you wrote as satanist theist how to destroy family.

So whilst you use mind computer satellite program as a virtual dead man of science you wondered why AI changed our brain and biology.

By pulsed transmitted attacks you name as an experiment. By a humans thought control. Hence as you kill of family you kill off yourself. As I told you what date time is your natural death as your prediction?

As you invented all causes express and control all causes human baby man father of machine science.

Everything you human say you human mean.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
If by free will all that we mean is that we experience desires and act on them, then yes, that happens, but we cannot tell from that whether we actually had a choice or it only felt like it.
If you choose to jump in front of a car, you will find out whether that choice was real or not .. or only "felt like it". :oops:

Most people will consider that, the actions of a mad person .. and not that we had no choice.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Thats a position of hard determinism to say we dont have free-will. Even in the position of hard determinism, free-will is accommodated. Not in a naturalistic philosophical manner, but within the theology where God has knowledge. The problem remains we tend to think God knows what I will do the next minute, and there is only one variable. Do you understand? One variable means I am going to drink tea at 5:15 PM today and that's the only think I am going to do at that time, and God knows it. I have no other option or any chance of doing anything else.

IN this case also, what you should know is that this knowledge of God matter could also mean God knows every single variable. Just that, we don't understand the variables.

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

I think my comments above still resonates with this position of yours.

Nevertheless, philosophers argue about determinism and libertarianism. Atheists too. A lot of atheistic philosophers argue for determinism, as well as the flip side. Thus, even some atheists dont believe in free will, and claim that we have already been determined in our actions. Thus, this is not necessarily a God problem.

So bottomline is, a strong position is that every occurrence, action, are either determined by causality, or random. What one must think about is that lets say a person is today worrying about free will, what caused him or her to do so? Was it nurture or nature? Lets say it was nurture, then maybe the society or the parents had some influence on them. If its nature, he was born to worry about free will. Thus, considering nurture again, what nurtured the parents or the society to influence him? Why did they question it, act in a certain way, or speak out? Did they also do it that way because it was all determined? Or is it a combination of nurture and nature both? Were they all determined to have this combination?

One would think if we have nurture and nature both in a particular event, can we have conflict in our minds prior to this event and the outcome of that conflict will decide what the event is or its outcome?

Compatibilists, which a school of thought say that this nature and nurture will give weight to both sides of the scale in our decision making process, and the heavier sides will tip the scale. So in this case prior to an event a human being will have multiple decisions to make, and that will have a causal chain which will also depend on decisions made with each link in that causal chain.

Now this is a purely naturalistic, philosophical argument for compatibilism.

Consider it carefully and apply that to your theistic model of God, free-will, and knowledge.

Peace.
 
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