What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[sojourner]

Historical Fiction? Like the film Gladiator?

Kind of. The ancients told history as embellished story, unlike the way in which we write history. They were concerned more with major cultural shifts than factual minutia.

 

[sojourner]

So Harry Potter contains reality (Alnwick Castle) so by your reckoning they are not fictional books.

You believe they are not fiction despite admitting they are fictional at least in parts

I believe they are fictional with some reality (incidental names and places)., Why i believe this is... the contradictory scriptures, the total lack of evidence, the alternative explanations (with more evidence than the contradictory circular scriptures) and basic logic.

They are works of Fiction. The Gospels are ... Gospels. Both contain factual details and both contain fictional details.

 

[sojourner]

Myth are fiction. I know of no myths that are not, but there may be factual myths
Gospels are fiction, see above
Biographies are generally not made up, those that are are usually trashed along with the authors reputation
History can be made up if facts are scanty or national revisionism is in play. I know several such instances.

So again you agree (in a round about way (again)).

To be honest i am getting rather bored with this 'they are not fact but they are not fiction' scenario.

Myth is myth and fiction is fiction. I’m talking about literary genres. Again, it’s more about intent than content.

 

[oldbadger]

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve?

Hang on........... do you want to know what he did, or what he achieved? Your title's question changed in the very first sentence of the OP.

I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime. That the impact was either good or bad is not my point here, but that had had one. Baha'u'llah had some direct impacts, if small, upon his society. In contrast, I can't think of anything Jesus did that no-one else could have done.

So what other people did hundreds and thousands of years after Jesus, is causing you difficulty in focusing upon the research about what Jesus did...? Have got that right?

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

So you have not spent any time at all in researching what Jesus did...... all you have guessed at is that he was a real person.

This is probably going to turn into an 'It was all Paul not Jesus' thread, but have at it anyway.

Not it won't! You have asked not about Christianity, you have asked about Jesus.

I don't think that you actually want to hear what Jesus did, but I am confident that he picked up the Baptist's mission after John got arrested, and he carried it forward for about 11-12 months. Until you've researched the Baptist's mission you won't get very far with Jesus's.

Jesus tried (and failed) to raise real support around Galilee and so took the massive risk of trying to raise strong support during a Great (Passover) Feast at the Temple.

From there the possibilities divide. One Jesus, son of the Father, got arrested for demonstrating and rioting in the city (and/or Temple) but the people loved him so much that he was released by the Prefect. One Jesus, son of Man, demonstrated and picketed the Temple Courts two days running and got arrested and he was crucified for a few hours before being taken down..... he may have died, or could have survived.... we'll never know now.

And both the Priesthood and the people thought that one of these was so amazing as to be a sorcerer...... you've approved the basis of this point on another thread in recent days, I think?.

EDIT: Just to be sure, I returned to check a post left by @Tumah on another thread, previously 'liked' by you and another member. But all 'likes' have been removed from the whole page now, and so I felt the need to make mention of this here. You may have changed your mind later? But it seems strange that all the likes have disappeared.

 

[Spartan]

They are works of Fiction. The Gospels are ... Gospels. Both contain factual details and both contain fictional details.

Nonsense. Show me your best three examples of alleged fiction in the Gospels. Cite the pertinent scriptures and make your case for each.

 

[Rival]

Hang on........... do you want to know what he did, or what he achieved? Your title's question changed in the very first sentence of the OP.

It's the tone of voice in the title: What did Jesus actually do? and then I clarify in my OP: What has Jesus done to make himself the most revered man in history, from a historical standpoint?

So what other people did hundreds and thousands of years after Jesus, is causing you difficulty in focusing upon the research about what Jesus did...? Have got that right?

I am making a comparison. Those others actually did something within their own lifetimes that changed the fabric of society in a way I don't need to believe - I don't need to be a Muslim, for example, to see why Muhammad is a figure of historical importance who earned his place in history. I can't see what Jesus did within his own lifetime, from a historic standpoint, that compares to anything like this.

So you have not spent any time at all in researching what Jesus did...... all you have guessed at is that he was a real person.

I read the Gospels when I was a Christian and did extra-Biblical research and I sill don't consider anything he apparently did particularly noteworthy.

Not it won't! You have asked not about Christianity, you have asked about Jesus.

I was being facetious.

I don't think that you actually want to hear what Jesus did, but I am confident that he picked up the Baptist's mission after John got arrested, and he carried it forward for about 11-12 months. Until you've researched the Baptist's mission you won't get very far with Jesus's.

Enlighten me.

Jesus tried (and failed) to raise real support around Galilee and so took the massive risk of trying to raise strong support during a Great (Passover) Feast at the Temple.

So? This is what rabble rousers tend to do - they rouse rabbles.

From there the possibilities divide. One Jesus, son of the Father, got arrested for demonstrating and rioting in the city (and/or Temple) but the people loved him so much that he was released by the Prefect. One Jesus, son of Man, demonstrated and picketed the Temple Courts two days running and got arrested and he was crucified for a few hours before being taken down..... he may have died, or could have survived.... we'll never know now.

This again seems like your belief; in any case, nothing enough to make one the huge figure that Jesus is today, and does it justify being talked about 2000 years later?

And both the Priesthood and the people thought that one of these was so amazing as to be a sorcerer...... you've approved the basis of this point on another thread in recent days, I think?.

Being thought to be a sorcerer doesn't really make you special; there were plenty of such running around, along with faith healers and lay preachers. Even if this were the thinking - and I think it was - why should Jesus being thought to be a sorcerer make him one of the biggest historical figures ever?

EDIT: Just to be sure, I returned to check a post left by @Tumah on another thread, previously 'liked' by you and another member. But all 'likes' have been removed from the whole page now, and so I felt the need to make mention of this here. You may have changed your mind later? But it seems strange that all the likes have disappeared.

I haven't ever deleted any of my likes on Tumah's posts, and mods can't remove likes either, so possibly you are mistaken.

 

[ChristineM]

They are works of Fiction. The Gospels are ... Gospels. Both contain factual details and both contain fictional details.

Both are ficticious

 

[ChristineM]

Myth is myth and fiction is fiction. I’m talking about literary genres. Again, it’s more about intent than content.

Still ficticious

 

[oldbadger]

It's the tone of voice in the title: What did Jesus actually do? and then I clarify in my OP: What has Jesus done to make himself the most revered man in history, from a historical standpoint?


I am making a comparison. Those others actually did something within their own lifetimes that changed the fabric of society in a way I don't need to believe - I don't need to be a Muslim, for example, to see why Muhammad is a figure of historical importance who earned his place in history. I can't see what Jesus did within his own lifetime, from a historic standpoint, that compares to anything like this.


I read the Gospels when I was a Christian and did extra-Biblical research and I sill don't consider anything he apparently did particularly noteworthy.


I was being facetious.


Enlighten me.


So? This is what rabble rousers tend to do - they rouse rabbles.


This again seems like your belief; in any case, nothing enough to make one the huge figure that Jesus is today, and does it justify being talked about 2000 years later?


Being thought to be a sorcerer doesn't really make you special; there were plenty of such running around, along with faith healers and lay preachers. Even if this were the thinking - and I think it was - why should Jesus being thought to be a sorcerer make him one of the biggest historical figures ever?


I haven't ever deleted any of my likes on Tumah's posts, and Staff can't remove likes either, so possibly you are mistaken.

Thanks for your reply.
It seems that we both may be in near agreement that while Jesus did have a mission, imo following on from the Baptist's mission, the whole Christianity religion began to spin in to being after Jesus. You don't want to discuss Paul and not do I so There is no problem with that either.

The Baptist's mission was against a completely corrupted, greedy, priesthood and disgraceful Temple practices and coinage. By offering cleansing and redemption in the Jordan, for free, he was cutting of the moneygoround in Jerusalem, the Temple, the lot.


Thanks for your guidance about ''likes'. I must have got that wrong and so apologise.

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense. Show me your best three examples of alleged fiction in the Gospels. Cite the pertinent scriptures and make your case for each.

For one thing, the earliest texts we have (Thess.) don’t mention a physical resurrection. Nor does Thomas. Nor does Q.
The Greek terms used for “resurrection” are anastasis, which means “standing up” and egeiro which means “getting up.” These are not theologically-charged words with special meanings reserved only for occurrences of religious rising from the dead. They are everyday words, used in a thousand different Greek households. “I stood up (anastasis) from bed this morning.”

Now you’re going to tell me that’s BS, and get busy citing several very conservative apologists who present their work “defending the Faith”; I don’t even know why I bother to ferret this stuff out for you; your confirmation bias is so high.

 

[sojourner]

Both are ficticious

But both are not Fiction. One is Gospel.

 

[sojourner]

Still ficticious

But still not Fiction. Fiction is a distinct literary genre with a completely different intention from Gospel.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve? I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime. That the impact was either good or bad is not my point here, but that had had one. Baha'u'llah had some direct impacts, if small, upon his society. In contrast, I can't think of anything Jesus did that no-one else could have done.

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

This is probably going to turn into an 'It was all Paul not Jesus' thread, but have at it anyway.

Muhammad, according to the standards of the world was a winner, as he had claimed loads of land and wives and possession. But he died like every other loser. No profound resurrection. He was a prophet who wound up worm food like Hosea, Moses, and all the others.

If we judge Jesus's success by historical success, nah. In fact, his name probably got the damnatio memoriae treatment (similar to how Egyptian pharaohs sometimes had their names wiped from records). He had to exist though, because people don't spontaneously become a sect without a leader. But yeah, he died in obscurity, having failed within his lifetime to make any dent.

Or did he? Muhammad's legacy was centuries of conquest, anyone who is an honest historian can tell you Islam means submission. But very little real advances besides their religion. No sorry, there are not 1001 advances in science, though there are many things they took credit for. But it created little impact on the quality of life.

But we're talking about actual advances. The US and Europe ended slave ownership, yet gets beat over the head for their involvement in the slave trade. Why are Muslims never called to pay reparations? They were also involved in the slave trade yet never did a thing to end it. In fact, the first thing that happened after Christianity is that Paul asks one of the slaves who has converted be freed. This was only years after Christ, ppl are thinking seriously about the ethics of slavery. And women, rather than being seen as shameful (ahem) are told that a husband's duty is to obey and cherish his wife. Rather than being part of a harem, women are gradually able to inherit property and to vote. And when we're talking about advances, here's one that happened in a Christian nation. The Magna Carta. Or how about the US Constitution (and yes, ppl will say that it's a secular document but here's the response to that: Does God Appear In The United States Constitution? ). Here's another. Medicine. It used to be that Christian missionaries and medics went hand in hand together overseas.

Even without these, let's look at Rome around the time of Jesus. It's a brutal efficient killing machine that regularly crucified ppl, that had perfected a tax system, and who had a military system that even had Jewish priests in its pocket (notice the coin the priests showed when Jesus said "render unto Caesar", it wasn't the Jewish coin given as tax, it was a Roman coin with Caesae's image and inscription ). And yet, after his death, people are noticeably unafraid to die. Christians are brought to the wine and circuses to fight wild animals or get tortured to renounce their faith, but they actually manage to make Roman converts. Suddenly, this system of conquest and terror is taken apart by the very people who are supposed to be like "yeah you guys are right, we were just imagining things" and who are supposed to be cowering. But they're not. Oppressive people always try to bully others into agreeing with their thinking, but they always collapse under their own excesses. Roman became decadent, and these Christians became such a force that many Roman officials were converts. Including much of the Roman guard. 40 centurions were made to stand in a freezing cold pond until they renounced Christ. Naked. They stripped willingly and went to the pond. It took centuries, but eventually the Roman Empire gets taken over by the Germans and becomes dismantled, as the Holy Roman Empire, a group of city-states that have relative autonomy. From there this Roman Empire gradually becomes separate nations with national identity.

I want you to take a look at what's going on now. Muslims have not changed in centuries, but neither has their quality of life. In fact, liberal areas where they have cultural relativism, and decided all immigrants are equal, are suddenly infested with bubonic plague and ebola. Meanwhile the West before this rush for immigration and globalism, believed in globalization, something completely different. They traded with other countries mixing ideas, and coming up with advance after advance. In the time of Jesus, ppl slept on the floor, and often lived in caves. By the 1800s they had beds with metal coils and heating for winter months. Now they have central HVAC systems, soft beds, bed bugs until recently (made a comeback) were largely just an expression.

One of these religions encouraged ppl to be seen as actual humans with creature comforts, and desire to buy things for themselves. The other had a leader who only cares for his OWN comfort.

 

[Rival]

Muhammad, according to the standards of the world was a winner, as he had claimed loads of land and wives and possession. But he died like every other loser. No profound resurrection. He was a prophet who wound up worm food like Hosea, Moses, and all the others.

If we judge Jesus's success by historical success, nah. In fact, his name probably got the damnatio memoriae treatment (similar to how Egyptian pharaohs sometimes had their names wiped from records). He had to exist though, because people don't spontaneously become a sect without a leader. But yeah, he died in obscurity, having failed within his lifetime to make any dent.

Or did he? Muhammad's legacy was centuries of conquest, anyone who is an honest historian can tell you Islam means submission. But very little real advances besides their religion. No sorry, there are not 1001 advances in science, though there are many things they took credit for. But it created little impact on the quality of life.

But we're talking about actual advances. The US and Europe ended slave ownership, yet gets beat over the head for their involvement in the slave trade. Why are Muslims never called to pay reparations? They were also involved in the slave trade yet never did a thing to end it. In fact, the first thing that happened after Christianity is that Paul asks one of the slaves who has converted be freed. This was only years after Christ, ppl are thinking seriously about the ethics of slavery. And women, rather than being seen as shameful (ahem) are told that a husband's duty is to obey and cherish his wife. Rather than being part of a harem, women are gradually able to inherit property and to vote. And when we're talking about advances, here's one that happened in a Christian nation. The Magna Carta. Or how about the US Constitution (and yes, ppl will say that it's a secular document but here's the response to that: Does God Appear In The United States Constitution? ). Here's another. Medicine. It used to be that Christian missionaries and medics went hand in hand together overseas.

Even without these, let's look at Rome around the time of Jesus. It's a brutal efficient killing machine that regularly crucified ppl, that had perfected a tax system, and who had a military system that even had Jewish priests in its pocket (notice the coin the priests showed when Jesus said "render unto Caesar", it wasn't the Jewish coin given as tax, it was a Roman coin with Caesae's image and inscription ). And yet, after his death, people are noticeably unafraid to die. Christians are brought to the wine and circuses to fight wild animals or get tortured to renounce their faith, but they actually manage to make Roman converts. Suddenly, this system of conquest and terror is taken apart by the very people who are supposed to be like "yeah you guys are right, we were just imagining things" and who are supposed to be cowering. But they're not. Oppressive people always try to bully others into agreeing with their thinking, but they always collapse under their own excesses. Roman became decadent, and these Christians became such a force that many Roman officials were converts. Including much of the Roman guard. 40 centurions were made to stand in a freezing cold pond until they renounced Christ. Naked. They stripped willingly and went to the pond. It took centuries, but eventually the Roman Empire gets taken over by the Germans and becomes dismantled, as the Holy Roman Empire, a group of city-states that have relative autonomy. From there this Roman Empire gradually becomes separate nations with national identity.

I want you to take a look at what's going on now. Muslims have not changed in centuries, but neither has their quality of life. In fact, liberal areas where they have cultural relativism, and decided all immigrants are equal, are suddenly infested with bubonic plague and ebola. Meanwhile the West before this rush for immigration and globalism, believed in globalization, something completely different. They traded with other countries mixing ideas, and coming up with advance after advance. In the time of Jesus, ppl slept on the floor, and often lived in caves. By the 1800s they had beds with metal coils and heating for winter months. Now they have central HVAC systems, soft beds, bed bugs until recently (made a comeback) were largely just an expression.

One of these religions encouraged ppl to be seen as actual humans with creature comforts, and desire to buy things for themselves. The other had a leader who only cares for his OWN comfort.

Again, this is about Jesus. Nothing to do with your moral senses or what his followers did, but what the historical Jesus achieved that should catapult him to such fame. You answered this: nah!

 

[sojourner]

Again, this is about Jesus. Nothing to do with your moral senses or what his followers did, but what the historical Jesus achieved that should catapult him to such fame. You answered this: nah!

Wait... are we talking about the historical Jesus, or the Jesus as presented in the church Tradition? They’re two different things, and we need to be very clear about which one we’re dealing with.

 

[Rival]

Wait... are we talking about the historical Jesus, or the Jesus as presented in the church Tradition? They’re two different things, and we need to be very clear about which one we’re dealing with.

Historical Jesus. I've said to multiple people on this thread that your beliefs don't count (unless they can be well substantiated). I want to know why Jesus should have a place in secular history and if so what did he do to earn it. This is why I compared him to Muhammad, who has an obvious place in secular history.

 

[ChristineM]

But both are not Fiction. One is Gospel.

You are entitled to your excuse if it appeases your sensibilities despite the fact that 4 times you have identified the gospels as at least partially fiction

 

[ChristineM]

But still not Fiction. Fiction is a distinct literary genre with a completely different intention from Gospel.

See above, i am done with this i say, you say argument. I have made my case, you have to so e extent agreed. End of story

 

[sojourner]

You are entitled to your excuse if it appeases your sensibilities despite the fact that 4 times you have identified the gospels as at least partially fiction

I haven’t ever referred to them as “fiction.” I feel I’ve been very clear on that point. I have said they’re partially fictional. Yet again (this is at least the third time I’ve stayed this; I can’t imagine why you’re ignoring it, unless it’s pure stubbornness), it’s more about intent than content. Fiction as a genre is intended to entertain. Gospel as a genre is intended to convey religious-cultural belief and meaning.

As a genre, the Gospel can contain fictional material and remain true to its intent. The fact that it contains fictional material does not diminish its integrity as a literary vehicle.

 

[sojourner]

Historical Jesus. I've said to multiple people on this thread that your beliefs don't count (unless they can be well substantiated). I want to know why Jesus should have a place in secular history and if so what did he do to earn it. This is why I compared him to Muhammad, who has an obvious place in secular history.

I’m not convinced that the historic Jesus did anything historically noteworthy, with the proviso that, were that the case, it’s unlikely he would have been mythologized. He likely did something that his contemporaries thought was historically noteworthy.