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What comes next when you lose faith in democracy

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
may be people should have to qualify to have a vote
Say tests for Knowledge of basic economics and social justice, ability to reason using logic. and their ability to detect when they are being misinformed. questions should be difficult and searching enough to disbar 50% of the population. What would not be tested for, is political opinion or pure facts.

It is their ability to make rational choices that is important.
no one would be disbarred from taking the test at any age.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I understand a lot of people are disappointed right now but this kind of thinking is madness.
This whole campaign and election was madness. Realistically, only a very slim minority of Americans wanted to see either candidate on the ballot. America didn't want either one, but America wasn't given a choice. Of course such things would be going on even if Hillary won, and it would have been the same point that America didn't want her on the ballot either. Their hardcore supporters were the only ones cheering when they won the primaries, and only picking up the support of others who begrudgingly offered it. It's madness because one of the candidates is scared either from fear or over reasons that essentially boil down to the fact she's a politician and being singled out for things that apply to politicians in general, and the other candidate has a long and documented history of racism, being sued, sexual predation, stiffing investors and contractors with the bills while pocketing the profits, and for having incredibly thin skin (his campaign left me very doubtful he handles much business himself because it's been demonstrated he is very easy to manipulate). And it's going to continue to be mad, and extremely dysfunctional, because now there is going to be a massive defensive over preserving the gains over the last eight years. Pence is a severe threat to LBGT rights, and both pose a severe threat to immigrants of multiple nationalities, ethnicities, and even religious ideologies.
If the Democrats can play their cards right, stay several moves ahead, and play the role of mega-huge sycophant to Trump, they can milk Trump for his Left-positions, balk the Republicans, and set themselves up for a storming victory in time for the census and redistricting when the voting demographs change, and then cement Liberal values as policy in eight years when the voting demographs undergo a major shift as Millennials become a major voting block and the iGen begins to vote. If they do this right, and actually do that action thing (which is something they don't do so well with), they can turn this into a much bigger victory in the long run than if Hillary won, which would not have provided for this chance for a sweeping victory as major voting demograph changes in the Democrats favor begin to manifest and come to fruition. If they do it right, they can manipulate Trump, manipulate Republicans in Congress to help them and set them up to be voted out, and portray themselves as champions of partisanship while also playing the role victim of those nasty Republicans who don't get along, especially if they can put Trump on a leash.
But, that is the best case scenario and since so many are running around like chickens with their head's cut off it seems doubtful they have accepted what happened and began pondering how to fix it. At this point, we don't need to wonder how it came to this, we don't have the time to cry and whine, but now is the time to plan, and there is very little time before plans must be set into motion.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
This whole campaign and election was madness. Realistically, only a very slim minority of Americans wanted to see either candidate on the ballot. America didn't want either one, but America wasn't given a choice. Of course such things would be going on even if Hillary won, and it would have been the same point that America didn't want her on the ballot either. Their hardcore supporters were the only ones cheering when they won the primaries, and only picking up the support of others who begrudgingly offered it. It's madness because one of the candidates is scared either from fear or over reasons that essentially boil down to the fact she's a politician and being singled out for things that apply to politicians in general, and the other candidate has a long and documented history of racism, being sued, sexual predation, stiffing investors and contractors with the bills while pocketing the profits, and for having incredibly thin skin (his campaign left me very doubtful he handles much business himself because it's been demonstrated he is very easy to manipulate). And it's going to continue to be mad, and extremely dysfunctional, because now there is going to be a massive defensive over preserving the gains over the last eight years. Pence is a severe threat to LBGT rights, and both pose a severe threat to immigrants of multiple nationalities, ethnicities, and even religious ideologies.
If the Democrats can play their cards right, stay several moves ahead, and play the role of mega-huge sycophant to Trump, they can milk Trump for his Left-positions, balk the Republicans, and set themselves up for a storming victory in time for the census and redistricting when the voting demographs change, and then cement Liberal values as policy in eight years when the voting demographs undergo a major shift as Millennials become a major voting block and the iGen begins to vote. If they do this right, and actually do that action thing (which is something they don't do so well with), they can turn this into a much bigger victory in the long run than if Hillary won, which would not have provided for this chance for a sweeping victory as major voting demograph changes in the Democrats favor begin to manifest and come to fruition. If they do it right, they can manipulate Trump, manipulate Republicans in Congress to help them and set them up to be voted out, and portray themselves as champions of partisanship while also playing the role victim of those nasty Republicans who don't get along, especially if they can put Trump on a leash.
But, that is the best case scenario and since so many are running around like chickens with their head's cut off it seems doubtful they have accepted what happened and began pondering how to fix it. At this point, we don't need to wonder how it came to this, we don't have the time to cry and whine, but now is the time to plan, and there is very little time before plans must be set into motion.
There isn't a lot I disagree with here.

My comment was in response to the anti-democratic sentiment in the air and in this thread. People really do have to calm down and plan out how they can respond by peaceful and legal means in the spirit of democracy. That said, I really hope the left in America doesn't back itself into the kind of corner where any cooperation between the movements is seen as betrayal or compromise. The people who wanted Bernie have a lot more in common with Trump's supporters than either side seem to believe including the desire for a less, um, pre-determined political system. They've just demonstrated that they can achieve their goals in the face of strong establishment opposition. Isn't that somewhat exciting and strangely reassuring about the health of American democracy?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
My comment was in response to the anti-democratic sentiment in the air and in this thread. People really do have to calm down and plan out how they can respond by peaceful and legal means in the spirit of democracy.
There is nothing Democratic about the candidate the people chose not winning the election. The most effective legal option is a Constitutional Amendment to dissolve the EC. That will not be an easy feat, and at the moment it is practically impossible now because the Republicans have now had two elections stolen and given to them within 20 years because of the EC.
Isn't that somewhat exciting and strangely reassuring about the health of American democracy?
Is it reassuring that two highly prejudiced and bigoted men were put into office by a group that attracted White Supremacists, a group that cheered as Trump mocked and ridiculed the family of a fallen soldier, and who believed the myriad of lies Trump told throughout the campaign? Is it a positive sign of the "health" of American democracy win the winner isn't even the won "we the people" chose (and twice now within a rather short time).
Actually, this election is a good example of why America was not set up as a democracy.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
People need to either stop griping about the American system of government and how it works or invite the queen to be our monarch again. So which one?
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Trump is bad enough, but my state and city made nothing but terrible, uneducated decisions. I've always had a problem with things like juries: uneducated and easily manipulated individuals choosing a man's future. This is ten times worse. I have absolutely zero faith on a system that just lets every uneducated, bigoted, manipulated idiot be involved in such big decisions. The problem is I've never considered an alternative. I respect individuality and freedom, I'm no fascist or totalitarian. Is there a path away from democracy that doesn't run the risk of becoming a monster?

If the country loses faith in Democracy a war to replace it will break out. Our country has not lost faith in Democracy. The protests are mostly non-violent and relatively small. The leadership is prepping for a peaceful transfer of power and in 4 years we will be able to vote again. The people of this county are not divided the majority all agree that Both candidates presented were not best for the country. What we have is the minority voters that could not see the negatives of their candidate revolting because the other candidate in their mind is the devil. We would have the same problems had either candidate won. The great thing is that democracy will still succeed and in four years we will do it all again. Hopefully both parties learn from this experience not to repeat it.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
If the country loses faith in Democracy a war to replace it will break out. Our country has not lost faith in Democracy. The protests are mostly non-violent and relatively small. The leadership is prepping for a peaceful transfer of power and in 4 years we will be able to vote again. The people of this county are not divided the majority all agree that Both candidates presented were not best for the country. What we have is the minority voters that could not see the negatives of their candidate revolting because the other candidate in their mind is the devil. We would have the same problems had either candidate won. The great thing is that democracy will still succeed and in four years we will do it all again. Hopefully both parties learn from this experience not to repeat it.

How will they ever learn when they repeat it over and over again in spite of the past consequences? They won't. It will happen again and again and again...
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
How will they ever learn when they repeat it over and over again in spite of the past consequences? They won't. It will happen again and again and again...

They want to win, both parties where hurt by the election. No election in my life was this bad, I am hoping it is the bottom of the pit and we can only go up. I could be wrong but we definitely are close to the bottom.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They want to win, both parties where hurt by the election. No election in my life was this bad, I am hoping it is the bottom of the pit and we can only go up. I could be wrong but we definitely are close to the bottom.
Au contraire!
The bottom is further down than this season's debacle.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...al-campaign-ever-not-even-close/#50c4c0483fea
My personal favorite.....
...... back in the earliest days of the nation, was often left to surrogates. One such surrogate was the influential President of Yale University, a John Adams supporter, who publically suggested that were Jefferson to become the president, “we would see our wives and daughters the victims of legal prostitution.”
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
There is nothing Democratic about the candidate the people chose not winning the election.
You have a strange electoral system but it's still a democratic process.

Shadow Wolf said:
Is it reassuring that two highly prejudiced and bigoted men were put into office by a group that attracted White Supremacists, a group that cheered as Trump mocked and ridiculed the family of a fallen soldier, and who believed the myriad of lies Trump told throughout the campaign? Is it a positive sign of the "health" of American democracy win the winner isn't even the won "we the people" chose (and twice now within a rather short time).
Of course not.
 

Perditus

へびつかい座
I don't put much credence in the popular vote.

Everyone knows damn well that thousands of illegals voted for Hillary.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Trump is bad enough, but my state and city made nothing but terrible, uneducated decisions. I've always had a problem with things like juries: uneducated and easily manipulated individuals choosing a man's future. This is ten times worse. I have absolutely zero faith on a system that just lets every uneducated, bigoted, manipulated idiot be involved in such big decisions. The problem is I've never considered an alternative. I respect individuality and freedom, I'm no fascist or totalitarian. Is there a path away from democracy that doesn't run the risk of becoming a monster?
It has been often assumed and taken for granted that whoever spends the most money in an election tends to win, whoever fires the most ads into the average voter's brain tends to win, whoever is the establishment pick tends to win.

I would dare say that it is in fact a show that democracy can still work, and the people can still think for themselves, that an outsider candidate who was vastly outspent and degraded by the media can still win, even if you may strongly disagree with his views and character.
 

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
They want to win, both parties where hurt by the election. No election in my life was this bad, I am hoping it is the bottom of the pit and we can only go up. I could be wrong but we definitely are close to the bottom.

Everybody in our gov't has totally lost the ability to compromise. It's pathetic.
 
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