What church is the true church?

[KidatHeart]

the scripture says they were 'bought' from among mankind


it doesnt say they were different....just that God had chosen them from among mankind. It certainly doesnt say they were angels.

You're right. It doesn't say they were angels. But I think it does say they are made different from mankind in their being "bought" or "redeemed".

But, I think it becomes about the "among". In the New King James version, the "among" is italicized, meaning it has been put there for clarification of the original text.. It might be possible to interpret the original differently.

 

[KidatHeart]

If people can pick and choose what is and is not scripture then it would make it difficult is define what exactly is the true church. It would also make the term Christian vague. Even if all people were in agreement with what scripture is considered authentic, the problem of interrupting such scripture now comes into play.

That's one of my problems with organized religion. There are so many variables.

But eventually, isn't there supposed to be no church or temple (Revelations 21:22)?

 

[no-body]

the true church would be those who are members of the 144,000

I don't see anything that indicates the 144,000 are all part of the same group or that it has anything to do with a "true church" the 144,000 need not even all have died in the same eras the way it is written.

 

[Pegg]

What Bible is this?

the holy bible, which is made up of the following canonized writings:

Inspired Hebrew scriptures (OT)
 1 Genesis
 2 Exodus
 3 Leviticus
 4 Numbers
 5 Deuteronomy
 6 Joshua
 7 Judges
 8 Ruth
 9 1 Samuel
10 2 Samuel
11 1 Kings
12 2 Kings
13 1 Chronicles
14 2 Chronicles
15 Ezra
16 Nehemiah
17 Esther
18 Job
19 Psalms
20 Proverbs
21 Ecclesiastes
22 The Song of Solomon
23 Isaiah
24 Jeremiah
25 Lamentations
26 Ezekiel
27 Daniel
28 Hosea
29 Joel
30 Amos
31 Obadiah
32 Jonah
33 Micah
34 Nahum
35 Habakkuk
36 Zephaniah
37 Haggai
38 Zechariah
39 Malachi

Inspired Greek Scriptures (NT)
40 Matthew
41 Mark
42 Luke
43 John
44 Acts
45 Romans
46 1 Corinthians
47 2 Corinthians
48 Galatians
49 Ephesians
50 Philippians
51 Colossians
52 1 Thessalonians
53 2 Thessalonians
54 1 Timothy
55 2 Timothy
56 Titus
57 Philemon
58 Hebrews
59 James
60 1 Peter
61 2 Peter
62 1 John
63 2 John
64 3 John
65 Jude
66 Revelation


anything besides these writings is known as 'apocryphal' ... the collection of writings not written by Gods appointed prophets or servants.

 

[no-body]

the holy bible, which is made up of the following canonized writings:

Inspired Hebrew scriptures (OT)
 1 Genesis
 2 Exodus
 3 Leviticus
 4 Numbers
 5 Deuteronomy
 6 Joshua
 7 Judges
 8 Ruth
 9 1 Samuel
10 2 Samuel
11 1 Kings
12 2 Kings
13 1 Chronicles
14 2 Chronicles
15 Ezra
16 Nehemiah
17 Esther
18 Job
19 Psalms
20 Proverbs
21 Ecclesiastes
22 The Song of Solomon
23 Isaiah
24 Jeremiah
25 Lamentations
26 Ezekiel
27 Daniel
28 Hosea
29 Joel
30 Amos
31 Obadiah
32 Jonah
33 Micah
34 Nahum
35 Habakkuk
36 Zephaniah
37 Haggai
38 Zechariah
39 Malachi

Inspired Greek Scriptures (NT)
40 Matthew
41 Mark
42 Luke
43 John
44 Acts
45 Romans
46 1 Corinthians
47 2 Corinthians
48 Galatians
49 Ephesians
50 Philippians
51 Colossians
52 1 Thessalonians
53 2 Thessalonians
54 1 Timothy
55 2 Timothy
56 Titus
57 Philemon
58 Hebrews
59 James
60 1 Peter
61 2 Peter
62 1 John
63 2 John
64 3 John
65 Jude
66 Revelation


anything besides these writings is known as 'apocryphal' ... the collection of writings not written by Gods appointed prophets or servants.

Who decided?

 

[roger1440]

there is only one bible... there are just many ways of interpreting it.

If the true church must believe in specific scripture then it stands to reason that the true church must also believe in the authority of those who compiled these scriptures. In other words the true church must have faith in the guys who decided what books are in the New Testament and what books are out. The Bible didn’t fall out of the sky into mankind’s lap. How can we trust that these men made the right decision. The book of Revelation barely made it in. Nearly a thousand years later at first Martian Luther wanted to leave it out.

 

[InChrist]

the true church would be those who are members of the 144,000

Scripture interprets scripture and the scriptures clearly show who the 144.000 are and they are not the church, they are Jews, specifically 12.000 from each tribe listed.



And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. Rev. 7:4-8

 

[ChristineES]

There are nearly ten thousand flavors of Christianity today. When we add to the mix the churches that did not survive to the present date, the number of churches are even higher. What criteria should a person use to determine the true church? I define the “true church” as a church that teaches an accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. If you know of such a church, please explain in detail why that church is the true church.

A building, a denomination, etc are not what the "Church" truly is- it is the body of Christians. Not everyone who calls himself or herself a Christian is one- I am not the one to judge who is or who isn't true Christian (outside of some really hateful types, like the WBC- I won't get into that- they are a very small organization).

 

[roger1440]

A building, a denomination, etc are not what the "Church" truly is- it is the body of Christians. Not everyone who calls himself or herself a Christian is one- I am not the one to judge who is or who isn't true Christian (outside of some really hateful types, like the WBC- I won't get into that- they are a very small organization).

Is the Westboro Baptist Church worst then the Crusades or the Inquisitions? The Catholics and Protestants have killed many more people then the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[ChristineES]

Is the Westboro Baptist Church worst then the Crusades or the Inquisitions? The Catholics and Protestants have killed many more people then the Westboro Baptist Church.

I am talking about the present, not the past. Unfortunately, I am unable to go back in time and do anything about them. Talking about the past is only to keep things like you mentioned from happening again. We can't change it- it has already happened.

 

[Shiranui117]

There are nearly ten thousand flavors of Christianity today. When we add to the mix the churches that did not survive to the present date, the number of churches are even higher. What criteria should a person use to determine the true church? I define the “true church” as a church that teaches an accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. If you know of such a church, please explain in detail why that church is the true church.

The true church should be able to visibly trace its teachings and lineage back to the Apostles of Christ and the students/descendants of the Apostles. Its faith and teaching must be the same as when Christianity first started.

Naturally, everyone and their mother will claim their own denomination to be the original church. However, if they're a Protestant, many of their distinguishing beliefs (such as the 5 Solas, Calvin's 5 Points, etc) originated in the 1500's--well after the Apostles. So we're forced to conclude that none of the Protestant denominations are the original church, but derivatives of it. Roman Catholicism has likewise changed drastically over the past millennium, and many beliefs that were once denied vehemently by Catholics are now taken to be cornerstones of the Catholic Faith--namely, Papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception.

So that gets rid of thousands and thousands of Christian denominations right there that can claim to being the true church. Now your two options are this: To believe that the WHOLE ENTIRE Church fell away some time after the death of the Apostles, or even while the Apostles were still living, therefore meaning that Jesus' disciples failed to continue on their message. And then we had to wait for over a thousand years for Jesus to decide to restore Christianity. Such groups making these claims are the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons.

The other option is to look outside the typical realm of Western Christianity so familiar to us, and see if pure, untarnished Christianity survived in the homeland--in Greece, Palestine, Syria and Asia Minor, among the Christians of Jerusalem, Caesarea, Antioch, Ephesus, Colossus, Corinth, Myra, and other areas in the Bible where the first Christian churches were.

If you look there, you will find a form of Christianity called "Orthodox Christianity". Orthodox Christianity consists of two communions of churches that are kept apart by historical awkwardness and some misunderstanding: The Eastern Orthodox (found mostly in Egypt, the Middle East, Greece, the Balkan Peninsula, Eastern Europe and Russia, and is gaining ground in the Western world) and the Oriental Orthodox (found in Egypt, Ethiopia, Syria, Armenia and India). Both recognize each other as truly Orthodox and Apostolic (extremists notwithstanding) and there has been great progress towards the ultimate goal of fully reuniting both Churches.

Both Orthodox Churches show remarkable adherence to the Faith of the Apostles, and they take great care to keep the faith unchanged. And it shows in their history and writings. If you were to ask me, I would say that the Orthodox Church (both Eastern and Oriental together) is the true Church

the holy bible, which is made up of the following canonized writings:

Inspired Hebrew scriptures (OT)
 1 Genesis
 2 Exodus
 3 Leviticus
 4 Numbers
 5 Deuteronomy
 6 Joshua
 7 Judges
 8 Ruth
 9 1 Samuel
10 2 Samuel
11 1 Kings
12 2 Kings
13 1 Chronicles
14 2 Chronicles
15 Ezra
16 Nehemiah
17 Esther
18 Job
19 Psalms
20 Proverbs
21 Ecclesiastes
22 The Song of Solomon
23 Isaiah
24 Jeremiah
25 Lamentations
26 Ezekiel
27 Daniel
28 Hosea
29 Joel
30 Amos
31 Obadiah
32 Jonah
33 Micah
34 Nahum
35 Habakkuk
36 Zephaniah
37 Haggai
38 Zechariah
39 Malachi

anything besides these writings is known as 'apocryphal' ... the collection of writings not written by Gods appointed prophets or servants.

Can you explain why Jesus and the Apostles and the biblical authors used the Septuagint, which has more books than what your OT lists?

 

[ChristineES]

To add to my last post, I wish people would quit adding what I didn't say. I never said or insinuated that the crusades of the past were better than the WBC. I am not angry, but I get frustrated when people insinuate I am saying something I did not say.

 

[roger1440]

I am talking about the present, not the past. Unfortunately, I am unable to go back in time and do anything about them. Talking about the past is only to keep things like you mentioned from happening again. We can't change it- it has already happened.

In the present United States most states will not allow gay marriage. This is today at this very moment as my heart beats in my chest. Sodomy is outlawed in same states TODAY. Granted, it is not a church that makes these decisions, but the church does have an influence. Law makers not only make laws they also echo societies view on what is right or wrong.

 

[InChrist]

its true to say that the 'true church' consists of members who are 'born again'.... these born again christians will enter heaven to rule with Christ....

but what about those who are not born-again? Jesus spoke of his born again disciples as a 'little flock' “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”—Luke 12:32.... yet he also spoke of 'other sheep' “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.”—John 10:16.

I see the scriptures saying something other than the Watchtower interpretation to these verses. I believe Jesus is telling the disciples, His little flock of Jewish followers, that He has other sheep to bring into the fold meaning...Gentiles, non-Jews.

These other sheep have been promised an 'earthly' inheritence according to Matthew 5:5 “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth,”

[FONT=&quot]Jesus was speaking at that time to the people of the Israel because He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). The promise of God through the OT prophets for Israel was a restored Kingdom to be established on the earth with Messiah ruling from the throne of David in Jerusalem.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

It stands to reason that if there are born-again christians who have been promised a position in heaven to rule over mankind....then these other christians who inherit the earth for their eternal salvation must also be members of the 'true church' .... it would make no sense to take all mankind to heaven to rule over an empty earth.

[/quote]

So I really don’t see Jesus’ words referring directly about the church at all and the kingdom being spoken of is the promised kingdom foretold by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel , Zechariah and others.

 

[Shermana]

There are nearly ten thousand flavors of Christianity today. When we add to the mix the churches that did not survive to the present date, the number of churches are even higher. What criteria should a person use to determine the true church? I define the “true church” as a church that teaches an accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. If you know of such a church, please explain in detail why that church is the true church.

Nazarene Judaism, aka the Jerusalem and Antioch Church under James and Peter's authority before Paul entered the picture. It's not an organized movement anymore but the idea is not dead.

See the Clementine Literature (Not the "Epistles of Clement") for more information.

As Shiranui says:

The true church should be able to visibly trace its teachings and lineage back to the Apostles of Christ and the students/descendants of the Apostles. Its faith and teaching must be the same as when Christianity first started.

And that would be the Jewish Torah obedient Sect under James and Peter. Anything that preaches that the Mosaic Law is "done away with" or not binding is NOT what Christianity was when it "First started" and is based on passages that are considered highly dubious by many non-church-aligned scholars, especially the notorious (and highly enlightened) Tubingen school.

To deny that the original Church was Torah obedient and works-based is to deny basic history.

As Inchrist says:

[FONT="]Jesus was speaking at that time to the people of the Israel because He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). The promise of God through the OT prophets for Israel was a restored Kingdom to be established on the earth with Messiah ruling from the throne of David in Jerusalem.[/FONT][FONT="]

And that's ALL who Jesus spoke to. If he said anything about making disciples from all nations, it was to make them in the same exact way as any Israelite believer, who he ONLY came for. So thus Paul may go right out the window as a false prophet that he warned about.
[/FONT]

 

[ChristineES]

In the present United States most states will not allow gay marriage. This is today at this very moment as my heart beats in my chest. Sodomy is outlawed in same states TODAY. Granted, it is not a church that makes these decisions, but the church does have an influence. Law makers not only make laws they also echo societies view on what is right or wrong.

The world isn't ideal, it never has been. We have to worry about our walk with God- we can't change the world, only our little part of it. We can't feed all the hungry people in the world, but we can probably feed a few in our area, we can fight injustice, but we can't go to Washington to change the laws- we can write our congressmen, governor, etc. And everything influences everything else. I am not saying we should be apathetic, what we should do is to try and make things better for ourselves and our friends, family, neighbors, and peers- by educating, living by example, and so on. If each person would do this, the world would be a much better place- but, as I said, the world is not ideal.

And about Gay marriage and heart beating and all that, the former is a ongoing discussion but a whole other topic than this- as are other laws. The latter doesn't make any sense to me at all on how it pertains to this discussion.

 

[Desert Snake]

The world isn't ideal, it never has been. We have to worry about our walk with God- we can't change the world, only our little part of it. We can't feed all the hungry people in the world, but we can probably feed a few in our area, we can fight injustice, but we can't go to Washington to change the laws- we can write our congressmen, governor, etc. And everything influences everything else. I am not saying we should be apathetic, what we should do is to try and make things better for ourselves and our friends, family, neighbors, and peers- by educating, living by example, and so on. If each person would do this, the world would be a much better place- but, as I said, the world is not ideal.

And about Gay marriage and heart beating and all that, the former is a ongoing discussion but a whole other topic than this- as are other laws. The latter doesn't make any sense to me at all on how it pertains to this discussion.

None of this pertains to the topic.

 

[Pegg]

Both Orthodox Churches show remarkable adherence to the Faith of the Apostles, and they take great care to keep the faith unchanged. And it shows in their history and writings. If you were to ask me, I would say that the Orthodox Church (both Eastern and Oriental together) is the true Church

except for infant baptism, trinity, hellfire, mary's sainthood as the mother of God, Jesus as God, clergy/laity class, use of idols, adherence to apochryphal writings, building up of wealth, paying priestly wages...running the church like a business etc etc etc

calling yourself 'orthodox' does not actually mean you ARE orthodox.

Can you explain why Jesus and the Apostles and the biblical authors used the Septuagint, which has more books than what your OT lists?

Never do you read of Jesus or any NT writer quote from any of the apocryphal writings, but they do use plenty of quotes from the hebrew canonical writings.

 

[Desert Snake]

except for infant baptism, trinity, hellfire, mary's sainthood as the mother of God, Jesus as God, clergy/laity class, use of idols, adherence to apochryphal writings, building up of wealth, paying priestly wages...running the church like a business etc etc etc

calling yourself 'orthodox' does not actually mean you ARE orthodox.




Never do you read of Jesus or any NT writer quote from any of the apocryphal writings, but they do use plenty of quotes from the hebrew canonical writings.

I have to disagree with your arguments here, just because it is different from your beliefs doesn't mean that you can list off a bunch of "reasons" why it's a bad denomination without explaining the concepts you are presenting.

 

[Pegg]

I have to disagree with your arguments here, just because it is different from your beliefs doesn't mean that you can list off a bunch of "reasons" why it's a bad denomination without explaining the concepts you are presenting.

it is being claimed that the orthodox religions are closest thing we have to the teaching of the apostles... and that they are the direct successors to the apostles

yet when you compare the written NT to the creeds of the orthodox religions, you would have to admit that they are NOT the same.

they are nothing like teachings of the apostles that we find in the NT.