What church is the true church?

[Desert Snake]

regardless of age, it is forbidden for a christian to charge a fee for the service of baptism...or any other form of service

“YOU received free, give free.” Matthew 10:8

“May your silver perish with you, because you thought through money to get possession of the free gift of God.” Acts 8:18-20

christianity was never for sale by the apostles

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, and frankly not even relevant. How many churches expect people to tithe?

 

[savagewind]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, and frankly not even relevant. How many churches expect people to tithe?

Ministers charge a small fee for services. It has nothing to do with tithing.

 

[roger1440]

apocrypha are not from God ....their teachings contradict Gods Word

The early christians did not accept these as legitimate.... they were not written by the apostles but by gnostics

The criteria used by the early church didn't use apostle authorship for inclusion into the New Testament. The author of the Gospel of Mark was not a apostle. The author of the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts was not a apostle. The author of Jude was not a apostle. Want me go on? LOL.

 

[Pegg]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, and frankly not even relevant. How many churches expect people to tithe?

the apostles didnt collect a tithe from christians... so if a church does so, they cannot claim to be following the example of the apostles

they are not practicing 'orthodox' christianity because to be 'orthodox' really means to be "right", "true", "straight" in "opinion" or "belief"

Was the apostles or Jesus opinion that tithes should be collected? Or that fees should be charged for membership or services such as baptism?

 

[Pegg]

The criteria used by the early church didn't use apostle authorship for inclusion into the New Testament. The author of the Gospel of Mark was not a apostle. The author of the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts was not a apostle. The author of Jude was not a apostle. Want me go on? LOL.

those writings were written during the apostles time, and the apostles used and authorised their use...they could confirm that what was written was a true account.

Thats why the early church kept catalogues of the apostle approved writings.

by the end of the first century, only the apostle John was alive...after he died, the cannon was officially closed because there were no longer any apostles alive who could substantiate what was being written. and everything written up to the end of the 1st century was all that was needed.

the gospels of judas and thomas were apparently written after the 2nd century and therefore no one with authority could substantiate what was written in them... but by examining them you can clearly see they do not promote biblical truths or truths already written about Jesus. They are full of contradictory events and ideas.

 

[Shermana]

those writings were written during the apostles time, and the apostles used and authorised their use...they could confirm that what was written was a true account.

Thats why the early church kept catalogues of the apostle approved writings.

by the end of the first century, only the apostle John was alive...after he died, the cannon was officially closed because there were no longer any apostles alive who could substantiate what was being written. and everything written up to the end of the 1st century was all that was needed.

the gospels of judas and thomas were apparently written after the 2nd century and therefore no one with authority could substantiate what was written in them... but by examining them you can clearly see they do not promote biblical truths or truths already written about Jesus. They are full of contradictory events and ideas.

How do we know the Gospel of Thomas was written after the 2nd century exactly? How do we know the Ethiopian Church's catalogue is wrong? Why not the Muratorian which includes the Gospel of Peter like how Clement went by?

Scholars generally fall into one of two main camps: an "early camp" favoring a date for the "core" of between the years 50 and 100, before or approximately contemporary with the composition of the canonical gospels and a "late camp" favoring a date in the 2nd century, after composition of the canonical gospels. The vast majority of mainstream scholars fall in to the "late" camp[32][33]

Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With that said, apparently Clement had no problem with the Apocalypse and Gospel of Peter, so the early Christians had some varying views on the datings back then as well.

With that said, there's much evidence if not nearly unanimous scholarly consensus that the Pastoral epistles were written well after Paul died, yet I imagine you have no problem with those.

Now who officially closed the canon exactly, and when was it decided that it was closed?

but by examining them you can clearly see they do not promote biblical truths or truths already written about Jesus. They are full of contradictory events and ideas.

Like?

 

[roger1440]

Now who officially closed the canon exactly, and when was it decided that it was closed?

I love that question. I have a better one. Who has or had the authority to close the cannon?

 

[Pegg]

Like?

the Gospel of Thomas ascribes to Jesus things such as saying that he would transform Mary into a male to make it possible for her to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. The scriptures say that there is 'neither male nor female' in heaven.
It also describes young Jesus as a mean-spirited child who deliberately caused another child’s death.
The Gospel of Judas depicts Judas as the good guy who was ask by Jesus to betray him. The gospel accounts show Jesus to have said "woe to the person through whom the son of man is betrayed"

these are contradictions....not complements to the stories.

 

[Pegg]

I love that question. I have a better one. Who has or had the authority to close the cannon?

if Jesus gave authority to 12 apostles, it stands to reason that once they were all gone, no one would have such authority. Jesus never spoke about a succession after each apostle.

So who decided that? obviously someone who had no authority to do so.

 

[McBell]

if Jesus gave authority to 12 apostles, it stands to reason that once they were all gone, no one would have such authority. Jesus never spoke about a succession after each apostle.

So who decided that? obviously someone who had no authority to do so.

Ah, so Jesus had the authority but God himself did not?

 

[Pegg]

Ah, so Jesus had the authority but God himself did not?

if it was purposed for a succession to take place, the scriptures would have stated so. Amos 3:7“The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.”

nothing about succession has been disclosed in the scriptures so there is no foundation for it... it is nothing more then a man-made tradition...the sort of tradition Christ condemned the religious leaders in his day for creating.

 

[Shermana]

the Gospel of Thomas ascribes to Jesus things such as saying that he would transform Mary into a male to make it possible for her to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. The scriptures say that there is 'neither male nor female' in heaven.

This is a very complicated passage that is deserving of its own thread on what it means exactly, it may not be as literal as you think.

http://www.cas.uio.no/Publications/Seminar/Complexity_Marjanen.pdf

It also describes young Jesus as a mean-spirited child who deliberately caused another child’s death.

You're confusing the Gospel of Thomas with the INFANCY Gospel of Thomas.

On a side note, the GoT may be filled with interpolations just like all the others.

The Gospel of Judas depicts Judas as the good guy who was ask by Jesus to betray him. The gospel accounts show Jesus to have said "woe to the person through whom the son of man is betrayed"

I don't think the Gospel of Judas is particularly authentic.

these are contradictions....not complements to the stories.

Can you think of any others?

 

[Pegg]

Can you think of any others?

The apocryphal book of 'Acts of Paul' and 'Acts of Peter' emphasize complete abstinence from sexual relations and even depict the apostles as urging women to separate from their husbands.

what do the scriptures state?
Paul wrote:
1Cor 7: 3 Let the husband render to [his] wife her due; but let the wife also do likewise to [her] husband. 4 The wife does not exercise authority over her own body, but her husband does; likewise, also, the husband does not exercise authority over his own body, but his wife does. 5 Do not be depriving each other [of it]...
Peter himself was a married man. The gospels say he had a mother-in-law. And he wrote:
1 Peter 3:7 “Continue dwelling in like manner with [your wives] according to knowledge, assigning them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since you are also heirs with them of the undeserved favor of life, in order for your prayers not to be hindered.”

 

[roger1440]

the Gospel of Thomas ascribes to Jesus things such as saying that he would transform Mary into a male to make it possible for her to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. The scriptures say that there is 'neither male nor female' in heaven.
It also describes young Jesus as a mean-spirited child who deliberately caused another child’s death.
The Gospel of Judas depicts Judas as the good guy who was ask by Jesus to betray him. The gospel accounts show Jesus to have said "woe to the person through whom the son of man is betrayed"

these are contradictions....not complements to the stories.

Granted it is sexist, but it's not to be taken literately. To put it another way. A Christian does not need a certain type of genitals to enter heaven.

 

[Desert Snake]

the apostles didnt collect a tithe from christians... so if a church does so, they cannot claim to be following the example of the apostles

they are not practicing 'orthodox' christianity because to be 'orthodox' really means to be "right", "true", "straight" in "opinion" or "belief"

Was the apostles or Jesus opinion that tithes should be collected? Or that fees should be charged for membership or services such as baptism?

This is a ridiculous argument, the Apostles were not running large Churches either that needed funds.

 

[Pegg]

This is a very complicated passage that is deserving of its own thread on what it means exactly, it may not be as literal as you think.

http://www.cas.uio.no/Publications/Seminar/Complexity_Marjanen.pdf

i am feeling a trickling of smoke from my ears ... you aren't really taking what this person says seriously??

can anyone really take this garbage seriously?

He's saying in one part
"Becoming male: means of protection and demonstration of decency"

Do you really think that the only way a women can be 'decent' is to become a man?? Women will enter heaven if they become men because men are decent????




i think i need a break!

 

[Pegg]

Granted it is sexist, but it's not to be taken literately. To put it another way. A Christian does not need a certain type of genitals to enter heaven.

it wreaks of the false teachers that the NT writers warned of

Jesus wasnt' a sexist.... in fact he was harder on the bad attitudes of the men in his day then he was of women prostitutes.

But these sorts of writings bring all those bad attitudes towards women to the fore...thats how i know it is not a part of Gods word. Its suitable only for the trashbin.

 

[Pegg]

This is a ridiculous argument, the Apostles were not running large Churches either that needed funds.

no, because thats not how they organized themselves. Christian congregations were meeting in local homes...they did not separate themselves into clergy/laity classes....they were all one body. The older men of the congregations were overseers...they all contributed to the spiriutal teaching in the congregation.

It wasnt until a couple of centuries later that some rose up above others and began to take charge and assert their dominance over the congregations. This led to the situation we have today where priests and bishops rule the flock of God.

this action is in violation of Christs command
“The rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This is not the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister.”—Matthew 20:25, 26.

If we are going to follow Christ, then why is there a pope sitting on a throne?

 

[roger1440]

it wreaks of the false teachers that the NT writers warned of

Jesus wasnt' a sexist.... in fact he was harder on the bad attitudes of the men in his day then he was of women prostitutes.

But these sorts of writings bring all those bad attitudes towards women to the fore...thats how i know it is not a part of Gods word. Its suitable only for the trashbin.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 1 Timothy 2:12

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34

Are these verses any better?

 

[Desert Snake]

no, because thats not how they organized themselves. Christian congregations were meeting in local homes...they did not separate themselves into clergy/laity classes....they were all one body. The older men of the congregations were overseers...they all contributed to the spiriutal teaching in the congregation.

It wasnt until a couple of centuries later that some rose up above others and began to take charge and assert their dominance over the congregations. This led to the situation we have today where priests and bishops rule the flock of God.

this action is in violation of Christs command
“The rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This is not the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister.”—Matthew 20:25, 26.

If we are going to follow Christ, then why is there a pope sitting on a throne?

Now you want me to argue about the Pope? What does that have anything to do with my comments?