What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[Saint Frankenstein]

On the scale that they are happening now?
Please, I welcome that evidence. Can you provide it?

Yes, it's normal for the rate of earthquakes to fluctuate: Why are we having so many earthquakes? Has naturally occurring earthquake activity been increasing? Does this mean a big one is going to hit? OR We haven't had any earthquakes in a long time; does this mean that the pressure is building up for a big one?

Climate change has nothing to do with plate techtonics, as far as I know

 

[Spartan]

Where's your evidence that Ming the Merciless, of the planet Mongo, didn't cause them? I've seen Ming in movies, so that's at least as plausible.

What kind of argument is "you can't prove X so X must be true?" I could give you trillions of those, with enough time, and they would each and every one be completely meaningless.

Sadly for you, the cause of earthquakes is pretty well understood these days, based on the plate tectonics and other sciences I mentioned. There do not appear to be any instances where there was a requirement for God. Just to be clear, nobody has ever recorded an earthquake where there are no known underlying fractures in the earth's mantle, and so forth. So to say that "God only creates earthquakes in places that the earth's crust is already set up to have them" doesn't actually give God a lot of credit for ability.

You don't know what God can and can't do. You don't have that supernatural insight (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I know from the examples already in the Bible what God can do.

 

[Augustus]

In other words, is it not possible that we might have a better world today had Jesus not been born? I mean, I can imagine worlds in which the religiously-dominated dark ages of Europe, the Reformation, the Counter Reformation, and all the religious wars didn't happen. I can imagine worlds in which the Christian authority didn't try to shut down Galileo, had listened to Giordano Bruno, and be much, much further ahead now. Can't you?

Being able to imagine something, and it being possible, doesn't make it probable though.

There are 2 major themes in the way people look at this:

1. Seeing as the rise of modern Western values of scientific rationalism and humanism are inevitable, what are the things that prevented them developing sooner?

2. Given that there is no purpose or direction to human history, what were the unique and contingent conditions that enabled the development and persistence of these values in Western culture?

The first option is a faith based position (ironically borrowing the teleological view of history from Christianity), yet seems to be very common among Rationalists.

It is very hard to make a case for the 2nd without also noting the influence of Christianity on the development of science, human rights, and even secularism. While Christian apologists often overstate the case, and minimise additional influences, Humanists tend to adopt the 'anything but Christianity' approach, often based on outdated ideas long rejected by secular historical scholarship. The idea that the single biggest influence on European society for 2000 years did not play a major role in creating the values of the modern West also seems quite fantastical, especially as we can see them developing in Christian contexts long before the Enlightenment where some people seem to think they magically appeared out of a vacuum (a virgin birth ).

(btw, the idea of the Dark Ages has long been rejected by scholars, Bruno was a mystic, not a rational scientist, and Galileo's ideas were also rejected by most scientists at that time, had there been a scientific consensus, the church would have revised their position)

 

[MJFlores]

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

That is a little bit short selling....
And on the 3rd day, God raised him from the dead and now seated at the right hand of God in heaven.

Ephesians 1:18-21 New International Version (NIV)
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve?

The Lord Jesus Christ achieved many things - everything we see, everything in this universe was created because of him and him alone. There is always a purpose why God created this and that but only a few people know that God created everything not for somebody else but for the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this fact is mentioned in:

Hebrews 1:2 New International Version (NIV)
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Who is the Son of God? That is the Lord Jesus Christ.
According to the bible - Jesus Christ is the appointed heir of all things
And Jesus Christ is the reason he made the universe

God made that for Jesus Christ - isn't that something or what?

John 1:3 New International Version (NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

In other words - God created everything through the Lord Jesus Christ in mind.
The smallest thing to the largest thing - where all created through Jesus Christ.
Every microscopic thing exists because of Jesus
The largest star or galaxy exist because of Jesus
Isn't that cool or what?

Romans 11:36 New International Version (NIV)
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Colossians 1:16 New International Version (NIV)
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Everything was created for the Lord Jesus Christ
Because God created everything through His Son, Jesus Christ
and no one else but for him.

Be it things in heaven

Be it things on earth

Even the governments of the world
are all created for the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the Lord Jesus Christ mentioned
in the Bible

Could Mohammad top that?
What does the Koran say?

 

[loverofhumanity]

That was the purpose of the teachings, but reality in this world is something different.

Yes true. That’s why God keeps sending us Teachers and Educators.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The time I have spent in various Christian churches, I have not witnessed what you speak of here. Pretty much the opposite.
If only what you speak of were true, we would have are far better world to live in.

That’s free will. People have the choice of obeying or disobeying and God leaves us to learn from our mistakes. I think we have learned a lot but there’s still a lot more to learn.

 

[Rival]

Beliefs don't count in this thread, people, they don't count.

 

[Augustus]

Beliefs don't count in this thread, people, they don't count.

The problem is you answered your question in your OP

Same with all of the people you mentioned, it was their followers/successors who spread their beliefs widely (although they were likely more well known in their lifetimes).

 

[Thief]

Sometimes I wonder if the parables are actually describing Jesus and all of his Freudian issues.

I mean, Jesus leaves his parents and goes lolly-gagging around the countryside while his siblings are irritated he's not pulling his weight in the family....

yes of course.....and if you like we can do a thread about the Holy Family

 

[Thief]

Beliefs don't count in this thread, people, they don't count.

yeah well……..here we are.....Religious Forums ….

and though the word belief is not in the title of this discussion.....
it kinda is

 

[Rival]

yeah well……..here we are.....Religious Forums ….

and though the word belief is not in the title of this discussion.....
it kinda is

Historical Jesus discussion too lacklustre? I should not really compare Jesus history to King William I or such, but I am. I know why William is famous and we have information and outside sources for what he did. Jesus seems to be famous for being famous.

 

[Thief]

Historical Jesus discussion too lacklustre? I should not really compare Jesus history to King William I or such, but I am. I know why William is famous and we have information and outside sources for what he did. Jesus seems to be famous for being famous.

I would say yeah and frame that with the motivation most believers exhibit....
they want to go to heaven

so there's a lot of dogma to sort through
miracles and events...….

but of course the primary play of a prophet type character would be is teachings

His parables are the saving grace

 

[Woberts]

Since no one has said anything of value yet, is it safe to say 'nothing?'

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Where's your evidence God didn't cause those earthquakes? You say he can't? Based on what?

I did not say he can't, I said you have zero evidence that he ever did cause those earthquakes. You have no evidence, by the way, that God didn't personally warp the minds of John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy. I'll bet you even agree that he could if he wanted to! So why don't you believe that to be true, as well?

So my very simple question is this: why, in the absence of any evidence at all, and with some actual understanding of the sciences of plate tectonics and psychology, do you suppose God did it in one case, and didn't in the other? That certainly seems to be an inconsistent way of reasoning, in my opinion.

 

[Spartan]

I did not say he can't, I said you have zero evidence that he ever did cause those earthquakes. You have no evidence, by the way, that God didn't personally warp the minds of John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy. I'll bet you even agree that he could if he wanted to! So why don't you believe that to be true, as well?

Because that's not the character of God in the Bible. Attribute it to Satan instead. That's his nature.

So my very simple question is this: why, in the absence of any evidence at all, and with some actual understanding of the sciences of plate tectonics and psychology, do you suppose God did it in one case, and didn't in the other? That certainly seems to be an inconsistent way of reasoning, in my opinion.

It was enlightening when reading both the Old and New Testaments to read about all the things that God did and could do. Hundreds of examples. And why should or could I believe God can do such things? In many cases it fits history. Jerusalem was sacked 30-40 years after it was prophesied. The more you read the more examples of things like that you'll find. Hope that somewhat answers your question.

 

[Thief]

Since no one has said anything of value yet, is it safe to say 'nothing?'

there is a parable called the Wedding Feast
and one of the characters had nothing to say when questioned

that character was bound hand and foot and thrown into the outer darkness
for a weeping and gnashing of teeth

so.....what happens when you critique a line of discussion?
and then choose to say nothing

 

[MJFlores]

Beliefs don't count in this thread, people, they don't count.

Historical Jesus discussion too lacklustre?

What year is it today?

I wonder why is it so?
Do you think Mohammad has something to do with this?

 

[Sleeppy]

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve? I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime. That the impact was either good or bad is not my point here, but that had had one. Baha'u'llah had some direct impacts, if small, upon his society. In contrast, I can't think of anything Jesus did that no-one else could have done.

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

This is probably going to turn into an 'It was all Paul not Jesus' thread, but have at it anyway.

Do you have any examples for Muhammad and Baha'u'llah?

 

[Salvador]

Mara Bar Serapion likely referred to Jesus Christ as the "wise king" whom the Jews executed ; this according to a letter Mara bar Serapion wrote to his son when according to most scholars, Mara bar Serapion was held in captivity within Roman occupied Syria near the time of 72 A.D...

 

[MJFlores]

I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime.

What Did Jesus Actually Do?
Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Friday at 10:40 PM.

Answer: He did not marry. He awaits his bride, his Church on Judgement Day.

What Did Muhammad Actually Do?

Answer: He had 11 wives. I don't know if you call that an achievement. Having one wife is one wife too many.