What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[angellous_evangellous]

If you are being forced to do something upon penalty of death, all bets are off except for murdering someone, idolatry, and illicit sex.

If someone forces a Jew to carry stuff outside on Shabbat at gunpoint, preserving one's life is NOT a sin.

So... If Jesus was forced by the Romans to carry his cross on Shabbat under penalty of torture or immediate execution, he was not sinning by carrying the cross.

(I'm quick to point out where Jesus sinned. I'm equally quick to point out where he really didn't.)

But he's facilitating his own murder.

 

[BigRed]

If you are being forced to do something upon penalty of death, all bets are off except for murdering someone, idolatry, and illicit sex. It is more important to save a life than to worry about those other sins.

It is better to break one Shabbat so one can live to celebrate other Shabbatot properly.

But when one is under penalty of death or torture, the only three things which death would be better than doing (under Torah law) is murder, idolatry, and illicit sex. Otherwise, we are commanded to choose life.

If someone forces a Jew to carry stuff outside on Shabbat at gunpoint, preserving one's life is NOT a sin.

So... If Jesus was forced by the Romans to carry his cross on Shabbat under penalty of torture or immediate execution, he was not sinning by carrying the cross.

(I'm quick to point out where Jesus sinned. I'm equally quick to point out where he really didn't.)

I think that Jesus was a Sinner.
Was Jesus a Sinner?
Throughout History some have questioned if Jesus was a sinner or not????
John 2:14-15
And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Those that sold animals were providing a service to those who came a distance and needed an animal to sacrifice in the temple.
The money changers changed money for people who came to worship and pay the tithe and only had foreign money.
Their functions were legal and sanctioned by the levitical priests.

He drove the money changers out of the temple by beating them with a "scourge of cords." Assault and Battery.
He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Destruction of Property.

Was this behavior by Jesus a sin? I think so.

I have several other passages in mind where Jesus was a sinner.
I'm interested in what evidence that you have Harmonius.

BigRed [PM if you prefer]

 

[Harmonious]

I think that Jesus was a Sinner.
Was Jesus a Sinner?
Throughout History some have questioned if Jesus was a sinner or not????
John 2:14-15
And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Those that sold animals were providing a service to those who came a distance and needed an animal to sacrifice in the temple.
The money changers changed money for people who came to worship and pay the tithe and only had foreign money.
Their functions were legal and sanctioned by the levitical priests.

He drove the money changers out of the temple by beating them with a "scourge of cords." Assault and Battery.
He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Destruction of Property.

Was this behavior by Jesus a sin? I think so.

I have several other passages in mind where Jesus was a sinner.
I'm interested in what evidence that you have Harmonius.

BigRed [PM if you prefer]

I've listed many of them elsewhere, particularly evil speech, disrespect of his mother, disrespect to elders and Torah scholars, and humiliation of others.

I'm not out to make much out of Jesus' sinning habits, at present.

I was just saying that if the Romans forced Jesus to carry his cross on Shabbat, that carrying the cross was not a sin. It wouldn't have been, either for him, or for any other Jew in similar circumstances.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think that Jesus was a Sinner.
Was Jesus a Sinner?
Throughout History some have questioned if Jesus was a sinner or not????
John 2:14-15
And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Those that sold animals were providing a service to those who came a distance and needed an animal to sacrifice in the temple.
The money changers changed money for people who came to worship and pay the tithe and only had foreign money.
Their functions were legal and sanctioned by the levitical priests.

He drove the money changers out of the temple by beating them with a "scourge of cords." Assault and Battery.
He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Destruction of Property.

Was this behavior by Jesus a sin? I think so.

I have several other passages in mind where Jesus was a sinner.
I'm interested in what evidence that you have Harmonius.

BigRed [PM if you prefer]

Just for the sake of argument -

1) There's no indication that he hit anyone with the cords

2) There's also no indication that any property was destroyed

 

[Harmonious]

But he's facilitating his own murder.

It bought him a few more hours of life. It was worth it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It bought him a few more hours of life. It was worth it.

I wonder if he would agree. The hauling of the cross bought him 9 hours of terrible torture before he finally died.

 

[Harmonious]

Just for the sake of argument -

1) There's no indication that he hit anyone with the cords

I'm not sure about that. Poisonshady showed me that there was indication that he DID hit people with the cords.

2) There's also no indication that any property was destroyed

Overturning the tables, scattering the money, scattering the animals...

Nothing might have been destroyed, per se, but a court of law would have awarded "damages" to the people whose day Jesus destroyed because of his tantrum. So close to Passover, and all those people...

 

[Harmonious]

I wonder if he would agree. The hauling of the cross bought him 9 hours of terrible torture before he finally died.

Life is life. It wasn't fun, but he had the opportunity to pray, to repent his sins, to give comfort to the people around him...

It wasn't fun, I'm sure, but he had the opportunity to perform a few more commandments with those dearly bought hours, thereby earning himself a bit more merit.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not sure about that. Poisonshady showed me that there was indication that he DID hit people with the cords.


Overturning the tables, scattering the money, scattering the animals...

Nothing might have been destroyed, per se, but a court of law would have awarded "damages" to the people whose day Jesus destroyed because of his tantrum. So close to Passover, and all those people...

I dunno. This is a little petty for a court of law - I've actually been studying that in some detail. Unless Jesus knocked over the tables and stole the money, there's not enough loss to cover the cost of a trial and there's no loss other than perhaps a scratched table (I suspect they already had a good deal of wear) and some scared livestock. And Jesus was poor, so there was nothing to gain from a suit.

 

[fallingblood]

It would be working on the Sabbath.

I'm sure you'll recall that men could not carry a heavy load or walk a certain distance on the Sabbath.

It's a strict interpretation, I know, but it's possible.

I'm sure with some ultra-conservatives, or people who simply have a major axe to grind with Jesus, could see it as a sin. I would agree with you on that.

But if I was pointing out sins that Jesus committed, this one wouldn't be there. Jesus may have on a technicality broken the Sabbath. But then again, millions of Jews are guilty of the same during the Holocaust. I don't think they can be blamed for that. At that point, I don't think the laws are that important. Mainly because I don't think that the laws are meant to hamper a persons life. I don't think anyone could blame a person for ignoring the laws when the laws would burden that person unnecessarily.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not sure about that. Poisonshady showed me that there was indication that he DID hit people with the cords.

I'd love to see the verse for that. I have a feeling that if it exists, it's not in the New Testament.

 

[fallingblood]

I dunno. This is a little petty for a court of law - I've actually been studying that in some detail. Unless Jesus knocked over the tables and stole the money, there's not enough loss to cover the cost of a trial and there's no loss other than perhaps a scratched table (I suspect they already had a good deal of wear) and some scared livestock. And Jesus was poor, so there was nothing to gain from a suit.

I would agree with you. In addition to that though, I don't think the scene he made in the court was actually that major in scale.

The main reason being that the courtyard was massive, and without a small army, there is little possibility that he could have ceased operation there.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I would agree with you. In addition to that though, I don't think the scene he made in the court was actually that major in scale.

The main reason being that the courtyard was massive, and without a small army, there is little possibility that he could have ceased operation there.

Well I don't think that it even happened.

 

[Harmonious]

I dunno. This is a little petty for a court of law - I've actually been studying that in some detail.

That depends on what the witnesses brought.

Unless Jesus knocked over the tables and stole the money, there's not enough loss to cover the cost of a trial

A trial in a Jewish ecclesiastic court does not cost anything but the fines one may or may not have to pay if the suit is lost.

and there's no loss other than perhaps a scratched table (I suspect they already had a good deal of wear)

The table wasn't the issue. The money all over the very busy floor is the problem.

and some scared livestock.

If the animals ran away so that the people selling them couldn't retrieve them, that could be a heavy financial loss on the part of the sellers.

And Jesus was poor, so there was nothing to gain from a suit.

Money isn't the only penalty that could have been dealt.

If the financial debt he would have incurred because of his tantrum would have been more than he could have handled, he could have served as an indentured servant until he paid off his debt.

The loss of time and money to the thousands of Jews waiting to get their money changed and their animals for the Passover offerings was not something negligible.

Of course, THAT is never highlighted by the texts of the gospels...

 

[Harmonious]

I'd love to see the verse for that. I have a feeling that if it exists, it's not in the New Testament.

It would have to have been. But even if he didn't actually use the cords on people, the chaos that he caused would have been severely problematic.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It would have to have been.

Well, the NT is not the only text that preserves stories about Jesus. Some of them are quite disturbing --- in one he (as a child) kills a kid for breaking something he made out of mud.

Not the warm and fuzzy Jesus that we know and love. :angel2:

 

[Harmonious]

I would agree with you. In addition to that though, I don't think the scene he made in the court was actually that major in scale.

Except for one thing. It was more or less the week before Passover, when thousands of Jews came from all over, to purchase and prepare their animals for the holiday.

If the Jews coming in internationally were stuck, and could not change their money, there were thousands of people who were seriously inconvenienced by this tantrum.

You aren't really thinking of the scenario from the Jews' perspective, particularly not from someone who might have been a potential buyer or seller, or come in internationally.

On a daily basis, you are right. It might not have been as big a deal. If Jesus did what the gospels say he did, he caused major chaos right before Passover.

If I actually believed the gospels gave an accurate rendition of history, I would never be able to forgive Jesus for that.

 

[BigRed]

Just for the sake of argument -

1) There's no indication that he hit anyone with the cords

2) There's also no indication that any property was destroyed

He "drove" the people out of the Temple Area.
He spilled out their coins on the ground. Don't you suppose that coins might have been lost or stolen?

IMO Jesus conduct may have started a RIOT.

BigRed

 

[Harmonious]

Well, the NT is not the only text that preserves stories about Jesus. Some of them are quite disturbing --- in one he (as a child) kills a kid for breaking something he made out of mud.

Not the warm and fuzzy Jesus that we know and love. :angel2:

Interesting. However, I don't care enough about the life and times of Jesus to hunt down stories just to show how much of a jerk he was.

The stories in the gospels are more than enough to let me know I want nothing to do with him.

 

[Harmonious]

He "drove" the people out of the Temple Area.
He spilled out their coins on the ground. Don't you suppose that coins might have been lost or stolen?

IMO Jesus conduct may have started a RIOT.

BigRed

Precisely.