What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[sbfx]

I did not see where John made it clear that Christ was crucified before the Passover meal. I reviewed and found Christ had the Passover meal with his disciples in all four gospels. Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:16-25; Lk. 22:14-20; Jn. 13:1-12. I do understand your point about the authors not writing the gospels with the "intent" of them being compared and contrasted, but I don't see the problem in doing so to better understand the content. God encourages us to do so, right? I am now on page 43 of this thread, so please forgive me if I am restating a point made by someone else. Boy, is there a lot to read on here. Enjoying it.

 

[fallingblood]

I did not see where John made it clear that Christ was crucified before the Passover meal. I reviewed and found Christ had the Passover meal with his disciples in all four gospels. Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:16-25; Lk. 22:14-20; Jn. 13:1-12. I do understand your point about the authors not writing the gospels with the "intent" of them being compared and contrasted, but I don't see the problem in doing so to better understand the content. God encourages us to do so, right? I am now on page 43 of this thread, so please forgive me if I am restating a point made by someone else. Boy, is there a lot to read on here. Enjoying it.

John 13:1-12 is not a Passover meal. John 13:1 states that it was before that Passover festival. We don't know how long, but the point seems to be that Passover had not yet started. Actually, throughout the last supper in John, it is never called a Passover meal.

John 18:28 tells us that Passover had not yet occurred. John 19:14 tells us that the day in which Jesus was crucified, was the day before Passover.

I agree, comparing and contrasting the Gospels is not a bad thing in theory. I do the same with my studies into the life of Jesus. However, each narrative also has to remain separate. If Mark says something, one can't assume that Matthew knew of that saying as well. And when comparing and contrasting, if a contradiction shows up, it usually can't just be smoothed over, it needs to dealt with in context. If it looks like a contradiction, it most likely is.

 

[sbfx]

To the best of my knowledge, according to my studies, Christ ate the Passover meal on Tuesday (Nisan 14), then was betrayed by Judas and brought before the high priest that night. Then on Wednesday, which was the preparation day for the annual Holy Day, Christ died around 3pm and His body was placed in a tomb before sunset. Then came Thursday, the Holy Day, first day of Unleavened Bread, which is the day after the "Day of Preparation". Friday, after the Holy Day had passed, the women bought and prepared spices for the anointing before resting on the Sabbath. Saturday, the Sabbath, a day of rest of course. Christ rose near sunset, three days and three nights after burial. Sunday, the women brought the spices in the early morning, still dark, and Christ was gone.

 

[sbfx]

It is not the Passover meal? V-1 "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come..." V-2 "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;" V-5 states that Christ poured water into a basin and washed his disciples feet. Is this not apart of the Passover ritual instituted by Christ? What follows this meal in John, as with this meal in the other three accounts? Judas, men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees went there to get him... So I do not understand why it is not the Passover meal.

 

[sbfx]

To my understanding, Christ was crucified after the Passover, but before the first Day of Unleavened Bread.

 

[Harmonious]

To my understanding, Christ was crucified after the Passover, but before the first Day of Unleavened Bread.

Not you, too.

I'm going to share a couple of posts that actually explain the concept of timing on the Jewish calendar.

You can't leave out the 15th.

Look at it this way:

The 7 day festival known as Passover is kicked off by the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th of Nisan.


Again:

Exodus 12:8
They shall eat the flesh on that night - roasted over the fire - and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs shall they eat it.


Exodus 12:14-16
This day shall become a remembrance for you and you shall celebrate it as a festival for the Lord; for your generations, as an eternal decree shall you celebrate it. For a seven-day period shall you eat unleavened bread, but on the previous day you shall nullify the leaven from your homes; for anyone who eats leavened food- that soul shall be cut off from Israel, from the first day to the seventh day.

On the first day shall be a holy convocation and on the seventh day shall be a holy convocation for you, no work may be done on them, except for what must be eaten for any person - only that may be done for you.

Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening shall you eat matzos, until the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.


From 15 to 21 is 7 days. And we learn from verse 12:15 that the leaven is nullified on the previous day. Which is why Matzah will be eaten from the 14th teill the 21st. But the Feast... that's on the 15th... the day of holy convocation. That's when the lamb that was slaughtered during the daytime was eaten.

 

[Harmonious]

No. There IS no High Day, Sabbath. This day you are trying to create doesn't exist except in your heart and mind.
Look -

Sometimes, holidays are called Shabbat, but attempting to make Shabbat Hagadol something other than an actual Friday night-to-Saturday-night Sabbath is what we call bad fiction.

Here is another one that will build to get you where you need to be.

 

[smokydot]

To my understanding, Christ was crucified after the Passover, but before the first Day of Unleavened Bread.

The issue is a seeming contradiction between Mk 14:12 and Jn 19:14, which is resolved, following link,

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2303344-post1160.html

and shows that Jesus died on Friday, Nissan 15, the day after Passover, which was the first day of Unleavened Bread, Nissan 15-21.

Jesus both participated in the Passover meal the evening before, and then fulfilled its shadow (representation) of the reality in him

when he was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb (1 Co 5:7) the next day, all on Nissan 15.

 

[Harmonious]

This, perhaps, is one of the more useful ones with a lot of information about how the Jewish calendar works.

No, the Passover lamb was sacrificed and roasted in the evening of the 14th (before Mincha time) and it was eaten that evening which would have been the 15th of Nissan.

This day of preparation... Dude, if you actually understood what Jews DO in preparation for Passover, this would not be such an issue, except for those who wish to believe whatever they will to make their agenda of believing what they will about Jesus work.

On the 14th of Nissan, Jews have to stop eating Chametz, or simplistically, leavened bread. Thus, it is IN PREPARATION, yes, but it isn't a special holiday.

It is a day that the First Born Jews fast, in commemoration of the fact that the first born of the Egyptians died in the plague, but the Jews were NOT killed. It's still not a special holiday.

During Temple times, people brought their lambs for the Passover offering and the Chagiga offering to be slaughtered and processed before Mincha (afternoon daily offering and prayer service) on the 14th, so that they could be prepared for dinner that night, which would be the 15th.

If you want to say that "people made a day of it," as the whole day was spent in preparation for Passover, I'll buy that. (Which, frankly, makes Jesus' whole turning of the money-tables entirely unforgivable, and it is a sin Jesus committed that will forever make me despise the mention of the man.)

But no, it was never a special, separate holiday. It is only so in the hearts and minds of Christians who don't bother with what Jews ACTUALLY do, or HAVE done, but wish to continue to propagate misbegotten ideas that were spawned from bad translations to start with.

If the evidence is clear that Jesus ate the Passover meal, that would have been the 15th. When the sun rose, it would ALSO have been the 15th.

If the idea is being spread that Jesus ate a meal that was not the 15th of Nissan, it was clearly not a Passover seder.

You can't have it both ways, no matter what you wish to believe.

I just addressed this. If it was before the 15th, it wasn't Passover.


What I DO want is to clarify when Passover is. If Jesus ate a big meal before Passover, cool. If the meal Jesus had was a Passover seder, good for him. It's no skin off my nose, either way.

But don't try to remake the Jewish calendar to fix a textual problem you have if the gospels didn't manage to make everything nice and neat.


Passover is only as I've described it. If you have come up with anything else... It could be Charlie, it could be Shirley, but it WON'T be Passover.
Sometimes Passover is referred to as Pesach, and sometimes it is referred to as the Holiday of Matza.

Believing that Passover is some other bizarre thing because you are caught up in bad translations... would explain a lot, but it doesn't mean that you have a clue about what Passover IS, or when it is.

 

[Harmonious]

To my understanding, Christ was crucified after the Passover, but before the first Day of Unleavened Bread.

In short, Passover and the Day of Unleavened Bread are one and the same day.

Therefore, Jesus could not be crucified both before and after the same day.

The fact that you say so only shows that you are ignorant of how the Jewish calendar (particularly Passover) works.

It's the fault of the gospels, as they couldn't agree on the same story to keep straight.

I don't particularly care what day Jesus was supposed to be crucified on, but the day cannot be "after Passover" but "before the Day of Unleavened Bread", because the two are just different names for the same day.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

:disco:

 

[fallingblood]

To the best of my knowledge, according to my studies, Christ ate the Passover meal on Tuesday (Nisan 14), then was betrayed by Judas and brought before the high priest that night. Then on Wednesday, which was the preparation day for the annual Holy Day, Christ died around 3pm and His body was placed in a tomb before sunset. Then came Thursday, the Holy Day, first day of Unleavened Bread, which is the day after the "Day of Preparation". Friday, after the Holy Day had passed, the women bought and prepared spices for the anointing before resting on the Sabbath. Saturday, the Sabbath, a day of rest of course. Christ rose near sunset, three days and three nights after burial. Sunday, the women brought the spices in the early morning, still dark, and Christ was gone.

Each Gospel tells us that Jesus died on a Friday. The synoptics tell us that it was before the Sabbath, on Passover. Jesus had to be taken down off the cross because the Sabbath (starting at Friday at sundown) was close at hand.

John says that Jesus was killed on the day before Passover, before the Sabbath. Again, this would be a Friday.

For John, Passover would have been eaten Friday night. For Mark, Matthew, and Luke, it would have been eaten Thursday night.

 

[fallingblood]

To my understanding, Christ was crucified after the Passover, but before the first Day of Unleavened Bread.

Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are the same. They were interchangeable at the time (Luke mentions it specifically) and are also interchangeable today. Passover was the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and thus could be called the first day of such.

 

[fallingblood]

It is not the Passover meal? V-1 "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come..." V-2 "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;" V-5 states that Christ poured water into a basin and washed his disciples feet. Is this not apart of the Passover ritual instituted by Christ? What follows this meal in John, as with this meal in the other three accounts? Judas, men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees went there to get him... So I do not understand why it is not the Passover meal.

Verse one only tells us specifically that Passover had not yet begun. Throughout the rest of the account, no mention of Passover is mentioned. We are only told that the day in which they are eating the Last Supper was before Passover.

More so, we are told later that Passover had not yet occurred. John 18:28 tells us that specifically. John 19:14 then tells us that Jesus was sentenced and crucified on the day of Preparation of Passover. Which tells us clearly that Passover had not yet occurred.

 

[fallingblood]

To my understanding, Christ was crucified after the Passover, but before the first Day of Unleavened Bread.

Harmonious has done a great job of posting the relevant material. She, as well as Poisonshady, who Harmonious quoted, are very well informed on this subject. Smokydot on the other hand, has been shown to be both dishonest, and ignorant on the subject. He has been shown to twist the evidence to fit his ideas, which simply shouldn't be done.

 

[smokydot]

Harmonious has done a great job of posting the relevant material. She, as well as Poisonshady, who Harmonious quoted, are very well informed on this subject. Smokydot on the other hand, has been shown to be both dishonest, and ignorant on the subject. He has been shown to twist the evidence to fit his ideas, which simply shouldn't be done.

A derailment from the one who complains about derailing his thread! ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318652-post514.html

How rich the irony!. . .and the dishonest bias!. . .the last refuge of a non-argument! . .

not to mention you are the source for one of the facts presented in the post you are trying to discredit (post following, below, #1377). . .

just shot yourself in the foot on that one!

These false charges wouldn't be your lame rebuttal to this calling out of your buddy, now would it? ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318652-post514.html?

Oh, how funny! . .if you can't hunt with the big dogs. . .just stay on the porch!

If sbfx has any knowledge of the Scriptures, he can judge for himself whether mine is an accurate presentation of them in the following post, below, #1377.

This is hilarious!!! . .I am absolutely doubled over here!

It really chaps you guys that someone actually knows the Scriptures. . .which you both make all too evident that you do not.

This is all you got? . .if it weren't for unbelief, you would have nuthin'!

 

[smokydot]

In short, Passover and the Day of Unleavened Bread are one and the same day.

Actually, according to the OT Scriptures, Lev 23:5-6, Passover was on Nissan 14, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread was Nissan 15-21.

However, the Passover lamb was only slaughtered on Nissan 14.
It was not eaten in the Passover meal until that night, which was Nissan 15, the first day of Unleavened Bread.
(I have fallingblood and Harmonious to thank for finally getting me straight on my long oversight on that point.)

So when you refer to "Passover," in the NT that can be understood to mean two things:

1) the day they ate the Passover meal, which is Nissan 15, the day after the actual Passover prescribed on Nissan 14, in Lev 23:5; or

2) the whole week of Unleavened Bread, Nissan 15-21, in which they ate the Passover meal on its first day.

You have to sort all that out, sbfx, to get it straight. . .in addition to sorting out the seeming contradiction between Mk 14:12 and Jn 19:14,

which are reconciled here: ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2303344-post1160.html

When you sort it all out, the NT reports that Jesus died on Friday, Nissan 15, the day before the Saturday Sabbath in Passover week.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Harmonious has done a great job of posting the relevant material. She, as well as Poisonshady, who Harmonious quoted, are very well informed on this subject. Smokydot on the other hand, has been shown to be both dishonest, and ignorant on the subject. He has been shown to twist the evidence to fit his ideas, which simply shouldn't be done.

That's putting it a bit too lightly. He fabricates "evidence" to fit his ideas...

 

[smokydot]

That's putting it a bit too lightly. He fabricates "evidence" to fit his ideas...

Double-teamin' not too obvious here. . .and you're dumb enough to think evidence can be "fabricated" from either the written Bibilical record, or the written record here? . .man, that's pathetic. . .that's an insult to the readers, saying they are as dumb as you are, and can't tell from the written Biblical record whether the quoted verses are "fabricated" or not, or can't tell from the written record here whether evidence is "fabricated" or not. . .just how dumb is that?

You both got nuthin'!

Game above is over. . .to the showers ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318652-post514.html

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Game over. . .to the showers ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318652-post514.html

Spam.