What comes next when you lose faith in democracy

[1137]

Trump is bad enough, but my state and city made nothing but terrible, uneducated decisions. I've always had a problem with things like juries: uneducated and easily manipulated individuals choosing a man's future. This is ten times worse. I have absolutely zero faith on a system that just lets every uneducated, bigoted, manipulated idiot be involved in such big decisions. The problem is I've never considered an alternative. I respect individuality and freedom, I'm no fascist or totalitarian. Is there a path away from democracy that doesn't run the risk of becoming a monster?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Trump is bad enough, but my state and city made nothing but terrible, uneducated decisions. I've always had a problem with things like juries: uneducated and easily manipulated individuals choosing a man's future. This is ten times worse. I have absolutely zero faith on a system that just lets every uneducated, bigoted, manipulated idiot be involved in such big decisions. The problem is I've never considered an alternative. I respect individuality and freedom, I'm no fascist or totalitarian. Is there a path away from democracy that doesn't run the risk of becoming a monster?

Excellent question. An absolutely relevant and important one, too.

I'm waiting to see the different perspectives about this here.

 

[Sunstone]

Didn't Churchill say something along the lines of "Democracy is the worst system of government except for every other system that's been tried"?

I wouldn't be so quick to lose faith in democracy. But I might take a closer look at such things as our educational system, and our laws governing the media -- which allows them to lie to us with impunity. You can't have a democracy with a poorly educated, poorly informed public.

 

[illykitty]

You try to educate people but one major problem is that there's so much noise everywhere, how does one present the education among all that misinformation? It's a very hard task.

I'm at a loss as well.

 

[1137]

Didn't Churchill say something along the lines of "Democracy is the worst system of government except for every other system that's been tried"?

I wouldn't be so quick to lose faith in democracy. But I might take a closer look at such things as our educational system, and our laws governing the media -- which allows them to lie to us with impunity. You can't have a democracy with a poorly educated, poorly informed public.

I think this is key. Right now it's the short sighted anger, but even my OP touches on problems such as education. Of course now we're probably in serious trouble there as well.

 

[Father Heathen]

The problem is simply an electorate that's largely ignorant, uninformed/misinformed, complacent, insular, etc.

 

[Sunstone]

I think this is key. Right now it's the short sighted anger, but even my OP touches on problems such as education. Of course now we're probably in serious trouble there as well.

Education in this country has, in my opinion, been too narrowly focused on producing people ready for jobs, and not enough focused on producing people ready to be good citizens. Civics, for example, is almost untaught these days at the high school level.

But beyond education, there's a need to get big money out of politics, and a need to reform the media. One thing that might go far towards reforming the media is changing the rules so that the broadcast media is required to provide an hours worth of news each night unsupported by advertising. Right now, the broadcast media is required to provide an hours worth of news, but is allowed to earn advertising revenue on it. That means the news is driven by ratings more than by what's actually newsworthy. And hence, it has devolved into entertainment.

 

[Tumah]

I've been noticing a lot of this. I have to wonder what it is that seems to make so many people here believe that they are smarter/more informed than over half the voters in the US. Yes the majority of voters didn't agree with your position. Does that mean democracy has failed because stupid and uninformed people won? If Trump is the most narcissistic person in politics, than I think the people here who believe their opinion to be the only wise and informed opinion to make, take a close second.

I understand that many democrats are upset at the loss after having had 8 years of presidency in their favor. But don't begrudge your fellow voter the respect of a thinking human being.

 

[Sunstone]

I have to wonder what it is that seems to make so many people here believe that they are smarter/more informed than over half the voters in the US.

Aren't you committing something akin to a bandwagon fallacy, Tumah? Whether an action is wise or foolish does not rest on its popularity.

 

[Tumah]

Aren't you committing something akin to a bandwagon fallacy, Tumah? Whether an action is wise or foolish does not rest on its popularity.

I don't think so. I'm not saying anything about the candidate's capability to lead. I'm speaking about libeling others because they don't agree with your opinion/preferences/priorities.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I've been noticing a lot of this. I have to wonder what it is that seems to make so many people here believe that they are smarter/more informed than over half the voters in the US. Yes the majority of voters didn't agree with your position. Does that mean democracy has failed because stupid and uninformed people won? If Trump is the most narcissistic person in politics, than I think the people here who believe their opinion to be the only wise and informed opinion to make, take a close second.

I understand that many democrats are upset at the loss after having had 8 years of presidency in their favor. But don't begrudge your fellow voter the respect of a thinking human being.

The thing is that it's not just about the majority not agreeing with a certain position per se; it's that they disagreed with said position largely based on ignorance and bigotry. It doesn't matter if the majority disagree or not; what matters is whether their position is correct. Their numbers don't necessarily reflect whether their position is sound.

As for the second point, respecting a person doesn't have to entail respecting their opinion or considering it correct. An opinion that supports a racist, sexist bigot is certainly not equal to one that supports tolerance and equality, for example.

 

[Sunstone]

By the way folks, as of about ten minutes ago, Clinton had a very narrow lead in the popular vote. It could still go either way, but let's not forget that the popular vote has not been fully counted yet.

As of early Wednesday morning, Clinton had 58,909,774 total votes compared to Trump’s 58,864,233, according to CBS News and CNN. The tallies will continue to change but Clinton holds a 47.6 percent lead compared to Trump’s 47.5 percent.

[Source]

Who knows? Maybe democracy isn't the problem -- maybe the problem is the electoral college.

 

[Revoltingest]

Trump is bad enough, but my state and city made nothing but terrible, uneducated decisions. I've always had a problem with things like juries: uneducated and easily manipulated individuals choosing a man's future. This is ten times worse. I have absolutely zero faith on a system that just lets every uneducated, bigoted, manipulated idiot be involved in such big decisions. The problem is I've never considered an alternative. I respect individuality and freedom, I'm no fascist or totalitarian. Is there a path away from democracy that doesn't run the risk of becoming a monster?

I gave up faith in democracy so long ago that I'm not even sure I ever had it.
Thus, I avoid big disappointment in the wrong candidates winning every election.
We've survived elections before.....even Nixon.

At least we Libertarians had a historically good showing....3%!
I'd hoped for more in an election designed for 3rd parties.

 

[Augustus]

I find the concept of sortition quite interesting.

This involves randomly selecting MPs/congress/equivalent instead of holding elections. This ensures representatives are indeed representative of the entire population and removes the horse race nonsense, careerist politicians and entrenched political elites.

You get a wide range of views of everyday people in governemnt a wide range of skills and experiences.

Was going to make a thread about it a while ago but got half way through and it got wiped. Never got round to redoing it.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't think so. I'm not saying anything about the candidate's capability to lead. I'm speaking about libeling others because they don't agree with your opinion/preferences/priorities.

No one is criticizing others on the grounds they don't agree with one's own "opinions/preferences/priorities". That's just spin. The criticism is that many people voted foolishly. There's a difference.

 

[1137]

I've been noticing a lot of this. I have to wonder what it is that seems to make so many people here believe that they are smarter/more informed than over half the voters in the US. Yes the majority of voters didn't agree with your position. Does that mean democracy has failed because stupid and uninformed people won? If Trump is the most narcissistic person in politics, than I think the people here who believe their opinion to be the only wise and informed opinion to make, take a close second.

I understand that many democrats are upset at the loss after having had 8 years of presidency in their favor. But don't begrudge your fellow voter the respect of a thinking human being.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention to the nature of the candidates.

 

[1137]

By the way folks, as of about ten minutes ago, Clinton had a very narrow lead in the popular vote. It could still go either way, but let's not forget that the popular vote has not been fully counted yet.

[Source]

Who knows? Maybe democracy isn't the problem -- maybe the problem is the electoral college.

For me my concern still stands, because it should not have even been close.

 

[Sunstone]

For me my concern still stands, because it should not have even been close.

Granted.

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe we should cap the amount of money that can be spent on campaigns? If there were a way to do it, that might have at least two effects: First, it would make it harder for the uber rich and the large corporations to buy candidates and elections. Second, it would mean that our elected representatives didn't have to spend six hours of each day they're in office begging for money for their next campaign.

 

[illykitty]

I wonder if things would have been different if Bernie Sanders had been the Democratic choice instead of Hilary.